Or, they could just be a general douche bag like yourself and your pal. Then people can think that they are a dumbass no matter their license status.
Hey mods: less infractions and more banning!!!! (especially these two shitheads)
Or, they could just be a general douche bag like yourself and your pal. Then people can think that they are a dumbass no matter their license status.
Hey mods: less infractions and more banning!!!! (especially these two shitheads)
Psychological experiments suggest otherwise: if you divide a group along an artificial but clearly visible characteristic, the distinction incites discrimination. Especially so if one group gets some privileges.
In other words: it's the distinction that creates the idiots, not the other way around.
In the LFS community the license status is the distinction. That's inevitable with a commercial product and a demo version. But if you make the distinction clearly visible with a tag, you are enabling discrimination.
You may weed out the abusive posts, but there will be others that stays below the limit: not enough for a ban, but they still create a negative atmosphere.
I agree 100% with S14...
The devs mightn't care if someone is freeloading off of their hard work, but I do. Just like the Government mightn't care if there's 220,000 people on the dole (actual Irish statistic, out of 4,000,000 population) or that 20% of them are actually foreigners (another actual statistic. And couple that with the fact that 15% of the Irish population are also foreigners. Another class of freeloaders, but anyway...), I do, because that's my hard earned money that pays taxes, and pays them for nothing. Same dealy here. My money has supported the devs (to be brutally honest), yet someone comes along and freeloads off of that.
And as said in the other thread, those that say they can't afford it really haven't a leg to stand on. If you can afford a PC, electricity, an internet connection, and enough time free to visit the forum, you can certainly put aside enough money to get S2. If someone is on the demo for a year (which a good chunk of demoers are), if they set aside 6p a day, they could have gotten S2 in that year. Seriously, don't say you can't afford that. I could find about 5x that amount of money on the floor of any shop, in the space of around 10 seconds.
/RAWR
The devs mightn't care if someone is freeloading off of their hard work, but I do. Just like the Government mightn't care if there's 220,000 people on the dole (actual Irish statistic, out of 4,000,000 population) or that 20% of them are actually foreigners (another actual statistic. And couple that with the fact that 15% of the Irish population are also foreigners. Another class of freeloaders, but anyway...), I do, because that's my hard earned money that pays taxes, and pays them for nothing. Same dealy here. My money has supported the devs (to be brutally honest), yet someone comes along and freeloads off of that.
And as said in the other thread, those that say they can't afford it really haven't a leg to stand on. If you can afford a PC, electricity, an internet connection, and enough time free to visit the forum, you can certainly put aside enough money to get S2. If someone is on the demo for a year (which a good chunk of demoers are), if they set aside 6p a day, they could have gotten S2 in that year. Seriously, don't say you can't afford that. I could find about 5x that amount of money on the floor of any shop, in the space of around 10 seconds.
/RAWR
This makes me wonder when ian is going to be back
Let's hope that it won't be very soon.
Keep the license status, and restrict demo users to be only able to read the threads (and download attachments etc... just remove the ability to post). Allow posting to beginners & technical assistance sub forums though, since that's what a demo user is supposed to need, any assistance to get into the LFS experience.
This would get rid of any improvement suggestions / demands being posted by freeloaders, and make the forum generally a better place.
This would get rid of any improvement suggestions / demands being posted by freeloaders, and make the forum generally a better place.
It would also get rid of all valuable contributions from demo users (movies, tools, sensible suggestions). Another effect is that the few subforums they can post in will be cluttered with off-topic threads and posts.
Forum should be available for everyone.
You paid for a product. Nothing more.
What has enabled LFS to develop is the success of that product (which has always included a free demo). One of the reasons for that success is the integrity the developers have brought to the production process, and the symbol of that integrity (and simultaneously, the by-product of that integrity) is the free demo.
No one is 'free loading'. It is a mark of the quality of LFS that there is no obligation to upgrade from the demo. This should be reflected on the forum.
Most people do get s2 after playing Demo, some get it after a month - others after couple years.
It's the same, both people paid same amount of cash, so at the end of day who gives a shit for how long they've been playing demo?
It's the same, both people paid same amount of cash, so at the end of day who gives a shit for how long they've been playing demo?
Re. original post.
Brown eye/blue eye experiment - experiment a judicially endorsed system of discrimination based on a genetic characteristic.
Stanford prison experiment - experiment regarding giving people sanctioned authority.
The current demo situation - dealing with people that in some cases use a demonstration version of a piece of software for long periods, a situation that can be rectified by purchasing a £24 licence. I'm struggling to see the paralells here.
Brown eye/blue eye experiment - experiment a judicially endorsed system of discrimination based on a genetic characteristic.
Stanford prison experiment - experiment regarding giving people sanctioned authority.
The current demo situation - dealing with people that in some cases use a demonstration version of a piece of software for long periods, a situation that can be rectified by purchasing a £24 licence. I'm struggling to see the paralells here.
Then struggle some more. Or read post #27.
What is absolutely clear is that a demo user will always be disadvantaged social connection to this community.
Human beings are social beings by nature and their habits are conditional upon the circumstances (place, time and persons with whom he lives).
Many demo user is what they think twice before opening a thread. Even if they think will answer in a thread and open for comment.
I am absolutely certain of that. Socially we are conditioned to treat and how we can help create habits that negative self-discrimination.
The problem is there as much as we do not want to see it. This community is restrictive in that regard.
I also agree that there are people who used to unlock the cracks of S2 illegally. But how to investigate This situation must be investigated in an efficient viewing the status of the person.
Who can see the status to the naked eye?
Only a Moderators.
This is a form of non-discrimination.
Sorry, google translate.
Human beings are social beings by nature and their habits are conditional upon the circumstances (place, time and persons with whom he lives).
Many demo user is what they think twice before opening a thread. Even if they think will answer in a thread and open for comment.
I am absolutely certain of that. Socially we are conditioned to treat and how we can help create habits that negative self-discrimination.
The problem is there as much as we do not want to see it. This community is restrictive in that regard.
I also agree that there are people who used to unlock the cracks of S2 illegally. But how to investigate This situation must be investigated in an efficient viewing the status of the person.
Who can see the status to the naked eye?
Only a Moderators.
This is a form of non-discrimination.
Sorry, google translate.
Why do you imply that everyone should upgrade from the demo? Why do you have a problem with something that the makers of LFS self-evidently do not?
I see a very direct parallel with behavioural experiments since you are projecting a moral dimension onto something on which you have no real authority whatsoever.
Your own words are a fine demonstration of the parallel with the blue/brown-eyed experiment.
- The devs created a difference in privileges, and a tag that clearly shows the difference. This causes a division in the community. "Us vs. them" thinking sets in.
- The privileged group invents a morally tinted, negative image of the other group ("freeloaders"). They are seen as a problem that must be "rectified". As nihil pointed out, the devs did not create that image: they chose to make a demo version without time constraints, no questions asked.
- Negative behaviour from members of the "lesser" group reinforces the negative image. It becomes a prejudice against the whole group.
- Protests from the "lesser" group are shrugged off. The privileged group feels they are morally justified. Their only answer is forced assimilation ("if you don't like the abuse then buy S2").
This also has a parallel with the experiment: "These 'inferior' classmates also transformed – into timid and subservient children, including those who had previously been dominant in the class."
If I understand you correctly, you want to make the tag only visible to moderators, so they can detect crackers. The problem is that Bob Smith said he relies on reports from normal users to catch the crackers, because it's too much work to scan all the posts. So normal users should be able to find the license status somewhere -- but not next to every post.
That sounds like a good compromise.
Valuable contributions?! Well, if there'd be sensible suggestions then I could live with that, although they've probably been mentioned before and can be found from the improvements log.
The subforums that the demo users would be allowed to post in would be moderated like they are now: any offtopic thread (or posts) would be removed.
A demo user needs the forum for getting advice on how to set up the PC to run LFS, how to set up the controller to drive the car, and tips on how to improve driving.. After those things are sorted, the choice is to cough up the money to buy a license or to get out.
That aside, I see red when I read a stupid post, it doesn't matter if it's made by a demo user or a licensed one.
How come you know this? Got a PM from Scawen? Had an in-game chat with Victor? Eric mail you? If not, why are you sitting in their chair?
It's a question of morality really.
Do you think it's right to take advantage of the very generous demo the devs have? Or to actually buy a license to support the dev's work, and unlock all the content?
Do you think it's right to take advantage of the very generous demo the devs have? Or to actually buy a license to support the dev's work, and unlock all the content?
With this post I think we have diverted all of which is the main topic of discrimination of demo users in this forums for their tag in the avatar.
I am in favour of how many more demo user buy the license is better for the live for speed project.
But not everyone has the same economic capacity.
I see your post, with all due respect, misplaced.
This isn't the only forum they go to. But no, I haven't discussed this issue with the devs.
Anyways, like everyone else, I'm expressing my opinion. A demonstration of LFS is exactly what it says, showcase of what the game will be like. If people are struggling with the demo they can come here and ask for help to get the most out of it (if their hardware actually is compatible & and good enough to run LFS, if they are indeed talented enough to drive the cars etc).. Making the decision to buy or not to buy a license should be quite simple after that. How long a time will one need to get to grips with the LFS demo to be able to make the decision? Days? Weeks? Months? YEARS?
What other value should the forum actually bring to a demo user? Why? Something to keep them interested in the demo even longer, so they definitely would not buy a license? From a business point of view, the demo users have money that belongs to the devs. The money doesn't change hands unless the user is made to feel like he shouldn't be using the demo for more than the evaluational purposes require.
At the moment, demo users are asking for more stuff, even though they haven't done the single action that actually helps the whole situation. Demo users are whining that the game isn't good, there should be this, there should be that. There are organized race events in demo, demo teams etc
The demo content is changed to offer something that wasn't there before; a vehicle running slick tyres. This in a demonstration sense makes the demo better. Users become angry because something has been taken away from them
Even though the drift machine hasn't gone anywhere from the game itself. It's there where the demo users were supposed to go ages ago.The hate (if you can call it that, I'd say I'm annoyed by the idea of prolonged demonstration periods people enjoy of) comes from the knowledge that if the demo users that enjoy LFS would buy licenses then the future of LFS could be better (by thinking that more money absolutely can't make LFS any worse).
Forget the blue and brown eyes, hiding the license status on this forum only hides the problem. It doesn't solve it.
"Demo racers have the right to play the demo as long as they like. We have afterall not applied a time limit on the demo. It was our decision to allow unlimited usage and even provide stats as of late. Some people seem to think we are too generous and that it is their duty to convince demo racers to buy a license. I obviously have no trouble with some promotion, but some people take it way over the line where it becomes demo-racer-harrassment".
http://www.lfsforum.net/announcement.php?f=21
It is obvious that your opinion does not coincide with the developers.
When you talk of complaints from demo users, please put the link as does our colleague wsinda.
My opinion is the same as that of Victor, in this case.
I think that the demo users have the same rights as everyone on Live for Speed. Obviously they have restrictions. That freedom is what leads them to take a dicisión whether or not to buy a license. That is a decision for them. The question that we must import to us.
I disagree with hiding the licence status - I don't think it has anything to do with whether it says "Demo" or "S1" or "S2".
It has a lot more to do with what lies an inch or two to the right - the quality of the post itself.
Some demoers take a lot of flak because of the crap that they post.
Some S2ers take a lot of flak because of the crap that they post.
Some demoers are rude, abusive, and promote illegal use of the game outside the EULA.
Some S2ers are rude, abusive, and promote illegal use of the game outside the EULA.
Waffling on about discrimination and inequality sounds like a liberal lefty excuse for pretending that we're all equal. We're not - some of us have bought the product, some haven't. That doesn't give any of us the right to not be civil to each other, but respect is a two way thing. Those that show respect and appreciation for what we have here (i.e. the LFS community) will naturally receive it. Those who don't, won't.
So whilst some licenced users may attack demoers, and some demoers may post utter shite, the problem is with those users, not the licence display system.
It has a lot more to do with what lies an inch or two to the right - the quality of the post itself.
Some demoers take a lot of flak because of the crap that they post.
Some S2ers take a lot of flak because of the crap that they post.
Some demoers are rude, abusive, and promote illegal use of the game outside the EULA.
Some S2ers are rude, abusive, and promote illegal use of the game outside the EULA.
Waffling on about discrimination and inequality sounds like a liberal lefty excuse for pretending that we're all equal. We're not - some of us have bought the product, some haven't. That doesn't give any of us the right to not be civil to each other, but respect is a two way thing. Those that show respect and appreciation for what we have here (i.e. the LFS community) will naturally receive it. Those who don't, won't.
So whilst some licenced users may attack demoers, and some demoers may post utter shite, the problem is with those users, not the licence display system.
I won't go into that here, because it's OT for this thread. You can look up other recent threads, or PM me for my views.
The point I want to make is that
1. There is a negative attitude towards demo users, whichin many cases isn't warranted by their individual behaviour.
2. There are psychological mechanisms, shown experimentally, that cause the negative behaviour, given a few conditions.
3. One of these conditions is a visible indicator of the group you belong to. On the LFS forum, this is the license tag.
4. You can stop the mechanism by hiding the tag. That will improve the atmosphere on the forum.
You seem to think the problem is demo'ers who never buy S2. It's not. The problem is the negative view of demo users.
You may think you only react to the quality of the posts. But research says your view is subtly distorted by the license tag.
wsinda - while I agree that the tag creates a mental division, I fail to see where S2 is really "better" or "above" demo, that creates the superiority issue. It just lets people know who's bought the game and who hasn't.
I mean, if there were to be an eye colour tag, is it obvious which is going to be superior? If anything, it would be like rFactor fanboy vs LFS fanboy, i.e. equal bitching. Regarding the blue-brown experiment you linked to, in that case one group had to be given the different treatment to start it off. I'm not convinced the addition of avatars and signatures really merits that (especially given various people turn them off, so that the only difference left is the "label").
Now obviously people feel that licence > demo, but I think it's that issue which causes the tag to have any relevence. If people didn't think demo users in general were lesser than licenced users, the tag wouldn't make the slightest difference, and the individuals would still be treated like equal people. So as I see it, the root of the problem is really the people, not the tag.
I mean, if there were to be an eye colour tag, is it obvious which is going to be superior? If anything, it would be like rFactor fanboy vs LFS fanboy, i.e. equal bitching. Regarding the blue-brown experiment you linked to, in that case one group had to be given the different treatment to start it off. I'm not convinced the addition of avatars and signatures really merits that (especially given various people turn them off, so that the only difference left is the "label").
Now obviously people feel that licence > demo, but I think it's that issue which causes the tag to have any relevence. If people didn't think demo users in general were lesser than licenced users, the tag wouldn't make the slightest difference, and the individuals would still be treated like equal people. So as I see it, the root of the problem is really the people, not the tag.
Forum suggestion: Omit "Demo/S1/S2" tag under user name
(73 posts, started )
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