Now before I start, I must say that at heart i am a racer, I started as a racer, I started because I am a racer, and I enjoy both drifting and racing online.

Some of my friends on this game are racers, some are drifters.

And yes, it is another Drifters and Racers topic.

I was in the [400] server the other day with the likes of Gooden (thanks for letting me know, btw) and others (I have a bad memory). So it was the end of the race, and i asked if it was OK to drift for a little bit (there really wasn't much of anything going on, I am courteous, if there's a 500HP GTR barreling down on me I will pull over). One member said "Sure, as long as i don't see you". Though i understand this was half in jest as it was a racing server after all, it got me thinking of all the hostility towards drifters. I understand all the wrecking and ruined races because if irresponsible drifters, but there are those of our breed that don't. Is the general hostility towards drifters mainly because of the few members that are too stupid to provide common courtesy? or is it the idea of drift itself?

To me it is down to how a drifter behaves and his attitude to the fact that he is using up the whole track while not going as fast as he can be so if some people are pushing as fast as they can he should let through rather than blocked.

I have very good races with some people I know well and respect highly some of which are awsome drifters also and I respect them for that, one guy I race often has shown me replays of him doing some of the best drifting I've ever seen I don't have any problem whatsoever with drifting, as long as there is respect I don't go to a drift server and try too race, so I expect the same in return... having said that if I was on the server when you asked if it's ok to drift a few laps, and there was nothing happening at the time, I'd have no problem with it... so yes it's a common courtesy issue.

I can't offer a definitive answer. This is how I perceive it:

With a track and a car, there are two main ways to spend your time. One is to race, and the other way is to drift. In real life, this works great. The drifters get together for a drift, and the racers get together for a race.

Online, they come together. Two "opposing" motoring philosophies, fighting for the same 1/23 of the circuit.

PACE vs GRACE.

This gives rise to the opportunity for a conflict, but it's a conflict that never seems to quite kick off, from what I've seen. Drifters seem to believe that racers look down on them. Racers seem somewhat baffled by drifters, and why they would think this. It's the old north-south divide story all over again (a UK analogy) where the truth is much less aggressive than the PERCEIVED truth. He said she said, etc.

Racing and drifting are different skills. Not everyone is a master of both. Few, from what I've seen. I love to race, but I am not blind to the grace that is inherent in drifting. I don't disapprove of drifting. How can one disapprove of an artform so graceful as this?

The ART of drifting is simply different from the SCIENCE of racing. A driver who can combine both disciplines, in my opinion, is a MASTER of driving. An LFS "DaVinci".

Quote from SamH :

The ART of drifting is simply different from the SCIENCE of racing. A driver who can combine both disciplines, in my opinion, is a MASTER of driving. An LFS "DaVinci".

I very much agree and am previleged to race with one such individual, at least that I know of this guy I know is simply mind boggling in his drfting abliity (e.g. 360 and even 720 deg spins before entering a corner fully drifting and in 100% control for 2 laps without error) and then at the same time he has held a few WR's in grip racing so a true DaVinci and on top of that he is a true gentalmen, so he gets my greatest respect

There has been some great replies on this topic, so I must simply add my two cents.

In LFS I would call myself more of a drifter than a racer, but in absolutely no circumstance would I go to a racing server and start drifting, its just rude in my opinion. However, circumstances will change if there are say, only a few on the server, and they agree to let you drift. But mainly, I would only drift on drift servers, and I would race on race servers.

I'd like to add my comments, as I am a known disliker of drifting

I can't drift, and i don't want to. The only time I 'drift' is when I make a mistake and have to catch the slide. I've had a few people say to me when I've opposite locked around a corner "hey, nice drift". This is where a confusion occurs.

I think a lot of people think drifting is just sliding round a corner on opposite lock. The believe it's quicker than driving, and they think it's better. They are rude and ignorant of anything other than opposite locking. They are the reason I dislike 'drifting'. I know it's wrong to dislike a whole bunch of people due to the bad eggs as it were, but I do, and I can' change that.

On the opposite end of the scale there are drifters who know how to drift. they do it not to be quicker (they realise the process is slower in most circumstances), but to do good drifts. Wide angles, perfect lines, good control into, during and out of the drift. they are usually nice people, and often very good at driving properly. I have no problems with people like this AT ALL. I know a few fairly well, and we can discuss the pros and cons of drifting without argument or hatred.

So, in summary, I think it's those that can't drift (the same people that complained about the limited lock of S2 cars, or about tyre wear) that give drifting a bad name. They also don't know when is a good time to drift and when it's not acceptable. Catching a slide is NOT drifting. The people that can drift are okay. They make the cars dance on the edge of control, and they know when and where drifting is appropriate. Whilst I'll never like drifting as a driving technique, I do see the skill in the art form, and i respect that. but not when it's just kicked the back out and desperate trying to avoid a spin, and taking terrible lines through the corners.

Does that make sense? Is it a reasonable fair assessment? And what a long summary compared to the main body

Quote from SamH :

PACE vs GRACE.

I do not like what you said so i'd like to argue a little about that. Hope you don't mind

You put a "vs" there, as if something done fast isn't graceful (and something done gracefuly is not fast)

I consider it graceful, when a driver can make the delicate manipulation of controls, to drive a fast lap and when he can REPEAT said lap.

I find immeasurable grace in taking a turn the fastest way possible. The delicate balance between grip and slide, the inside wheels lifting and avoiding the car flipping over all the while maintaining most of the speed... These are only some things i can mention: it is not possible for me to explain to you, logicaly, why i find grace in that. But i do. And i am pretty certain many racers feel the same way. In fact, i am almost as certain that you feel the same way too.

Your line, i feel, should be

PACE: obligatory vs. PACE: optional

And of course, it is not obligatory to go fast. Don't care to spew my thoughts on this matter, though... i just woke up.

(and of course, there is grace in taking the same turn... about as fast... and looking through the side windows )

I will now go see if i can find someone to race about. Not with the raceabout. i fscking HATE that car.

p.s.: please don't hate me SamH, i hope you can see that i am not flaming you or trolling or anything... I've been in like 10 forums and so far there hasn't been one where if i disagree with someone, the other guy won't go ballistic if i dissagreed with him

p.s.2: tristan: even a 1m lateral slide with opposite lock is considered a "drift". When someone says "hey, nice drift", what they meant is "hey, you caught the slide nicely!". They don't necessarily mean "dude omg niec powerslideeing!". Also, why do people make funny comments about "bashing tristan" ?

Quote from tristancliffe :

I'd like to add my comments, as I am a known disliker of drifting

I think you did really well all things considered honest

There's just as many disrespectful grippers as there is disrespectful drifters in reality It's just the later probably sticks in the grippers mind more and vice versa

Very good post TRISTANCLIFFE. I agree with you to a certain extent, about the minority of people who say they can "drift" because they slide around a few corners before hopelessly losing control of the car, then blame it on the tyre wear, which they "didn't get in Need For Speed: Underground", but the fact is, tyre wear happens! You have to live with it! Now I am by no means a skilled drifter (in LFS, I absolutely suck in real life), but I do think I at least know the basics of it, and appreciate those who are good.

Also, I believe if someone drifts a track properly, there is NO WAY they can get it round a track faster than someone in the same type of car racing it.

Quote from george_tsiros :

p.s.2: tristan: even a 1m lateral slide with opposite lock is considered a "drift". When someone says "hey, nice drift", what they meant is "hey, you caught the slide nicely!". They don't necessarily mean "dude omg niec powerslideeing!". Also, why do people make funny comments about "bashing tristan" ?

No grippers often mock or jib each other about hey thats a nice drift as a tongue in cheek you bad boy you

And as too why many often bash tristan well it's mostly because he is a good sport and they know he will take it in humour

Quote from george_tsiros :

I do not like what you said so i'd like to argue a little about that. Hope you don't mind

You put a "vs" there, as if something done fast isn't graceful (and something done gracefuly is not fast)

I didn't mean that the two are mutually exclusive, just that the primary objective in each is different. In drifting, the objective is to hold a car at its limit, achieving a balance of control over physics which is (I think) manifestly beautiful. It is, in short, to create "art". In racing, the objective is to reach the finish line of a race first, by out-pacing and out-manouevring all others in the field. Pace vs grace.

Quote from george_tsiros :

p.s.: please don't hate me SamH

May an onion fall on your head at a most inconvenient moment.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I know it's wrong to dislike a whole bunch of people due to the bad eggs as it were, but I do, and I can' change that.

Yes, I agree it's wrong. Perhaps it is inevitable though. In all forms of art, there is GOOD art and BAD art. I suspect that, since you're pre-disposed to dislike drifting, you consequently don't attend drifting servers, and what you're subsequently most exposed to is poor grafitti on the underpasses of racing servers.

Quote from SamH :

Yes, I agree it's wrong. Perhaps it is inevitable though. In all forms of art, there is GOOD art and BAD art. I suspect that, since you're pre-disposed to dislike drifting, you consequently don't attend drifting servers, and what you're subsequently most exposed to is poor grafitti on the underpasses of racing servers.

Almost certainly. Maybe one evening I should spend a couple of hours in a proper drift server with the good guys and see what it's really like. So if there's a drifting competition coming up with some proper drifters in it, let me know (and if there's space on the server - I have no desire to watch a drifting competition in LFS Spectator )

Edit: Just to clarify - not driving in aforementioned server, just watching. I'm not about to embarrass myself that much

tristan, do you hate ME then? <== al :'(

tristan, i do know of a comp that's going on, go to lfs-torque.net and look under ADA Drift Competition to find out. with someone as highly respected as you, i think apex and vendetta will have no problem with you sitting in and watching

Quote from SamH :

PACE vs GRACE.

This gives rise to the opportunity for a conflict, but it's a conflict that never seems to quite kick off, from what I've seen. Drifters seem to believe that racers look down on them. Racers seem somewhat baffled by drifters, and why they would think this. It's the old north-south divide story all over again (a UK analogy) where the truth is much less aggressive than the PERCEIVED truth. He said she said, etc.

Racing and drifting are different skills. Not everyone is a master of both. Few, from what I've seen. I love to race, but I am not blind to the grace that is inherent in drifting. I don't disapprove of drifting. How can one disapprove of an artform so graceful as this.

I've heard it is just envy because they can't do each other's prefered choice of style that good

Horses for courses . . .

Drivers for bends . . . .

Chickens for eggs . . . .

Those who can can, those who can't drift . . . Only joking. I have never been on a drift server. But I would never go on one with the sole intention of gripping the whole way around the track. Same way I wouldn't expect a drifter to come on a gripper and drift the whole way around.

Doesn't float my boat but you get no animosity from me, indifference maybe, but not hate.

If im going to race, i go to a grip server, if im going to drift (never) i'd go to a drift server, that easy.... best way to avoid any trouble\headaches\annoyances....

If the race was over, you could quit and go to another server to drift, or do it single player...

What's the point of discussing drifters - racers conflict"? I race, enjoy it a lot(probably more than drifting) and not a single racer has said a bad thing to me, even tho "I am a drifter". I think that drifters may be disliked on forums. But when it comes to playing lfs, if one is doing the right thing, he will not be hated for his "official drifter/racer" personallity.

So... Guys*.. Wouldn't it be easier to just call people drivers? As I am LFS driver who enjos racing and drifting. Guy XXX is a driver who enjoys.. Wrecking etc.

* - and girls.

Driving is driving, i don't really care if you race or drift, any good driver has my full respect, but there's more to being a good driver than simply being very fast illepall or incredibly sideways , and as long as you have that, I you have my respect.

its the ski ing (too many is ?) vs snowboarding scenario really

all sensible people realise there is great skill in being at the top of either sport and its the same with race and drift.

a racer who is consistantly fast has to be able to run at the limits of his / her car corner after corner, lap after lap.

a drifter has to be able to keep their car sliding corner after corner, lap after lap without ever overstepping the limit.

different style, same basic skills, find me a top racer who cant hold a slide at the limit

find me a top drifter who cant tell where the limits of grip are

find me someone who races on the rallycross tracks who doesnt slide and doesnt enjoy sliding. alain prost was famous for being tidy and neat yet admitted he loved going sideways and is v good in andreas ice racing which is almost like continual drifting, schumacher has gone on record as saying one of the people he admires the most, because of his car control when sliding road cars, is tiff needell. yvan muller wins most of the time in ice racing and is highly competative in saloon racing.

the problem, like skiing and snowboarding, is when the two styles try to occupy the same piece of tarmac / snow and also the "anti establishment" image that snowboarders, skateboarders, drifters, basejumpers etc all cultivate in real life. yet ask any of the top performers in these and they will, whilst saying its not for them, admit that the top performers in traditional sports are skillful.

when i was young there was a similar, goodnatured, rivalry between circuit racers, rally drivers and drag racers. circuit drivers saying there was jo skill in holding a throttle down in a straight line, rally drivers saying where's the challenge when you know which way the next corner goes and drag racers saying that race / rally engine arent proper engines with real power yet when given the chance by magazines such as CCC to try the other styles they jump at it. indeed one of the most memorable items of all time in CCC was when ayrton senna was taken to a welsh forest to try 6 different rally cars. on another occasion, tony pond was put in an arrows f1 car and within 5 laps was within 2 seconds of its regular driver at donington, the f1 driver (sorry cant remember name) was within 2 secs of ponds time in his rally car on a dirt stage of similar length

sorry its all rambled but in summary

both race and drift, when done well, are skillful and valid, just dont mix them without agreement of all parties

Quote from tinvek :

***
all things he said
***

Exactly, good post

well said and good post tinvek.

Faster buy S2, and join us (drift or race).

Quote from StanleyCarter :

well said and good post tinvek.

Faster buy S2, and join us (drift or race).

think ill have to

son aged 6 been trying lfs out, likes crashing (offline) but he really likes minis so i guess s2 is a neccesity

not that theres a mini on it and any ressemblence is purely coincidental

Hehe

Very good post, indeed

Yes, and i often use the same analogy, being a skiier myself, i remember the animosity towards snowboarders 10-15years ago when
they scraped the sloped down to ice. Today, snowboarding has grown into a respected sport and is even part of the olympics.

As for drifting, i admit to enjoying it a lot myself. I find it funny how Tristan mentions not drifting when 'power drifting'...because
this is presicely how my passion for drifting started, in a miata on top of that .This is what pushed me to buy a 240sx which i've
enjoyed very much apart from its major lack of power.

I live in montreal canada and we have 'real' winters here and there's not much i like more than driving a rwd in snow (apart from
driving an awd in snow of course). Just last xmas i went to a friends house who lives deep into the woods. The road there is a
sinous country road with high snow banks. Well, i couldn't stop power drifting on my way there. In fact, i spent a good 10-15 mins
going around his home where there's an awesome jelly bean shaped road. All my friends had a huge grin when i finally came in.
"So had fun there buddy ?" I sure F-ing did !

Now, i'm not saying it's ok to start drifting all over public roads, but being able to maintain a constant slip angle in winter on a
miata is not only a challenge, it's a necessity, that little thing just won't go straight and if you cant hold a slide, you'll end up
in the ditch. My 240sx was much smoother and the few times i pushed it too much, i was surprised at how easy it was to
maintain a precise slide and get out of trouble. My granma could drift that thing, but then again, all of our grand parents had
rwd with open diffs and big V8s back in the days...at least here in america.

Ok, so all this novel isn't really an answer, but i just wanted to share my feelings towards all this in hopes of showing that
drifting isn't always a kid in a 240sx with 20K worth of parts making a fool of himself. You must seperate the 'sport' from the
people. A bit like snowboarding, you shouldn't take one bad apple as an example for all of them. As in everything, there's
always a bad apple, even in traditional grip racing.