I read in a thread somewhere that on ovals trains of cars can be faster than single cars because when drafting there's an effect where the car in front can get a small boost in speed or reduction in drag without bumping because of an effect from the car behind being in its draft. Is this true, and is it possible with the patch?

Quote from cannonfodder :

I read in a thread somewhere that on ovals trains of cars can be faster than single cars because when drafting there's an effect where the car in front can get a small boost in speed or reduction in drag without bumping because of an effect from the car behind being in its draft. Is this true, and is it possible with the patch?

it is true I'm not sure if it will work with the new patch

That's sort of like NASCAR restrictor plates that they use on the really high banked tracks to reduce speeds.

The whole train effect is because the restrictor plates make the cars so underpowered that 2 cars drafting are a LOT faster than 1 car by itself. That's probably true in all cases but it is not as drastic in cases where the engine has enough power and thus isn't as dependent on aerodynamics.

Essentially the main component of drag is the difference in pressure between the front and rear of a car. I.e., the pressure on the rear surface of the car is lower than the front, so you get a force trying to slow it down. With two cars running together, that rear car's front pressure is lower than it would otherwise be since it's sitting in the front car's low pressure area, so drag is reduced.

However, the rear car still has relatively high pressure at the front, which most likely creates a high pressure zone that extends to the rear of the front car, which gives it a boost too. End result is that both cars can run faster.

That's my guess anyway Would be fun to model it that way and see what happens though. I don't know if that'd be in the patch though.

Trouble is that that kind of racing gets repetitive real quick. There's little to no skill involved and your chances of success are entirely dependent on luck, timing, and environment.

Some may say "That's oval racing in a nutshell" but actually there is skill in oval racing when you have to actually lift in the corners, modulate the throttle on exit, and when you have enough horsepower to be in control of your own destiny.

So, in short: No. I don't want to see pack racing come to LFS. There is enough of it in the NR2003 servers (they all run the restrictor plate tracks ffs) and it is boring and repetitive. (and results in MASSIVE multicar pileups if even 1 person makes the slightest brainfart)

I don't think this would be considered a 'fix' since the feature isn't even in the current aero model. It is more like an aero model update that needs to be added. Because in the patch reports, they have mentioned the fixes for problems with the current model (ie: oversteer on slipstream, high nose bug, etc).

Scawen has said that he wants to work on the undertray physics later on too... maybe this could be implemented as well. Would be cool to see long drift trains on the oval or something. However, it will still be boring as usual if you don't get in that slipstream train. So basically I just see this feature for an attempt to gain more top speed, while at the same time, making the online racing rather risky for close racing. But it's real, so oh well

Quote from jtw62074 :

Essentially the main component of drag is the difference in pressure between the front and rear of a car. I.e., the pressure on the rear surface of the car is lower than the front, so you get a force trying to slow it down. With two cars running together, that rear car's front pressure is lower than it would otherwise be since it's sitting in the front car's low pressure area, so drag is reduced.

However, the rear car still has relatively high pressure at the front, which most likely creates a high pressure zone that extends to the rear of the front car, which gives it a boost too. End result is that both cars can run faster.

That's my guess anyway Would be fun to model it that way and see what happens though. I don't know if that'd be in the patch though.

I think you are close, but not quite. The most efficient wing is one that is infinitely long. Look at a glider for a good example. The reason is that the low pressure air on top of the wing will mix with the high(er) pressure air under the wing cause wing tip vortices. These vortices induce massive amounts of drag. That is why you see airplanes with those vertical wing tips. They try to reduce this effect.

If you put two cars back to back, it essentially makes a longer wing. Now two cars are traveling along with a much reduced drag because the turbulence they create is reduced to the signature of one car instead of two.

In order to pass from the draft, you really have to get a "run" on the car in front. You have to back off a bit, mash the gas and try to use the reduced drag to slingshot around. If you are just bumper to bumper, it does not work well for passing, but can make both cars go faster.

I don't know if this effect is modeled in LFS, but I doubt it.

Quote :

I don't know if this effect is modeled in LFS, but I doubt it.

It isn't, the only way to make the front car go faster while drafting is by contact (bumpdrafting). The reduced pressure zone at the rear of the front car doesn't seem to be there at the moment.

Yes this effect is true and best known in the NASCAR racing series.

Quote from jtw62074 :

However, the rear car still has relatively high pressure at the front, which most likely creates a high pressure zone that extends to the rear of the front car, which gives it a boost too. End result is that both cars can run faster.

id say thats almost right
imho the rear car itself is the high pressure that reduces the frontrunners drag

The effect is explained in a very intersting article, not only on slipstreaming (drafting) in NASCAR but also on social science and complexity. According to this article, it doesn't help the front car in open wheelers.

http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue5_2/ronfeldt/

Quote :

Drafting, which looks like tailgating or slipstreaming, occurs when a second car tucks closely behind the first, filling part of the vacuum. The car in front loses some of the drag at its rear. The second car still has a vacuum at its rear, but now has less air resistance in front. As a result, both cars quicken a bit — the two combined speed a few miles per hour faster than either can alone. This push-pull effect is stronger the closer the second car gets to the first .... (In contrast, open-wheel, motorcycle, and bicycle racers do not gain extra speed by drafting, because a trailing racer does not generate the forward aero push that stock cars do.)

Tweak you can't drift the oval. I only managed to do that once, drifted about 2/3s of a corner or a bit more in a FXR with Normals on. With normal LFS cars (LX4/6, XRT or FZ) it's impossible...

Quote from Primoz :

Tweak you can't drift the oval. I only managed to do that once, drifted about 2/3s of a corner or a bit more in a FXR with Normals on. With normal LFS cars (LX4/6, XRT or FZ) it's impossible...

I think he meant draft....

Besides wasn't there someone who drifted 2 linked laps on the oval

Quote from Krutch :

The effect is explained in a very intersting article, not only on slipstreaming (drafting) in NASCAR but also on social science and complexity. According to this article, it doesn't help the front car in open wheelers.

http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue5_2/ronfeldt/

Sorry, but that guy is a social scientist and does not know what he is talking about when it comes to drafting.
IRL (Open wheel cars running mostly on ovals) use drafting constantly and if two cars draft and one car does not, the single car gets left in the dust. They obviously do not use bump drafting, and one car is not constantly passing the other, yet they pull away still.
It goes back to my explanation above.

I thought this was in LFS already :

Just that the car behind had exaggerated reduction in drag?

It seems on OVAL servers ATM that the F08s together go faster than I can alone, but they just keep slingshoting past eachother due to the inaccurate effects on the rear car...

Anyone have concrete proof either way?

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

I thought this was in LFS already :

Just that the car behind had exaggerated reduction in drag?

It seems on OVAL servers ATM that the F08s together go faster than I can alone, but they just keep slingshoting past eachother due to the inaccurate effects on the rear car...

Anyone have concrete proof either way?

I don't have any proof one way or another. The fast lap time with the drafting cars are mostly attaind using the slingshots around the track. I doubt anybody has been patient enough to just draft behind another car to test it.

We should try that sometime just for our edification...

Edit: nice signature!

Quote from Primoz :

Tweak you can't drift the oval. I only managed to do that once, drifted about 2/3s of a corner or a bit more in a FXR with Normals on. With normal LFS cars (LX4/6, XRT or FZ) it's impossible...

its possible... with very very RED tires ;P

Heh, I've seen a full two round drift around the oval so it is indeed possible. With red tyres that is, yes

o rly?

Quote from NaBUru38 :

I don't think the developers are releasing an "aero patch" and a "low grip patch". They may be already finishing both physics models.

thats what it says on the main page...

Quote from Shotglass :

id say thats almost right
imho the rear car itself is the high pressure that reduces the frontrunners drag

Right, that's what I said

Unfortunately even with the new patch, the draft is still so big that it's still faster for 2 cars to slingshot off each other, like it always was.

One day I hope the devs cut that draft down to more realistic levels, to the point where a faster driver can pull away from a car he's just passed. It would bring more skill and less chaos to oval racing in LFS. Let the drivers and cars that are truly equal in skill and performance battle it out side-by-side; the current process of slingshot drafting is artificial at best and chaotic at worst.

Quote from jtw62074 :

Right, that's what I said

werent you talking about the rear car having a higher prussure in the front that fills the void instrad of the car itself filling it ?