Hiyas, I got this fantastic game on Friday, and I am really enjoying racing against real people. It makes a welcome change to all those souless driving games where you race against very predictable AI.

I've been enjoying the racing very much, but last night my driving technique came under some fire, because though I don't consider myself wreckless I am quite a tough cookie to overtake at times. For instace on the straight at blackwood, if I see a car pulling out to pass me I will move out to block the other car, and I generally move quite far to the right, but leaving the other car JUST enough room so he's not on the grass.Now as far as I am aware, in real motorsports a move like this is legal, I'm allowed to move once to defend my position as long as I'm not zigzagging along the straight.

The other move that came under fire is if I defend the inside of a corner and the car behind tries to go around me, it's not uncommon for me to take my natural racing line and squeeze the other car onto the rumble strip. This is another move I've seen done in many F1 races, and the commentators generally don't see it as being a bad move unless there is contact or the first car actually pushes the other car off the track by driving into them.

I just wanted to post this so I can find out other peoples views on defending your position in a race.

Technically defending the inside line and pushing someone onto the rumble strips is illegal as that means they are exiting the white lines and therefore you are pushing them off the track...

However the other view is, you have the line, they should yeild until they can actually overtake...

You should only make one move, and any faster driver can easily make 2 moves to overtake, not just brake later than you

Personally, on a track, 1 blocking move is fine by me as long as there is no contact and you yeild as they pass you

Which by the sounds of it you are more than willing to do

This makes good racing and very interesting to drive, and enertaining to watch!

I tend to get aggravated if someone deliberately pulls out in front of me when i am clerarly faster. Although you may be technically correct and pass it off as defending the line, its a case of good sportsmanship which is, to me, far more important than winning. This is, after all, a leisure activity and there is no money at stake. When people are overly agressive they can end up just damaging someone else's race. Now I like a good, close race, but I like a clean, sportsman-like attitude. What you are talking about is a very fine line and should be an interesting debate.

if you're going to be that aggressive, I'd suggest you make sure you're a very capable driver first. Swerving out to block someone passing you on a straight at a reasonable clip is a very dangerous and aggravating thing to do, not something I've seen many people partake in. More enjoyable racing is to be had if you pick a defensive line in the first place and hold it, if you get passed then try to pass them back. Imho.

Technically you're within the rules, but I would still recommend against it. Blocking on the straight is pretty uncommon and imho should only be done if there's still enough distance between both cars.
Unless you're using the chase view, don't force other players to go wide, simply because you usually can't really tell how much room the other car still has.

I think it's a case of who you are racing with and against . . . .

If you a in a very close race with a fellow racer that you know and can race very well with then by all means use everything that your disposal . . .

But, if you are racing against much faster drivers who are themselves racing others then maybe your actions could just be taken as being stubborn and dis-courteous. There is a time and a place for everything . ..

Keep that up and you will keep coming under fire...

The guy that decides to squeeze you back may not leave you some room.

Saying about defending lines on straights all depends on where you are on the straight. If you are gettin close to a corner then taking a defensive line on the straight is expected IMO. But as it had been said, IRL you are allowed one move to block. It is possible to hold faster drivers up, which seems to annoy the faster driver (sum may say that is dis - corteous to hold them up for a long time) Ive copmleted a 5 lap race at blackwood in the xfg and won while 2nd place was a good 0.5 - 1 sec faster.
As long as you only move once, and dont force people off track eg. On to the grass / into wall etc then IMO its racing.

About the "how long is it good to defend your line"-discussion:
I personally love defending and I love behing held off. But I only do it when I know the other driver. When I know him and expect him to behave wisely (and there is the possibility that I remain in my position until the end of the race) I will defend my position as long as possible without being unfair.
On the other hand I also enjoy having to work for a position. This is very fun in the FOX because it isn't too fast and dirty air adds a lot of challange to it. On public servers you can sometimes see me playing with my bait for a few laps before actually making the pass - just for fun.
So in my book everyone can defend his position as long as he can. The only restriction is that you should never cause an accident. Never touch the attacker, and never make a move that forces the attacker off the track.

In three words:
Fair but resolute.

On a straight that means: Take a defensive line, but every racingline on a straight is straight itself.

Vain

Quote from Peteuplink :

For instace on the straight at blackwood, if I see a car pulling out to pass me I will move out to block the other car, and I generally move quite far to the right, but leaving the other car JUST enough room so he's not on the grass.Now as far as I am aware, in real motorsports a move like this is legal, I'm allowed to move once to defend my position as long as I'm not zigzagging along the straight.

Illegal to block. Illegal to swerve on a straight. Illegal to obstruct a faster car on the straight. You are allowed to move once to defend a corner etc but can not move back. You are allowed to drive a tough line through a corner to make it hard for your opponent to pass, but you can't force him off the road you can only out-fox him.

Some rules I have seen seem pretty tough, like letting faster cars past on the straight. In general swerving is not accepted.

Quote from Gunn :

Illegal to block. Illegal to swerve on a straight. Illegal to obstruct a faster car on the straight. You are allowed to move once to defend a corner etc but can not move back

This is actually wrong...

FiA rules state you may make one defensive move and return to your racing line, this has been a get out clause used many times by M.Schumacher

Quote from Thorvertonian :

This is actually wrong...

FiA rules state you may make one defensive move and return to your racing line, this has been a get out clause used many times by M.Schumacher

Indeed you can defend, but FIA also says, don't swerve on a straight. Changing line is not the same as jumping in front of an overtaking car.

Quote from Gunn :

Indeed you can defend, but FIA also says, don't swerve on a straight. Changing line is not the same as jumping in front of an overtaking car.

Does it really? Excellent. I had a hand in rewriting some of the rules for our league recently, this was a point of contention - trying to maintain the 'move to maintain defensive position' ability, but not allowing any swerve blocking.

Quote :

if I see a car pulling out to pass me I will move out to block the other car

As I see it: If the other racer's drafting you and makes his move and you make your blocking move AFTER he has it's very likely that you'll clip his front as he'll be quite faster and that's plain nasty. If you manage to make your blocking move at the same time as he's making his move then it's safe because he'll see you infront of him continously and he gets a chance, if there is time, to make his second move on the other side (which should NOT be blocked). The latter looks very neat in replays (unless you're the one being passed and your ego gets in the way ).

Quote :

The other move that came under fire is if I defend the inside of a corner and the car behind tries to go around me

Generally speaking I don't think there's need to "defend" in that case, let enough room to avoid having the other driver skidding into (which will likely happen if he bumps on the kerbs) you and try to maintain enough speed/momentum to be faster in the exit.

As Al said, this is a leisurely activity - no need to be too aggressive. Playful and sportsman-like, sure. If you think a move will end up in an accident, then it most likely will, so avoid it and think up your "counter-attack" instead.

Quote from Blowtus :

Does it really? Excellent. I had a hand in rewriting some of the rules for our league recently, this was a point of contention - trying to maintain the 'move to maintain defensive position' ability, but not allowing any swerve blocking.

I posted a thread somewhere around here about blue flag rules and in that topic I recall posting links to the FIA rules about overtaking. If you can dig that up I'm sure you will find a wealth of information to write good league rules. Just remember that any one rule by itself can be misinterpreted. It is best to read the flag rules, the overtaking rules and any codes of conduct before formulating an exact opinion on any given rule. Having said that, motor racing demands some flexibilty and consideration in context with each potential breach for set rules to work in the real world.

*remember that real world rules are written mainly for a few reasons, and making racing difficult isn't one of them.

Safety, Fairness, Affordabilty/Equability are the main influences.

Quote from Gunn :

Indeed you can defend, but FIA also says, don't swerve on a straight. Changing line is not the same as jumping in front of an overtaking car.

OK, not at any point in my post did I say swerve... there's a difference between wating til the last possible moment and swerving, and moving over to defend your line. I'd actually said "if I see a car pulling out to pass me I will move out to block the other car, and I generally move quite far to the right, but leaving the other car JUST enough room so he's not on the grass" So I am still leaving a cars width enough for the other driver to pass if he feels he can get through.

I am quiet aware of good sportmanship when racing and and will only move once to defend my position. If the other driver decides to change his passing move to going the other way once I've moved to defend I'll NEVER decide to move back on him because this is classed as zigzagging which is against FiA rules.

Thanks for everyones opinions on this, it seems we're all pretty divided on this, so I'll just continue driving the way I am, but not taking unnecesary risks that will ruin someones (and my own) race.

Without having read all the replies I would suggest that a it of fair play would go a long way. Yes you may be right but at what overall cost?

Anyway - glad to see a new guy and it was a good idea to ask for opinions

Quote from vanirl :

Without having read all the replies I would suggest that a it of fair play would go a long way. Yes you may be right but at what overall cost?

Anyway - glad to see a new guy and it was a good idea to ask for opinions

good point

I can't really contribute to this discussion. They pass me too quick for me to even THINK about defending. Then, as my opponents flash past, the air agitation also helps to send me into the railings/grass/sand.
I've noticed that I don't tend to get this overtaking problem on hotlaps though..... or should I say lukewarm laps....

Quote from Peteuplink :

OK, not at any point in my post did I say swerve... there's a difference between wating til the last possible moment and swerving, and moving over to defend your line. I'd actually said "if I see a car pulling out to pass me I will move out to block the other car, and I generally move quite far to the right, but leaving the other car JUST enough room so he's not on the grass" So I am still leaving a cars width enough for the other driver to pass if he feels he can get through.

Hence the term "swerve", it defines what is acceptable, or not. The rules are there to help and so am I. Even before fairness is considered, rapid changes of direction in most cases are dangerous and in many cases deemed unsportsman-like on the basis of safety alone, there are exceptions.

I've always thought of defending your position to be something where good judgement is when you only defend as hard as you would want someone else to be if you were passing them.
For instance I wouldn't want to have someone cut in front of me late so I wouldn't do it to them. I would however take a defensive line and squeeze them leaving a car's width of space, so I don't mind if someone does that to me

Of course I only have a limited amount of online time behind me but i've had good battles with people a second a lap faster as they try to pass me, and with people i'm a second a lap quicker than as i've tried to pass. I think i've always been pretty fair with people (only they will know of course)

i was in a race yesterday and i was out in front (i know, amazing isnt it) and i knew 2nd place was a much faster car than I was. it was a 5 lap race and i was on lap 3 and could see 2nd place in my mirror slowly gaining on me, i knew i would have to fight to stay in first place. I dont often defend my position, i will often just let a car by but as i was in first something took over my whole body and didnt want to let him by.

so i took all my corners slightly inside and tried to not leave any blatant gaps for him to get on the inside line, that is about as far as my "defense" goes, if he got up the inside of me that place was going to be his i werent going to give too much of a fight for it because it was obvious who was faster, i tried to defend it the best way i could and it obviously would fail at some time so why risk a crash that could take us both out.

in the end i went wide into a corner and lost my position anyway. i guess i had a bit of a defeatist attitude from the start.

I drive defensively almost always when I'm battling for position. For me that means moving to the inside line well before the braking zone, sometimes as early as possible, just so as to force my opponent to try passing from the outside. Some ppl leave space in the braking zone and try get through from the inside in corner exit, and I used to lose positions because of this. Now I stay on the inside line even at corner exit if this is the case, frequently my opponent will find the rear of my car where s/he would have passed me.

I don't weave (much) on the straights but there's one thing, if I've already taken the inside line well before the braking zone, while being say in the middle of the track, and my opponent is on the outside line but behind me; I find many people try to force moving to the inside line anyway when I'm clearly there. In this case I will protect my line by moving even more to the inside, perhaps it's blocking but I find that often when ppl dive to the inside when I'm already there they don't have time to brake enough and push me off..

Another tactic I use is that when I know I can brake & avoid, I stay as close to the car in front, making a fake passing attempt whenever possible in the hopes of the driver making a mistake while watching the mirrors.

Good race(crafting)!

I havn't read the whole thread (i'm at work), i'm just going to comment on the original question with real world regulations and leave it at that.

You are allowed to move once and then [optionally] return to the line, once you've moved once you are committed to either that line OR returning to the racing line and that's it, no secondary move in the same direction or moving a little and then a lot.

In terms of putting the squeeze on, if the car behind has significant overlap (which in a single seater means front wing in line with the drivers head - or thereabouts) then you are obliged to leave room for the other car, this means leaving the width of 1 car + an itsy bitsy margin. Contact in this situation would be your fault.

If the car does not have significant overlap then it's they job not to hit the person infront.

@pete:
about that blackwood incident:

i won't do the direction change _after_ the other driver pulls out to overtake you.

after a turn it's quiet easy to determine if the following driver gets slipstream. your move is imho very good driving as long as you pull it off early enough. you can bring yourself into the defending position quiet early. the other driver can decide to attack you on the left (which will be very difficult) or try to attack on the right (he's got to have some skills to pull that off though, most drivers have terrible problems braking from the right into a right hander).

when the other driver is on the left or right of you. you shouldn't do any of these moves.

some guys here seem to confuse hotlapping with "gentlemen"-driving, don't listen to them.

if the guy behind you is faster, first he has to get past you. don't let him! but stay fair and be aware what you are capable of. you don't want to cause havoc while pulling some risky maneuvers.


in the 2nd situation you explained, your move was plain unfair.