The online racing simulator
Quote from v1rg0 :
Consider that instead of offering dozens of choices on tracks, 3 calendars were presented and we had to vote with our applications. In this scenario 3 out of every 4 members of the team hate FE4 and it doesn't get on the calendar. Yet in the poll it only took 11 individuals (less than one per team) to get it on the calendar. Here we are limited to someone elses choice, with the favorite choice of many individuals immediately dismissed.

So the wrong choice of track got picked through individual voting, therefore you WANT individual voting for the car classes? For what? To get it wrong again and have everyone complain more? At least they are considering to switch back if there isn't enough interest, and not just forcing us to run it.

It's a team league, therefore the car choice should be chosen by the teams, and not solely the drivers. The track selection was hindered by not being able to select 3 tracks IMO, but there's no perfect solution to everything so people have to work with what they have.


EDIT: Read your post completely wrong apparantly. Just ignore my post above.

Wouldn't the results not differ this time around since there is only 2 options instead of 20? Therefore if 3 out of 4 per team choose old GT1 and GT2, and the 1 chooses GT0, then the majority still wins?
Quote from DeadWolfBones :Not to get too poli-sci on this relatively mundane argument, but representative democracy works out pretty well for most governments. Direct democracy, on the other hand, is typically a disaster.

You do realise none of this contradicts anything I said? As such I don't see how it can be framed as an argument.

Our choice of cars is not going to create bread lines and homeless families.
Essentially, you're arguing that an individual vote can produce different results than a team-based vote. This is true.

However, my rebuttal is that while it's true for a 20-option track vote, it's not true for a 2-option class choices vote.

With 2 options, if each team places their vote based on an internal majority vote (as they should), the result is the same whether you use individuals or teams.
Quote from DeadWolfBones :Essentially, you're arguing that an individual vote can produce different results than a team-based vote. This is true.

However, my rebuttal is that while it's true for a 20-option track vote, it's not true for a 2-option class choices vote.

That limit is your personal choice. I can say on behalf of my whole team that our preferred scenario isn't one of the two chosen options. That is why we are pulling out from MoE.

There are a lot of people who feel the same way but just hate confrontation of any sort. I do this on their behalf. Anyway, have a good season everyone!
Quote from v1rg0 :That limit is your personal choice. I can say on behalf of my whole team that our preferred scenario isn't one of the two chosen options. That is why we are pulling out from MoE.

There are a lot of people who feel the same way but just hate confrontation of any sort. I do this on their behalf. Anyway, have a good season everyone!

Fair enough.

MoE is not going back to a single-class series any time soon, nor will it run a two-class series with classes as different as GT0 and GT2.

I hope you'll reconsider, but if not I'm sorry to hear it.
Quote from DeadWolfBones :
Following the failure of the LMP to gather much interest in MoE circles

I guess one is meant to read this: The LMP prototype was so horrible it's almost absurd.

LfsTweak meets MOE, I would expect this kind of action on demo servers. Just doesn't fit to a series, that used to be the most prestigious endurance series in LFS.

Also, has the use of a modified .exe been approved by the devs? I still remember when a certain person modified the game to have a McLaren F1 and as far as i can recall, the devs weren't very happy with the situation.
Another scenario: God forbid should a new patch be released and the modified exe become unusable. The current method of modifying will no longer work and a work-around cannot be deviced in the near future. You stop the series and declare a winner as the results stand at that moment? Or perhaps have some sort of reclassing done midseason with everybody having the ability to pick their cars and perhaps even classes again? That especially if the number of classes had to be cut down.

All that just doen't sound one bit like a professionally run series.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :
The loss to the series is a lot smaller fields and a lot less interesting racing.

With multiple classes we have a larger number of competitive teams and a more challenging racing environment (lapping, being lapped).

As things were the last season, there was more than enough drama with lapping. Especially in case of drivers that don't have much racing intelligence, both classes considered. If you reckon it's interesting to see shit hit the fan when cars try to lap each other, I guess it might be so for the entertainment purposes. I sure had fun watching the ridiculous action at IGTC with just one class. Does MOE want to be that series where very inexperienced racers can just hop onboard for the sake of having bigger numbers? That's not how it used to be. It was something special to take part in MOE, an achievement to be proud of. The standard for being accepted into the series was somewhat high, or that's how I recall it.
#132 - CSF
Quite honestly MoE admins faced the dilemma of change or die. They have tried to change it, and if it doesn't work, I guess it will die. The issue for MoE is blatantly the developers of the sim that it is run on. MoE is currently facing its third season on the same patch, something that surely neither interests those who have been active in MoE consistently in the past 2 1/2 years. Quite honestly, LFS is near abandonwear now with the lack of developments, and people who are still struggling to continue to find motivation to continue to promote and compete on a sim that is lacking any kind of update for many moons.


It remains a fact that regardless of what the admins do, we will have lost a lot of teams for this season. That is not because of MoE, that is simply because LFS has lost it's appeal to those who used to find it compelling two years ago. The last true MoE season is likely to be 08/09. Just now we are treading water, regardless of GT0/GT1/GT2 etc etc.
Maybe I'm not a driver who was fighting for podium in last MoE season, anyway I think I have a kind of legitimacy about endurance races because of my real experience.

A serie called Master of Endurance which have only one class wouldn't be an endurance serie for me. Indeed multi-class is the basis of endurance and overtaking slower class is one of the main part of endurance race. A good real driver like Romain Dumas (who is for me the best current endurance racer) make the difference when he is lapping slower cars. He is a professionnal driver and I can assure that that kind of driver make the difference when he is lapping cars, and they are lapping in general some gentlemen driver and some young unexperimented driver all the time. Then you have the choice between endurance and team-stint-hotlapping. Let choose

Then about number of teams in each class, I'm not sure to see the problem. Indeed last season GT1 grid was almost empty after 24 hours race. GT2 field was full of new teams that weren't there at the beginning of the season (I know that about that point I'm not in the best place to speak). So adding a third class, I think isn't going to creat some poor battle on each class because as far as I heard, GT2 field is going to be strong again, and so GT0 (or GT1, we gonna see) is going to make another field to catch up the free spot of GT1.

Moreover I think that admins reached to increase the interest in LFS that some "famous alien" have loosen by creating something new and creat a kind of new challenge. Maybe it wasn't the best choice, but at least they are trying to change the things.

Finally the best thing for MoE (and for LFS?) would be these "famous aliens" to come back. So, stop talking and let's race !
Quote from plehto :Also, has the use of a modified .exe been approved by the devs? I still remember when a certain person modified the game to have a McLaren F1 and as far as i can recall, the devs weren't very happy with the situation.

Yes, it's been approved to post and use the modded .exe file.
Ok, from my opinion.......

MOE has been the biggest thing in LFS to achieve for. It does what it says on the tin - The Masters of Endurance!!!!

It doesn't need any gimmicks, any new classes, safety cars or anything at all. It simply is a league to find out which team is the Masters of Endurance... The best team in LFS at the GTR cars.

I admit that we have lost alot of good teams and drivers in the last 2 years since Scawen has been working on the tyre physics, but we have also had teams and drivers to replace them. Maybe they are not as good as the "aliens" but still, they want to win.

If you beat them in MOE, you can still claim that you hold the title of the best endurance team in LFS. You can only beat what is infront of you, not any legends.

I hope that you guys respect MOE for what it is. The only people telling me that MOE is dying are admins, but no racers are saying that. Can I get some confirmation that teams and drivers think it is boring and needs a change?

I also ask because it had taken us years to build up a team able to challenge for MOE, then when we get there, it seems the admins might move the goalposts.. I wonder if any other teams feel the same?

Maybe when the patch comes out we will see alot of the old skool come back to LFS, but until then, it means as much to any team to be accepted in MOE as it did years ago, and I'm sure they will do their best to uphold the standards and commitment it takes to be a part of the most prestigious league in our sim racing community.
Quote from jasonmatthews :Ok, from my opinion.......

MOE has been the biggest thing in LFS to achieve for. It does what it says on the tin - The Masters of Endurance!!!!

It doesn't need any gimmicks, any new classes, safety cars or anything at all. It simply is a league to find out which team is the Masters of Endurance... The best team in LFS at the GTR cars.

I admit that we have lost alot of good teams and drivers in the last 2 years since Scawen has been working on the tyre physics, but we have also had teams and drivers to replace them. Maybe they are not as good as the "aliens" but still, they want to win.

If you beat them in MOE, you can still claim that you hold the title of the best endurance team in LFS. You can only beat what is infront of you, not any legends.

I hope that you guys respect MOE for what it is. The only people telling me that MOE is dying are admins, but no racers are saying that. Can I get some confirmation that teams and drivers think it is boring and needs a change?

I also ask because it had taken us years to build up a team able to challenge for MOE, then when we get there, it seems the admins might move the goalposts.. I wonder if any other teams feel the same?

Maybe when the patch comes out we will see alot of the old skool come back to LFS, but until then, it means as much to any team to be accepted in MOE as it did years ago, and I'm sure they will do their best to uphold the standards and commitment it takes to be a part of the most prestigious league in our sim racing community.

+1.
Quote from jasonmatthews :I hope that you guys respect MOE for what it is. The only people telling me that MOE is dying are admins, but no racers are saying that. Can I get some confirmation that teams and drivers think it is boring and needs a change?

Yes, but.....

Quote from jasonmatthews :I also ask because it had taken us years to build up a team able to challenge for MOE, then when we get there, it seems the admins might move the goalposts.. I wonder if any other teams feel the same?

...also this.

wish it had a black&white solution
Quote from jasonmatthews :Ok, from my opinion.......

MOE has been the biggest thing in LFS to achieve for. It does what it says on the tin - The Masters of Endurance!!!!

It doesn't need any gimmicks, any new classes, safety cars or anything at all. It simply is a league to find out which team is the Masters of Endurance... The best team in LFS at the GTR cars.

I admit that we have lost alot of good teams and drivers in the last 2 years since Scawen has been working on the tyre physics, but we have also had teams and drivers to replace them. Maybe they are not as good as the "aliens" but still, they want to win.

If you beat them in MOE, you can still claim that you hold the title of the best endurance team in LFS. You can only beat what is infront of you, not any legends.

I hope that you guys respect MOE for what it is. The only people telling me that MOE is dying are admins, but no racers are saying that. Can I get some confirmation that teams and drivers think it is boring and needs a change?

I also ask because it had taken us years to build up a team able to challenge for MOE, then when we get there, it seems the admins might move the goalposts.. I wonder if any other teams feel the same?

Maybe when the patch comes out we will see alot of the old skool come back to LFS, but until then, it means as much to any team to be accepted in MOE as it did years ago, and I'm sure they will do their best to uphold the standards and commitment it takes to be a part of the most prestigious league in our sim racing community.

+2
I know I'm only useless random man and I respect all the work you've done but I am simply not interested in downloading anything additional, I just want to drive LFS as it is, not as you imagine how it should be like.

I also agree with Jason, not saying I am active much but I wanted to make my time for good old MoE endurance battles but since it isn't what it used to be I am not quite sure if I am gonna take a part in this GT0,1,2,3 stuff...
MoE without 3id?

One less reason to watch......
Quote from z-ro 8 :
One less reason to watch......

One less reason to take part in MoE...
Quote from z-ro 8 :MoE without 3id?

One less reason to watch......

I'm sure they can be replaced.
In fact it seems as if it isn't MoE which is dying but LFS in general...maybe MoE don't need to have any new but LFS need for sure.

+1 with Jason
Stop getting biased and create your own view on this. It could have been more clear in the first case but sometimes it is not as good as it gets. The unavoidable attempt to create something new is a good idea, but as in the history of mankind ideas are not made to be perfect from the beginning.

A lot of people just can't judge it, if you haven't followed the steps of evolution you just can't get a view on everything. That's why your answer is biased and incorrect. I am very honest in such things and i must say it is not the best solution anyhow, but just get along. Why not just go ahead and try it instead of bitching around. Go write a post why you don't like it. It's almost the same, take GT1 and GT2 (not GT0) and have fun. (possible answer: the exact opposite of what i just said)

Also, if you want something to rant about, i give you a tip. We have got three lazy-ass developers who are chilling on mountains of money and now decided for themselves to let the community down and just rest a bit on the statement "It's done when it's done". If you go on accepting all that shit you end up with S2 non-alpha maybe early 2178. If anyone comes up with a different, non orthodox decision it's bad its demo server like it wrong.

No Ideas, No Arguments, No Protest, No Will - No Revolution

It's just my viewpoint although i have drifted off into the general lfs lane. Anyway if you don't like it, I don't care, it's my view and i don't care for such bullshit and people beeing emo.

I agree with your view bashor. MoE wanted to try a change because LFS had not. With the drop of teams and the continuous lack of preparation at the end of last year showed not that MoE was dead, but that people were getting bored of LFS in general. The fact MoE ran the same thing year after year wasn't much help, so they proposed a change. I wish however a poll was made at the end of last season to see if a change was really needed or not, and also what could be changed. The communication between admins and drivers was not too great as well throughout the off season, but that shouldn't result in constant moaning instead of ideas and ways to move on.
I agree communication could have been better. The admins were just as tired as the drivers at the end of last season, and there was doubt another season would even be run (or run with the same admin team), so a poll wasn't really foremost on our minds.

During the summer the admins' interest was somewhat revived due to the introduction of the LMP, and while that failed to work out, it did give us a little kickstart and pushed us toward the GT0. Now, at least, we have a renewed interest in giving the series the attention it deserves, and maybe some drivers will as well.
Quote from baSh0r :Stop getting biased and create your own view on this.

Quote from baSh0r :
Anyway if you don't like it, I don't care, it's my view and i don't care for such bullshit and people beeing emo.

Touche Sir, Touche.
I know I probably haven't my say there, since I've never driven in MoE before, and I doubt I'll ever do, but obviously you have to accept people from outside the series to post there since this forum is public.

I find it pretty much significative that MoE is at the moment the only LFS based endurance league clearly in big doubts about its future. Obviously LFS non-swapping drivers leagues seem to be endlessly struggling for interrest and seem to be endlessly deem to have unstable fields. But at the moment endurance leagues are still quite unhurt by this effect since the team side of the things bring by itself enough stability to all participants to go forward.

Basically, in my mind, the main problem of MoE at the moment is that it can't accept the fact that having consequent turn-up rates within the teams or within the drivers is something you can't eliminate. This barely has anything to do about the lack of updates, the devs could well release one new track a month and do a large physic update, this would probably have a very small impact on the field. Look at the 2005-2008 period, which remains an era of frequent updates(though not so often content based). At that time, MoE had a similar turn-up rate, though you can't realistically argue it was because LFS felt like being on an abandonware like it is now. The fact is that MoE's main public is, as far as I know, composed of teenagers and young adults who are in a stage of their life where they get new passions, and often experient changes in their living styles, which means they can't always give a strong and constant involvement to what remains a very demanding league, and therefore decide to just step down at some point. I belive it's one of the reason for this big turn-up rate, but now I might be totally wrong, I don't know.

Therefore MoE has to accept that its legends are unlikely to come back, and its current teams might well just withdraw at some point, should it be in 3 years or 3 months. Obviously there is/will be a need for new teams, but MoE does barely anything for new participants to take over. This is first of all a problem of organisation. Just an example: last year the field got smaller and smaller, to finish to 19 cars at the end of the season. I didn't quite understand why no more reserve teams were called for back up, to fill up the field and not make the whole thing look like a dead competition, but also(and that's even more important) to allow those teams to prepare for the next season in race conditions. This is also a matter of mentality, most teams that could well have the abilities to be decent midfielders in MoE are not interrested, simply because(and I'll be pretty much critisized for saying that) MoE people are seen from the outside as thick elitist aliens who have sheer laptimes on short run as only obsession. It is true or not, I don't know and that's not the problem, but that's what I gathered from speaking with other non-MoE people. That impression of poor mentality is also shown on track, with a large amount of drivers taking the whole thing as a sprint race and creating absurd incidents, and teams acting like if there were in professional sport, reporting every single accident occuring on track or almost. Not to mention the aggressive pre-season arguments we have every year, which under much more complicated apparences, can be well summed-up as binar debates. This hurts pretty much the image of MoE IMO, trust it or not but you see those things well from the outside and some people do care about that.

About the 3 classes system, I do think it is a mistake, as most people. Some people before me explained why it is not probably a bad thing for the league. Honestly though, I thought at first that the GT1 class would be scrapped to let only GT0 and GT2, since GT1 is the class that will suffer the most this season according to most people. Now I'm quite astonished by DWB's argument, that GT0+GT2 would cause too mcuh incidents, considering last season's events. We all know that the ability of lapping traffic(and being lapped) is a keypoint in endurance racing. MoE is supposed to be the pinacle in endurance racing, yet its drivers are told to be unable to deal with a difference of speed between the fastest and the slowest class that shouldn't be much greater than around 12-13 seconds per lap. Yet in Desire of Patience you see GTR and LRF being on track together without much problem, while the league's standards are supposed to be really lower than MoE's. And I won't even mention real life with LMPs getting with GTs, even in sometimes difficult conditions(rain, night). Yes I know I'll be critisized and flamed for that again, but for me it's also a driver problem in my mind, if people didn't act like if there were hotlapping(like what I saw sometimes on the streams last year) and were a bit responsible and sensitive, we wouldn't end up with those kind of issues.

So basically in an ideal world MoE wouldn't have any threat for a long long future. You'd always find enough people to put the interrest it deserves, and put enough efforts to keep it well alive, should it be as drivers, team managers, admins, or streamers. Yet in reality the issues are probably harder to cope with, with the ego quarrels and the fact that everyone have very different visions on MoE's future. Not to mention that most(if not all) admins seem to get tired of endlessly making(good or bad) compromises and doing everything to put people together.

Just the two cents of an external observer who has nothing to do there, feel free to just ignore them aswell.
As I've mentioned in the other thread, I was all for MoE keeping it's classes and track schedule so that new teams have some established "pace" to strive for and this was going to be the first season where we could have a perfectly balanced GT1 and GT2 class.

I'm not going to comment on the LMP/GT0 developments, as that horse was beaten do death already.

About your comment how it's the organizers problem that the field is empty and why aren't more teams allowed to race.. It's because they just aren't good enough. You can consider me a thick hotlapping alien all you want, but when you have several year old teams who do some of the stupidest shit on track and never seem to make progress or learn anything from one season to the other, I don't see how a team with even less experience can be expected to perform better.

This is not the organizers fault, it's the fault of established teams who don't pick up inexperienced drivers and teach them stuff, make them their B lineup and give them a chance to race. But how can this be expected from teams anyway, as you've said.. young people, different interests, attention deficit disorders and the human condition that makes everyone want to win - stop people from sharing knowledge because then you're just sharing your advantage and you'd have to work harder to get an edge over someone.

Most fast drivers are natural talents who don't really put in a lot of work into setups/driving/preparation and the little work they do put in - they don't want to share it. I'm completely fine with this, because I wasn't suddenly fast when I first got into a car. In fact it took nearly 3 MoE seasons for me to become "competitive" and part of that was also that the competition got slightly worse. But, what I did know, even in my first ever race (which was the 24 h of AS5 in the season when Cyber Racing won it), was that I better move TO HELL OUT OF THE WAY when there was a blue flag. There was no multiclass racing back then, so a blue flag wasn't a inter-class suggestion, it was a waved blue flag which ment you had absolutely NO RIGHTS on the track (to the line, to the corner or anything else). I remember seeing a orange/black skin and 04. - P. Purhonen in my mirror several times during the race and every time I made damn sure I didn't cost him even half a tenth. I slowed down and predictably moved off the racing line before any corner. On the other hand you had teams like T7R who had much more "experience" and yet managed to race Petri and Norbi in the KY2 round of that season for several laps, not moving even after haunking/blinking lights, later trying to excuse themselves how they "didn't see the blue flag" or hear their team mates telling them over TS that it was the leaders lapping them.

I literally can't remember the last time someone followed the waved blue flag rule in MoE (in the class we were driving). In fact our TS conversations consisted of LFS Remote watcher warning the driver at the time that we were about to lap Prodrive/CQ/nFusion/TDRT and to really expect the stupidest and most unpredictable behavior in the world. So, having the front half of the GTAL field in MoE is not something I'd look forward too, especially since the "new kids" always seem to think "I bet I can make that corner before he catches me" instead of "God, I better move out of the way before I screw something up, again."
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Enough with the ad hominem attacks, guys.
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FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG