After watching Initial D, a lot of people want to drift. This includes me. But I wonder which is faster - drift or grip driving? Does it depend on the car/course? If so, under what condition is drifting preferrable?
Drifting is slower than 'gripping' because the former cannot be done without exceeding the limit of grip, thus getting less than optimal traction. Gripping is driving at the limit of traction, without going past it, thus it will be faster.The only time sliding the rear of the car is faster is in slow corners with such a crap car it physically refuses to turn in otherwise.
The physics are slightly more complex in reality (optimal slip angle, enormous turbo lag(?)), but the starting point is that show drifting is always slower.
This guy's right. Sliding is slower than gripping. Skidding is slower than speeding. Slipping is slower than dashing. Gliding is slower than...erm...driving fast.
I'm not sure about drifting and racing, though. Sorry for the spam-like behaviour, I just hate it when someone says grip driving! To make up for it:
If you wanted to put it really simply, you could say drifting was slower because there's more corners! In a corner, though, keeping traction is usually the fastest way.
One thing that noone seems to be able to tell me is: Where, or when, drifting becomes "gripping" or "gripping" becomes drifting?
Is it a certain slip angle that differentiates between the two? What is that angle? Because you can't turn a car without slipping. If you have set up toe to have a value different from 0, you can't even drive straight without slipping.
I get the fastest times in BL1 with the XRG by letting it slide through corners. But only a little. If I have to counter steer I loose time. But if I drive like that on a server with the drift point InSim I get no points.
About Initial D.
In the anime, if you watch the whole series, you'll notice a shift in focus from drifting to being fast. This is best noticed in the last races of Stage 4 when our heroes go against Kozo Hoshino and Toshiya Joushima.
There are a few cars and corners where drifting on the entry can be quicker than taking a 'normal' entry. The uphill chicane at SO6R in XRG, for example, is quicker drifting in than taking normal entry. However, in the vast majority of cases drifting will be slower.
However, driving without drifting is faster than drifting in RL. To get the best out of the XRG and XRT, you need to drift a bit. Sounds wierd but it's true.
<off topic crap>
Luckily, for the point of the argument, with this whole "drift vs racer" crap, I have happened to have started drifting, purely for fun. I had the ability to control and initiate a drift should I choose, but I put all my effort into racing. So over the last few days I've been spending some of my time on the Shikane Drift Server, normally running on FE Gold or Ky Nat GP Long.
What have I noticed? Well, firstly, it has improved my control of the XRT to no end. When I've mastered that, I'll move onto the FZ5. It's also taught me how to control a car on very hot tyres, and so, in many ways, would help alot in a longer race in the XRT.
The people? Well, there's the odd moron who's like "you sux @t drift fag" to other players, or those who want to just cause trouble, but overall, in comparison to the place where I normally race (CTRA Race 1), the people who are drifting are much nicer. There's probbably 5 or 6 nice people to 1 moron. On CTRA it's more like 5 or 6 morons to 1 nice person.
So why argue? People drift for fun (as I have recently started doing), and people race to win (as I also do). Has drifting improved my car control for the XFG, a FWD car? Yes, it's helped a bit.
yep. Gotta learn to be out of controll before you can really improve on being in controll.
Racing "Gripping" will almost always be faster than sliding/drifting less it's a tight turn that is harder to get around driving it rather than sliding it as everyone else has said.
I'll second that!
I had the advantage of watching/reading Initial-D after making it into LFS for a rather substantial amount of time (S2-racing since 2006). And I also kind of remember this phrase that came up in the anime/manga.
I have to say that this english translation sounds a a little "weird" to me - but then again, I'm no native speaker, neither of English nor Japanese. Just talking about the terminology here.
My conclusion is that I use "drifts" as a tool in racing. I don't see it as a 'driving-style' as long as it's not meant to be for show. To me it's a rather plain description of either the back axxis (2-wheel-) or both (4-wheel - drift) losing their lateral traction.
E.g. on some tracks you will prefer an understeery setup for your car to gain faster laptimes when your surroundings are clear. But facing close competition on some corners will make you unable to react to unforeseeable shortage of line-choices as smoothly as if going with a better-handling setup.
You can see it on CTRA-1 all the time: ppl that are unable to control their vehicle when some "obstacle" (e.g. _me_) blocks their racing line.
Most of them just crash into it not knowing what to do or how to cope with a sudden and never-before-experienced range of vehicle dynamics. Specially when different types of cars are involved like XRG vs XFG. It's because they all start as "grip"-drivers so-to-speak (again: don't really like that term) and practise their lap times, go right to the edge of what's physically possible but never bother to go beyond - cause that'd inevitably slow them down.
So yeah: sometimes a drift-technique comes in quite handy. Mostly in races you start drifting without really knowing it. That's probably the kind of thing that happens first to novice-drivers. After managing such, one will eventually start to anticipate losage of traction on specific corners. Later - much later - one will begin to understand ones own vehicle's dynamics and that's when the path is clear to gain the ability to "read" the opponents' cars' movements, as well.
That said I would like to add that practicing car control - even drifting for that matter - is huge fun!.
So yes, knowing how to drift really means knowing how to race better. But keep an eye on the traffic & your tires, will you?
Well, drifting to racing is just like showjumping to the Grand National. One is just a show where you get points for jumping over hurdles the other is the fastest to the finish line. Although if you need to go sideways to get to the finish line first then so be it. Sometimes powersliding does help you gain a second at the expense of your tyres, but drifting and powersliding are different. Drifting is sliding the car for show, trying to look good and trying to maintain a long slide. Powersliding is sliding the car through a corner to get around it quicker. I end up powersliding quite often because my technique is more suited for dirt so I ruin my tyres quite quick on asphalt.
Quoting Tokyo Drift is not helping... Drifting is NOT "out of controll" it's a controlled movement of a car sideways. Being "out of controll" is crashing
Utter tosh. Most of the best drivers on the planet will avoid anything more than about 10° of yaw at all time, and only accept between 5 and 10° in exceptional circumstances.
Learning to be out of control before you can be in control is just a idiots way of saying "I'm shit at driving, but I might get better".
concerning the less-experienced drivers who are keen to know more...
wasn't aware of that, at all - I didn't even bother to watch that 3rd incarnation of utter nonsense :schwitzeven though back in the day I liked the original TFATF because of that gorgeous mid-90's green Supra / then hated it for it gave EA inspiration for games like underground thus obliterating the great NFS-legacy ---- Initial-D is way more entertaining, anyway )
Not to offend your believes, which I assume are technically 100% correct; Are you sure this fully applies to lfs, as well? Think about the number of cars with road-tires combined with rough-surface tracks
To my understanding of the matter, people tend to "try harder" in lfs than most of them would go in real life racing, i.e.: They push their driving to extreme even in a racing situation in narrow and unforgiving s-bends like the chicane in South City. Only some footage I have seen on youtube with a Lotus-pilot on a rather well-known street-track comes remotely close to what I see & experience on lfs public servers every day.
Well granted, no professional would allow him/herself to go "out of control" no matter what. They would rather end their race than to risk a good portion of their essential moving parts on their car and/or body.
However, given the situation we - as Sim-drivers - are in, we don't pay for hospital or broken cars&tracks when we drive lfs. The track shines in perfect condition every time start over and the number of race-ready car replacements doesn't cost us a single dime.
So YES, THAT PART OF THE SIM IS GAME-LIKE -- whether we like it or not. So that's why inevitably, fresh and unexperienced drivers will tend to run wild on the virtual track when being introduced to the advanced physics of lfs.
The only way to come around this problem is to try and behave like a real racer. And that's why I'd like to encourage the newer racers to find out themselves what car control is all about.
I already explained above to some degree, that I see drifting as one of many driving techniques rather than a style. If you don't know how to master a slide - or in other terms: a moment of instability with skidding involved - you will very likely fail in keeping the control of your vehicle, thus rendering clean racing impossible.
I might add one more vital Ingredient to the recipe of how-to become a cleaner racer through drift-practice:
4 times of simple straight-forward newbie-advise::
1.
If you want to experience drifting you are encouraged to do so, e.g. offline or on a designated drift-server. BUT as long as you really want to race seriously in lfs DO NOT USE SPECIALLY DESIGNED DRIFT-SETUPS to start with. Most of them are unsuited for any form of real racing! If you start off with this kind of thing you will just satisfy rapid progress by becoming a "false-learner".
2.
If you want to learn about the boundaries of your car's dynamics then go with a moderately neutral all-round setup / i.e. one with agile handling designed to run long-distance on twisty, bumpy and narrow road tracks (like Fern Bay green) combined with normal street-like gear-ratios. The provided "Race-S"-sets provided in the original package generally come very close to that.
3.
You can always push the length of your drifts by changing to Offroad-tires all around and filling them up with air (hint: especially demo-users will find the XRG will get immensely more skid-capable with that). Fresh starters might also try this and frequently change from road-tires to dirt-track-tires (using the same setup) - again meant as to not learn the wrong "feel".
4.
After playing around on your own, searching on youtube for something like "drift bible" might be a good idea. It's just that for total driving-novices all the hints and talk in those vids are likely to sound pretty much alike the last one if you do not exactly know what the "wise guys" are referring to in detail.
Powersliding, atleast all the definitions I've heard before this one, is accelerating hard out of a corner and letting the rear slide. That is one form of drifting. Drift Bible calls it power over.
Drifting is not just show drifting. You have to remember that.
Not from what I learnt from rally driving, I was told to powerslide through corners to get through them quicker. Obviously that is on dirt not asphalt but surely the definition would not entirely change.
even though back in the day I liked the original TFATF because of that gorgeous mid-90's green Supra / then hated it for it gave EA inspiration for games like underground thus obliterating the great NFS-legacy ---- Initial-D is way more entertaining, anyway