Dear LFS community,

I bought the S1 license some month before the release of the first S2 alpha version in 2005. The unexpected early S2 alpha release was a shock for me because I was good trained and prepared for more S1 online races. But in the S2 demo, I don't get my "I love it" feeling from the "old" S1 times back... There are a lot of improvements but some terrible changes (like the all time reverbed engine sound), too.

Ok, this is one thing... but another thing bothers me at all: I can't play my licensed S1 content on a S2 server... the whole old-established community moved to the new version... and of course, almost no one is opening a S1 license compatible server again. So I'm stucked to the S1/S2 demo to find someone to play with... Great! My S1 license is worthless... I only paid it for offline driving.

Of course, I know that developing the game and provide the servers costs money... But compared to the old-established community which is playing S1 since years for 18 Euro, I paid the same price and be only allowed to play it some month before S2 Alpha release... and that's it... Hey, I bought it for online playing and not for offline content!

So, now I'm forced to upgrade... but I don't have the time to play so much... At the moment it would be far enough to play all the S1 contents with S2 players when they are driving the old tracks on S2 servers (Because no one of the S2 players is switching back to the old content willingly). They could choose the new cars... I drive the old... that's ok for me. But no, I'm "banned" from the community till I upgrade to S2. illepall

And the current solution is not fair related to all the new players/buyers, too. They have to pay the whole price of 36 Euro to use S2 with other players online... they also pay S1 for some old fashioned content which they never had used before... they don't used any servers in the past... they don't needed any support in the past... but they pay the same price like other users years before.

And this issue is continuing... if S3 will be released in about 2 years (or later), new buyers probably have to pay 18+18+18 Euro... Great policy! They can get commercial retail games for the same price which have far more content and are dedicated to realistic racing simulations, too (like GTR, rFactor, etc.).

Currently I've found the best solution for my issue:
Only playing the S2 demo for free with other all time demo players which never payed something for the LFS developers and some of them will never pay anything in the future.
So don't "wait" for my upgrade to the S2 license in the next future... because I don't want to get tricked again!

It's not easy for me to write something like this related to my most favorite racing game... but these are the facts I'm confronted with.

Sincerely,
Ex-Driver Robbson.

That's an intersting point actually.

(For the record it's 12+12+12, not 18..... S2 is 24.)

I do agree that you should be able to access S1 Content only on S2 equipped servers... IE you can join any race on S1 Tracks, but only drive S1 cars...

Not sure how that would work, but it seems like it could be done somewhat easily, not that I have any idea if that's true or not.... It just doesn't seem overly comlplex.

well if you look, the s1 licenses aren't even sold anymore... just striaght to s2 for the 24lbs. so bascially, you've already paid half the price for the full licesne, it's like an investment. just pay the other 12 lbs. and you're back in the game. s3 won't be coming out for ages anyways...

So, you have an old piece of software that's not compatible with the newest, latest and greatest release? Wow. Sounds like every other software product I've ever purchased.

I think I'm going to complain to EA. I bought Battlefield 1942 but now nobody plays it anymore as they've all moved on to Battlefield 2. That sucks! I want my money back!

The bottom line is that you're not FORCED to upgrade as you say. You can either get S2 and play, or you can keep S1 and not play. The choice is yours. If you like LFS at all then you should pay to upgrade to S2 and be done with it. Just be thankful that S2 isn't considered a "full product" like most other games or you'd be paying full price!

Yeah, but no matter how you look at it - he's still got something that's a little bit useless considering he can't use what he paid for online anymore.

People still play the old Counterstrike from ages ago (non-source version) and that's MUCH older than S1.

I remember this being discussed before and i think i can tell yah that its not going to happen.

I do think it is a good idea to let S1 users play S1 content on S2 servers.

And cue-ball what you said about BF is a completely different situation to LFS.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Yeah, but no matter how you look at it - he's still got something that's a little bit useless considering he can't use what he paid for online anymore.

Sure he can. Everything that he paid for still works just as it did when he bought it. Just because nobody else plays S1 anymore doesn't mean the software suddenly doesn't work. It only means that people have moved on to something newer and more feature-filled.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

That's an intersting point actually.
(For the record it's 12+12+12, not 18..... S2 is 24.)

I've used my currency in Germany and this is EUR(O).

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

I do agree that you should be able to access S1 Content only on S2 equipped servers... IE you can join any race on S1 Tracks, but only drive S1 cars...

Yes, I also think so... but it is not working... I can only play on S1 servers. Perhaps this is a bug because most players are S2 customers now but I want to play a little bit and upgrade to new tracks and cars later when I have more time. I still have a lot of work with all the S1 stuff.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Not sure how that would work, but it seems like it could be done somewhat easily, not that I have any idea if that's true or not.... It just doesn't seem overly comlplex.

So I'm still believing that this issue is for forcing players to buy S2....

Robbson.

Wow.

You are one cheap guy.

I don't even want to think of how you explain other things in life to yourself.

Quote from Robbson :

So I'm still believing that this issue is for forcing players to buy S2....

Again, nobody is forcing you to do anything. Your copy of LFS (S1) still does everything that it did when you bought it. No functionality has been removed and, in fact, functionality has been added since you get the new physics and graphics updates that the S2 users get.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Sure he can. Everything that he paid for still works just as it did when he bought it. Just because nobody else plays S1 anymore doesn't mean the software suddenly doesn't work. It only means that people have moved on to something newer and more feature-filled.

yeah, but... no.

The point is there is still the same content that exists in S2, and everything else is the same save for the content. Why should he be restricted when he's got the same program - which he did pay for - just not the same content??? All the while Demo users who paid nothing race happily away for free. Somethings amiss there.

Quote from skiingman :

Wow.

You are one cheap guy.

I don't even want to think of how you explain other things in life to yourself.

LOL

Yeah, fine, he's cheap (LFS is not expensive) but he still has a valid point in terms of semantics.

If S1 licenses are no longer being sold and their online worth/usability is now pretty low, what about offering an upgrade to S2 at a reduced rate of perhaps £6-8 ?

Most S1 registered people would have already upgraded to S2 if they had any intention of doing so, and a lot of those people still on S1 have quite possibly forgotten about the game, but a email dropping into their inbox offering a cheap upgrade to S2 might just be enough to temp them back, no ?

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Sure he can. Everything that he paid for still works just as it did when he bought it. Just because nobody else plays S1 anymore doesn't mean the software suddenly doesn't work. It only means that people have moved on to something newer and more feature-filled.

S1 and S2 are not exclusive, one includes the other so it should work both ways shouldn't it? In fact, many people play the S1 content everyday still - why shouldn't he be allowed to just because it's "all" that he paid for?

Quote from stay :

If S1 licenses are no longer being sold and their online worth/usability is now pretty low, what about offering an upgrade to S2 at a reduced rate of perhaps £6-8 ?

Most S1 registered people would have already upgraded to S2 if they had any intention of doing so, and a lot of those people still on S1 have quite possibly forgotten about the game, but a email dropping into their inbox offering a cheap upgrade to S2 might just be enough to temp them back, no ?

No that wouldn't be fair to everyone else.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

yeah, but... no.

The point is there is still the same content that exists in S2, and everything else is the same save for the content.

No, the point is that he doesn't have S2 and shouldn't expect access to S2 servers unless he pays to upgrade.

Quote :

Why should he be restricted when he's got the same program - which he did pay for - just not the same content???

For the same reason that people who own Counter-Strike can't play with people who own Counter-Strike Source. They are two different products. Why would the devs want to spend time making S1 work on S2 servers? S1 is an old product that they no longer sell and there's plenty to do on S2. No company in their right mind is going to spend time and resources on an old product when 95% of their users and revenue have moved on to the newer product.

Quote :

All the while Demo users who paid nothing race happily away for free. Somethings amiss there.

He can feel free to join the demo racers then. He has access to that content and by your own admission they're quite happy with it.

The bottom line is that he's using an old software version and there's a much newer product out. He's got what he paid for, and no less. Everything that he could do before he can do now. The fact that everyone else has moved on to greener pastures is just a fact of life that S1 users must face. Upgrade or get left behind. Simple as that.

@Cue-Ball

I always read your argument from other players in the German community. But you've forgotten one very important point: S1 gets older... but it doesn't get cheaper like almost all the other games out there.

So if I buy Grand Prix 3 now for 2 Euro/Dollars or whatever, of course I can't demand any big user community today.

I think, the most similar license system is the one of Guild Wars. So you buy the game for 39 Euro... and can play the full online content... and you can still play it because it's offered for 39 Euro and no Cent less.
If Guild Wars continues (the new game is called GW Factions) you can still buy the old game (with same price) and play it with a lot of players online because it's combined with the new game.

Robbson.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

No, the point is that he doesn't have S2 and shouldn't expect access to S2 servers unless he pays to upgrade.

....

The problem is, technically it's the SAME program. He doesn't have the S1 Physics, or the S1 Sound and whatnot. That's where your analogy is flawed, they are not separate programs. Every other aspect of his S1 license is just like ours, it's only the content that is different, thus it's nothing like CS vs CS:S, those are infact totally different pieces of software. We're only talking cars/tracks here, if it helps look at it this way: he's running S2 with an S1 license.

Quote from Robbson :

@Cue-Ball

I always read your argument from other players in the German community. But you've forgotten one very important point: S1 gets older... but it doesn't get cheaper like almost all the other games out there.

So if I buy Grand Prix 3 now for 2 Euro/Dollars or whatever, of course I can't demand any big user community today.

I think, the most similar license system is the one of Guild Wars. So you buy the game for 39 Euro... and can play the full online content... and you can still play it because it's offered for 39 Euro and no Cent less.
If Guild Wars continues (the new game is called GW Factions) you can still buy the old game (with same price) and play it with a lot of players online because it's combined with the new game.

Robbson.

But you didn't buy S1 today. You bought it when it was still the latest and greatest. If you had bought it yesterday (which you can't, because it's no longer sold) then I'd see your point. But since you bought it when it was still the current release your argument holds no water. Just because "Guild Wars" still has a lot of players means nothing. For every old game you name that still has a large community I can name 10 that do not.

If I buy Photoshop today and next week the new version comes out, I will still have gotten what I paid for, just as you have.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

if it helps look at it this way: he's running S2 with an S1 license.

He's got an S1 license. You said it, not me. While it would be nice if he could connect to S2 servers, that's not what he paid for. He paid for the S1 content and that's what he's got.

What happens when the S2 server he's connected to changes to a track/car that he doesn't have access to? How would S1 handle that since it was never coded to have those items? The devs would have to spend a considerable amount of time addressing problems like these to cater to a very few people who are too "thrifty" to buy S2. Why should they do that? That's a LOT of extra work with no benefit to them or to the community.

I would say that in an ideal world S1 content should be playable on S2 servers. But we don't live in an ideal world. I've paid £24 for LFS (£36 actually), and it's lasted me 3 years. So it's cost me £8 per year, £0.66 per month and just over £0.02 per day - thats pretty good value. If S3 comes out in 18 months my daily cost on the day of release will be the same - £0.02 per day.

LFS is NOT expensive. Compare LFS to the cost of a powerful enough computer in ANY country, and LFS remains small change, so no one should EVER be allowed to critisise it for being expensive. If they claim it's too much then how come they can afford a PC good enough to run the demo.

Get over it mate, buy S2, and enjoy it. I don't know what you're referring to about the other sims you mentioned - GTR will be replaced in a few months with GTR1.5, GTL will be replaced soon afterwards, rFactor2 will doubtless come out in a year or two. And each of these will cost about £30 on average - nearly three times the cost of S3. So don't bicker about how hard done by, because you're not, you're just being tight.

@Cue-Ball

Because you have the content of S1 in S2 (I can activate my account in the S2 release), you can't compare it with any other game out there where a new game is a completely different installation/account.

And for what you have paid the S1 license in the past? I will tell you: For online driving and that is the thing what LFS is all about!!
I don't want to pay for offline content only... One track would be enough, if I could race with the non-demo community and logging my stats... but even that's not possible.

And think about this again:
You paid 18 Euro or 12 Pounds or what ever... played LFS online for about 3 years... and I paid the same price (I don't got any special offer for an aged product!) but can only drive 3 months online... Do you get my point? That's not fair to new / later users... and they will think about moving to other racing games and this should be prevented at all!

Robbson.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

He's got an S1 license. You said it, not me. While it would be nice if he could connect to S2 servers, that's not what he paid for. He paid for the S1 content and that's what he's got.

Right, it just would be good if he could use the content he paid for online, which really means only displaying servers with tracks he has access too, since his car restriction is limited on his own PC.

Quote :

What happens when the S2 server he's connected to changes to a track/car that he doesn't have access to? How would S1 handle that since it was never coded to have those items? The devs would have to spend a considerable amount of time addressing problems like these to cater to a very few people who are too "thrifty" to buy S2. Why should they do that? That's a LOT of extra work with no benefit to them or to the community.

If the S2 server changed to a different track, he would just get booted, OR he would be forced to spectate because of his license status, which would be better because it would entice him to buy the extra content! S1 is coded to have those items, because it's all the same program. It's only access that is restriced via the license.

But you're right - it MAY be a lot of work (it might not) and it probably isn't worth it at this point, but from a consumer perspective it's silly I think.

I agree that a S1 licensed player should be able to play S1 cars on S1 tracks. But only that. Allthough you probably feel cheated, I can't really sympatize with you. If you bought it only a month or two before S2's release, then you really can't blame anyway. Once the S2 demo was out (I reckon you mean that you bought S1 license before the first full S2 alpha version was released) people pretty much moved over to that, right? Not to be rude, but to me it doesn't make sense to buy the older game when the next one is right around the corner, and available for free play (demo) with the bigger part of the community.

But as said, the solution is easy. You've already bought half of it, haven't you? So just pay the remaining half and you'll have S2 It's the most bang-for-buck game out there. I would gladly pay $10 or $20 more for the game.

You invested in LFS knowing full well that it would come in stages. It was logical that S2 would be an entirely different program (though logic was disproved, so you ended up with more than you paid for in terms of content).

With hindsight it's easy to say you were shortchanged, but before you clicked 'Buy' you knew LFS would be updated.