Quote from Bob Smith :

wsinda - while I agree that the tag creates a mental division, I fail to see where S2 is really "better" or "above" demo, that creates the superiority issue. It just lets people know who's bought the game and who hasn't.

I mean, if there were to be an eye colour tag, is it obvious which is going to be superior? If anything, it would be like rFactor fanboy vs LFS fanboy, i.e. equal bitching. Regarding the blue-brown experiment you linked to, in that case one group had to be given the different treatment to start it off. I'm not convinced the addition of avatars and signatures really merits that (especially given various people turn them off, so that the only difference left is the "label").

Now obviously people feel that licence > demo, but I think it's that issue which causes the tag to have any relevence. If people didn't think demo users in general were lesser than licenced users, the tag wouldn't make the slightest difference, and the individuals would still be treated like equal people. So as I see it, the root of the problem is really the people, not the tag.

I don't think that the issue is limited purely to the fact that people have the word "Demo racer" under their name. I've recently been on the receiving end of abuse from forum users, for what I believe to be no other reason than my low post count.

It appears that because I haven't been a member of the community for a long time, and my post count reflects that, I'm an idiot with no basis for posting an opinion. I'm also not allowed to disagree with others that have a high post count, or I'll get proverbially nailed to the cross. It also appears to be fair to assume that because I have a low post count, I haven't read the thread fully, and aren't qualified to contribute to the thread.

I've bitten my tongue on a number of occasions, because of some outright blatantly rude and offensive things being aimed at some people, because they either have the word "Demo racer" under their name, or they have a low post count. I'll share another example of this, right here:

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=46996

The amount of abuse that the OP receives, is completely unreasonable.

It's also not fair to assume that because someone doesn't meet other people's seemingly high expectations of humanity, they should be subjected to the gang-banging that is becoming more prevalent on these forums. People need to stop forgetting that there are indeed pre-teen and non-english speaking humans using these forums, which is why their grammar, spelling an language doesn't meet their requirements.

It's not a phenomenon that's limited to these forums by any means - there's so many thousands of forums out there that suffer from the same childish elitism. Just do a google search for "forum post count", and see how many requests there are on various forums to have them turned off, for exactly the same reasons as people have stated here. Having a "Demo racer" tag, while different to read, results in the same attitude from others.

It's sad, that I make a post like this, just one month after buying myself into an S2 license. I love playing LFS online with good racing and gentlemanly conduct, but it seems that these forums, increasingly, don't reflect this ideal that I've found in the driving seat.

Quote from dawguk :

I don't think that the issue is limited purely to the fact that people have the word "Demo racer" under their name. I've recently been on the receiving end of abuse from forum users, for what I believe to be no other reason than my low post count.

It appears that because I haven't been a member of the community for a long time, and my post count reflects that, I'm an idiot with no basis for posting an opinion. I'm also not allowed to disagree with others that have a high post count, or I'll get proverbially nailed to the cross. It also appears to be fair to assume that because I have a low post count, I haven't read the thread fully, and aren't qualified to contribute to the thread.

I've bitten my tongue on a number of occasions, because of some outright blatantly rude and offensive things being aimed at some people, because they either have the word "Demo racer" under their name, or they have a low post count. I'll share another example of this, right here:

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=46996

The amount of abuse that the OP receives, is completely unreasonable.

It's also not fair to assume that because someone doesn't meet other people's seemingly high expectations of humanity, they should be subjected to the gang-banging that is becoming more prevalent on these forums. People need to stop forgetting that there are indeed pre-teen and non-english speaking humans using these forums, which is why their grammar, spelling an language doesn't meet their requirements.

It's not a phenomenon that's limited to these forums by any means - there's so many thousands of forums out there that suffer from the same childish elitism. Just do a google search for "forum post count", and see how many requests there are on various forums to have them turned off, for exactly the same reasons as people have stated here. Having a "Demo racer" tag, while different to read, results in the same attitude from others.

It's sad, that I make a post like this, just one month after buying myself into an S2 license. I love playing LFS online with good racing and gentlemanly conduct, but it seems that these forums, increasingly, don't reflect this ideal that I've found in the driving seat.

I'm glad to read a post like yours.

It is undeniable that the problem is there. Only need to give a brief walk through forums and realize this:

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=46996

The number of entries ago that there is "Right-old" which makes also has some disadvantage in those few individuals carrying messages in the forums. But that, for the moment is not a real problem. From my point of view.

The label will always be a trigger for a demo user always see him with magnifying glass. Done by which, many lose the desire to continue in these forums (obviously lost interest in the Live for Speed and posibly buy a license).

Quote from Bob Smith :

while I agree that the tag creates a mental division, I fail to see where S2 is really "better" or "above" demo, that creates the superiority issue. It just lets people know who's bought the game and who hasn't.

Bob, I don't think I can explain it any better than I did, but I'll try. (Probably be repeat'n myself, tho.)

Prejudice can occur when (1) groups are easily discernible, (2) there is a difference in status. Under those conditions, bad examples from members of the lesser group easily gets generalised into prejudice. The status difference weakens inhibitions on aggressive behaviour.

Condition (2) is covered by LFS being a commercial product. The forum covers condition (1) with the license tag.

Some people here don't see prejudice as a problem that needs attention. But many others do. If you want to solve it, then you can't change (2) so you'll have to tackle (1). Or you must set your hopes on people becoming more mature...

Or just accept that prejudice is part of life, always has been and always will be. Get rid of, say, the status, and people will find something else to replace it - nationality, ability to type, age, spelling, join date, avatar etc.

Quote from dougie-lampkin :

It's a question of morality really.

Do you think it's right to take advantage of the very generous demo the devs have? Or to actually buy a license to support the dev's work, and unlock all the content?

Its not a question of right and wrong. It is not a question of morality. Its a simple matter of choice.

You are inventing guilt where none exists.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Or just accept that prejudice is part of life, always has been and always will be. Get rid of, say, the status, and people will find something else to replace it - nationality, ability to type, age, spelling, join date, avatar etc.

Agreed, we'll remove all sigs, avatars, titles, join dates, post counts and even user names. We can all be a randomly generated number next to a message and that's it.

Quote from nihil :

You are inventing guilt where none exists.

Welcome to the world of corporate liability.

Quote from Bob Smith :

Agreed, we'll remove all sigs, avatars, titles, join dates, post counts and even user names. We can all be a randomly generated number next to a message and that's it.


Welcome to the world of corporate liability.

The randomly generated number is too much. someone might be able to identify its lerts and flame him

Quote from Bob Smith :

Agreed, we'll remove all sigs, avatars, titles, join dates, post counts and even user names. We can all be a randomly generated number next to a message and that's it.


Welcome to the world of corporate liability.

Neither both nor so little.

Just talking about not showing naked eye label demo user/s1 license and S2 license.

Life is not black or white.

Well, I think his discussion grew quite out of proportion.

Skimming through the forums, I made a very shocking discovery:
The "demo-user bashing" mainly takes place in threads where one demo-user said something stupid or demanded more free content. In fact, this "strong resentment agains demo users" (if there is one actually) started with patch Y which took away the XRT, which lead to a period where most posts made by demo users basically said the same: "OMG giv bakk me XRT, saw I can dorifto agin!"
And honestly, if you read the very same thread in varying qualities of grammar for weeks on end (even if you just read the thread titles without clicking on them) makes you somewhat annoyed and thus overly rude in your answers.

But now back for my point: take a look at the tech support and beginners forums: if a thread actually serves a purpose and someone is just trying to get help with a game related issue, NOONE bashes him (or her) for being a demo user. In fact, if the post is made in a readable and understandable manner, at least I am not even looking a the license status.

But if the post itself is dumb and/or badly written, for example in "1337" or short message style, I personally can't take the poster seriously. But guess what, that's independent from the license status too. If you're S2 and stupid, I'll have a go at you just as well as if you were a demo user. Or drifter. Or cruiser.
It's just by coincidence that most of those badly written and pointless posts come from those three demographics, and thus just by coincidence, most flak gets shot in those directions. But even though I personally don't really like cruising and drifting (still I enjoyed Initial D) noone gets flamed by me for doing one of both things as long as they are able to post understandably, use basic knowledge things like searching before posting, and don't act like retards. Of course, there are enough retards in the so called "racing faction", but for some odd reason, they mostly stay away from these forums, while the demo/drift/cruisers seem to flock here like moths to the light.

Allthough I might add that I have become more grumpy and sarcastic in my old days.

Quote from Lynce :

Neither both nor so little.

Just talking about not showing naked eye label demo user/s1 license and S2 license.

Life is not black or white.

But LFS is. You either own one of two licence types or not at all. That's pretty black and white to me. Certainly not many shades of grey at all.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Or just accept that prejudice is part of life, always has been and always will be. Get rid of, say, the status, and people will find something else to replace it - nationality, ability to type, age, spelling, join date, avatar etc.

A wonderful line of reasoning. Universal, too. Equally valid for, say, murder. I mean, people will always find a way to kill others, whatever laws and punishments you create. So let's not worry about it, shall we?

Tristan, if you don't like my suggestion then that's fine. But if you want to rationalise it you'll have to think of something better.

I don't see many murders going on in this forum, so we can probably ignore them in this topic about licence status.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I don't see many murders going on in this forum

Nope, no murderers here. :nol2:


... :hidesbehi

Invade or not invade. This is a question.

Hahahahahaha.

wsinda not attempt to rebut comments that have no logical or ethical content.

Ignore it, as I do, and rebut those who seek to defend their position with logic and arguments.

I think removing the ability to see licensed status will end up making it too easy for crackers to get away with posting up shots of stuff they shouldn't have access to. Right now we can sort of police it ourselves, which makes the mods lives a lot easier. Remove that and we can't do anything so the mods job gets harder.

I've not seen that much hostility to demo users recently, which is a good thing. I remember when I first started coming here there was hardly a demo post went by without some kind of abuse getting thrown, but it really has calmed down over the last year or so.

I don't think this update would achieve enough to justify the extra work that it would need.

Quote from Dajmin :

I think removing the ability to see licensed status will end up making it too easy for crackers to get away with posting up shots of stuff they shouldn't have access to. ... Remove that and we can't do anything so the mods job gets harder.

I don't get this. Seriously. Can someone explain this to me? What exactly is the problem and what do the mods have to do against it?

Quote from Bandit77 :

I don't get this. Seriously. Can someone explain this to me? What exactly is the problem and what do the mods have to do against it?

As it stands at the moment, any Demo or S1 licensed user posting up screenies of them driving S2 cars or on S2 tracks will easily be caught out because it says their license status under their name in the postbit.

If it were changed so that the license status was not shown, it would not be as quick and easy to check, and most likely would not be checked. The only giveaway would be that they have no avatar, but not all S2 licensed users have avatars anyway.

Thanks, Bean.

Quote from Bean0 :

will easily be caught out

And then they are sentenced to jail or fined?

They're just banned from the forum (only), right? So they can get another hotmail-account and register again. Basically this particular benefit of keeping the tags is somewhat phoney, right? Or am I missing anything?


I also truely believe that having a "demo racer" tag or a low post count or a late join date or a low mileage etc. makes you an easy victim. Sometimes these attributes are connected to the quality of your posts or the question of how seriously it/you has to be taken... but a lot of times there's no relation. Someone with a "fresh mind" sometimes sees things clearer after 30 laps with the demo than an old stager who's been here for ages and has driven a zillion laps and has already got a bit dull .
I don't say that's the rule, but it happens. I think this fact is a bit suppressed.
You can't tell how valuable a post is just by having a look at the license status or the post count.
A safe way not to fall too much into the prejudice-trap could be:

1 - Ignore the info about the poster.
2 - Read.
3 - Understand.
4 - Reply, i.e. tell where you agree or disagree.

Believe me when I say that item No 3 is heavily underestimated and leads to a lot of nasty arguments.

So, before I lose my train of thoughts completely, I say YES, get therefore rid of all this member-info that actually has no real content anyway.

If you're so proud of the number of posts you've written, add it to your signature, together with a scan of the receipt when you bought S2.

Yes, offenders get a forum ban. I don't know if they also get a master server ban, but I suppose it could be possible. vB has a rather nifty way of checking for duplicate accounts...that's all I'm saying on the matter.

Post Count/Join date should not be looked on in a negative way...everyone was a newbie once, but can be used by newcomers to get an idea of whose opinions should maybe be trusted above others. A lot of the time the more experienced members of a community know a hell of a lot about the various subjects that crop up commonly, or can point newbies to a similar thread.

i know this doesent really fit here, but i hate seeing demo servers on server list. there should be an option to turn them off just like, for example cruise servers.

Quote from Alles :

i know this doesent really fit here, but i hate seeing demo servers on server list. there should be an option to turn them off just like, for example cruise servers.

You can on LFSW now

The server browser has been improved recently, you can also sort by usage etc.

Quote from tristancliffe :

At least I prefer the same species as me

yeah but to quote Lt. malcolm reed from star trek enterprise

"sub commander t'pol has a nice bum"

Quote from Bean0 :

You can on LFSW now

The server browser has been improved recently, you can also sort by usage etc.

oh i think you misunderstood me i meant in the game