I had some good racing last night, I also had some "interesting" races. During the course of the night there where 4 drivers who logged on and didn't exactly compete so much as happen to be using the same track as those in the race.

However the "wrecking" may not have been (and most of the 4 cases probably wasnt) deliberate, however the standard of driving was below appalling.

One driver actually had difficulty accelerating in a strait line and crashed numerous times on each bend, he did this when alone too - and on watching 6 replies I dont think was deliberately wrecking.

Unfortunately I was on that old favorite combo, FOX+SO1, so needless to say every accident a driver had with one of the 4 crash-a-holics last night was exagerated to a multiple car race ruining pileup.

Eventually last night I nearly lost my cool, with a departing comment of "Have I offended you? Or are you just really that bad?" I decided it was time to log off before I got in an argument.

My feeling toward that particular combo is that if you cannot do a lap under 48 seconds or so you perhaps are not ready to race online - but the actions of the other drivers last night probably wasn't maliscious.

So what constitutes wrecking? I could archive up the replays and send them to the server admin and apply for a ban - but does such inability deserve a ban?

Does a complete lack of comprehension of online co-operation and fairplay combined with driving ineptitude equal intentional wrecking?

Most of me wants to welcome newcomers and help them into the game, but the other part of me wants to race online and be competetive and be able to race and compete with other drivers of my level - which on that particular combo i'm quite good (although still .5+ second off the pb's set by the Jedi Lords).

Unfortunately having such an abysmal driver on that combo immediately voids the race, finishing becomes a matter of pot luck - and your place in the top 3 is dependant upon whether you managed to avoid taking too much damage when you lapped the accident-prone driver on the 3-4 times during the 8 lap race that one has to pass them.

I was on CDUK servers last night, which do have a very good ban procedure which results in a perma-ban on numerous 24/7 servers ... However, I wouldn't like to perma-ban a driver of this kind. I do think they should not have been there - but a perma-ban seems harsh punishment.

Is there a solution to this dilema?

As it was no intentional wrecking (and I think the definition of intentional is pretty clear), they did/do not deserve a ban IMO.

If I were an admin there, I'd first give them a friendly advice to stay out of trouble (i.e. starting from the back of the field, etc) to learn the track instead of actively racing for position. If that doesn't work then I'd say they should practice the track offline until they can control the cars and get reasonable times or go to spectate. If they then don't leave the server by themselves or join spec, I'd kick them. But ban? No.

Also if they constantly caused big crashes a vote-kick should've easily gone through (after trying to solve the situation diplomatically, of course).

What about just trying to be nice and tell them to take it easy, or if he/she has done a mistake, tell him to pay attention to not do it again. Tell them that they should practise offline or at least tell them some basic rules. If they refuse to learn anything, I see no harm of kicking them out.

As by not learning they show no respect to feloow drivers. Just a little mistake in that chicane at SO1 always leads to a major pileup.

Of course a wrecker does the crashing on purpose, so a learning driver certainly doesn't fit to this "wrecker" group. But a learning driver can be very dangerous as well.

And some people are just out of this world

EDIT: pwnd

It's a matter of personal discretion on their part and consideration towards other racers and as such it's clearly a subjective matter. There is no true "solution"; if somene don't understand on their own that they're being a nuissance by not taking their practice sessions offline then there's not much to do without being "unfair" sadly. Most people that would heed a warning/advice about it would most likely figure it out on their own anyhow.

That's not to say all is lost - let them know but don't expect miracles on public servers.

I understand why you have got upset Becky, everyone hates their own race being ruined. However in this case as stated above a kick should be put in place.

Having said that maybe a 1 day ban would cure this problem however I could understand why certain people wouldn't like to put this in operation. What we should all try to do is help these drivers. When I was a very slow "noob" I got great help from many people including my friends at vMax and as a consequence had an inner drive to get better as I wanted to impress people. If I hadn't of got that help I doubt whether I'd still be playing and thats what we want...an increase in fast and consistent driver which many people will be if we give them time.

I never practice offline and have never done so. It's an online simulator so that's what I want to use. And although I am definitely not a great driver I'm reasonably quick to learn a decent control of a car on a circuit.

However, when I have a new track with a new car I always observe a couple of laps of preferably one of the leaders to see how they drive, what the circuit is like, where they brake and what speeds they take corners with.

When I think I have a clue I'll jump in a car and have a go, trying to stay away from anyone driving and keeping the CTRL+S close in my mind.

I'll still struggle sometimes and have caused an occasional crash, even last weekend on a circuit I know well, just not with that car (sorry Appie!!) because I was trying to get out of the way.

When a new race starts I'll just start driving with everybody else and will improve enough to not be terrible in 2-3 races.

I've had a lot of fun races just driving midfield with somebody driving about the same times as me, but well below WR's or the leaders pace. I have fun that way and do not have the skills or desire to win a lot or become an alien.

Yes I could train to improve off line first, but the little time I have to play LFS I want to play versus other people, because that for me is where the fun is in a game. The fact that I can say "Sorry, it is my fault" to someone is a lot more fun then grumbling about AI getting in my way. Maybe that is not quite what some of you want, but I do not care if I get hit once in a while, because another race will be 5 minutes away and nothing is lost really. That might be just a mentality difference which makes LFS so much more alive when online

Hiya Becky..
The permaban on the CCUK (now ukct.net) and allied servers is really only intended for genuinely malicious wreckers, such an example being f!shscales. I can imagine you'd feel hesitant about using the wrecker report form to report someone who's just plain crap at driving. It wouldn't be fair to invoke a process that witch-hunted newbies. Thank you for resisting the temptation!

I wish it were possible to split the kick and ban options, but for the moment we've only got the config option "vote=yes/no". We'd turn this option on gladly if we didn't know for a fact that genuinely good drivers would get votebanned right off the server for screwing up once. We did try it and that's what happens, most especially on SO1/FOX.

Just for the sake of clarification, you can use the wrecker report form to simply summon an Admin to the server. Just use the "Additional Info" area, and say something like "admin, get ya butts in South City now!" That information is sent to several ukct.net people including via SMS, and should get you an admin on-site within a couple of minutes. We'll join the server, find the "offender" and try to sort the problem without using harsh tactics.

If you submit an MPR on the form, it won't automatically result in a ban. I'd say roughly 30% of the MPRs that have been submitted so far have not resulted in bans at all. Not that NO result has occurred.. we go for the "educate first, legislate last" and will actively try to find and talk to the "accused", and explain the problem. That hasn't met with much success, I'll concede, but if they don't/won't hear the advice, they're naturally elevated to "ignorant pig" status, and long-term ignorance may turn into "won't see the inside of our servers in their lifetime" status eventually.

I think we probably give the impression that we're hard-ass with our servers, and when it's a driver with malice I think we are, but we run a Beginners server and rather than ban people who are just inexperienced, we'd be happy to coax them into that server instead.

Hope that all helps

EDIT: Cross posted with the 2 above.

One point to mention is that the CDUK servers dont allow vote kick/ban at all, they have a very good system for banning - but it falls short in this respect. With regards to the systems they have in place now its either perma-ban or not at all, they dont often have a live admin.

I very strongly agree with Chris Kerry's sentiment that it's far better to be inclusive of new drivers than intollerent of low ability, and indeed most new drivers seek to be accepted and drive in a co-operative way whilst they are learning.

Here's a killer point thing, in making this post I decided to check on the experience of one of last nights 'problematical' drivers using LFSWorld and found he has done 496 laps of SO1, his personal best is 1m04.15. With that much experience and that poorer time I dont think hand holding is going to help ! .

It also begins to change my view over whether what that driver in particular was doing was actually accidental.

EDIT2: Mistake on my part, the driver in question set a 1m04.15 alright, but he's much faster in a Fox ! LOL... I can be a newb too sometimes . He wasn't anywhere near his pb last night though.

Quote :

you can use the wrecker report form to simply summon an Admin to the server. Just use the "Additional Info" area, and say something like "admin, get ya butts in South City now!"

Thank you, this does indeed sound like a good solution. Now I can race my favorite non-league week combo with total confidence in the server & the team behind it.

Thanks.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Thank you, this does indeed sound like a good solution. Now I can race my favorite non-league week combo with total confidence in the server & the team behind it.

Thanks.

:eclipsee_ :headbang:
(God, I love these emoticons! LOL!)

Ironically, I actually did my 1,500th lap of SO1 last night...

I think Kev knew that!

Quote :

I think Kev knew that!

Damn, he wasn't kidding!? He really does have a 1500lap bot...

I was 'driving' with a mouse about a month ago and when I bought a wheel, I was aware of my disabilities and done some laps against AIs offline. I think people who are new to this whole thing should do the same. Speaking of this, the case when 15 cars crash after the lights go green pops into my mind...:dunce:
I think some kind of a reputation system should be introduced into LFS with the possibility to set a minimum reputation level for a server. We could have some real good racing then

A reputation system can and would be exploited by teams, this includes teams of poor drivers. It would become a game of not how good you are, but who you know. Otherwise a great idea .

Unless any "good" "indifferent" "bad" vote you made against someone was a single permanent flag for you to that person, so a team would only ever be worth 10 or so + points at most.

The other problem is if the reputation system did work is people who start the game later may not find any servers with other people to race on because the +rep drivers would all be on the restricted servers.

I think league racing is the best system. If you're no good, you don't make a league. Outside of league races, I think by and large you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Private servers are obviously a way of ensuring that only the known good drivers get to drive, but they're bad because they don't let in the good UNknown drivers. Fresh blood in LFS, like in language, is needed to keep relevence high.

There's probably no absolute solution.. except for experienced drivers to educate rather than eradicate, and for new drivers to learn before they burn.

Quote from AeoIus :

I never practice offline and have never done so. It's an online simulator so that's what I want to use. And although I am definitely not a great driver I'm reasonably quick to learn a decent control of a car on a circuit.

And there we have the crux of this particular problem. It is a dilema. But just because LFS is an online racing simulator, you can't just take one of the words and make it manditory without the others. If you take "online" as being manditory, then you must take "racing" as manditory. Wandering around the track running multiple seconds slower than everybody else, taking wrong turns, not able to control your car at all is NOT racing.

Unfortunately, there are people out there that simply don't care one way or another. They have trouble controlling the cars so they just bang around until they get board. This behaviour does ruin races for us, but they don't care. You can be nice to them, but again, they don't care because they are not paying attention. You just have to live with it or do most of your racing in leagues.

Quote from SamH :

There's probably no absolute solution.. except for experienced drivers to educate rather than eradicate, and for new drivers to learn before they burn.

And I thought that law by ryhme was for American crime.

Quote from starry :

And I thought that law by ryhme was for American crime.

I shame-facedly admit that I have been somewhat influenced by American local politics! I'm in the UK at the moment looking after my last remaining parent, but my HOME is between Chicago and Milwaukee

Join only with 107% or under of WR, or 110% or whatever. Something like that's been suggested numerous times, here and on RSC. There are a few arguments for, and of course there turn out to be a few of those who are against:
"We just can't shut away the noobs."
"Race in leagues if you want to have clean racing."
And other similiar blah blah blaaah.

In reality a noob whouldn't race a schumacher. Besided to all, they have to drive no slower than 107% of the fastest time to qualify for the race. They qualify with other racers on track, I know. This has already been practiced in leagues, so why not to have an option for public servers too?

It's a nasty combo is the fox and SO1( ina good way ), there's always a small group of newer drivers that just don't know how to drive it. I know because I was one of them up until quite recently. I wasn't driving poorly to the extent that I was in the way, but I wasn't competitive.

Then a guy called ash from ASR team I think, he just goes right outta the blue "Here mate try this set" then he specced me and talked me through a few laps of the circuit, then I specced him and he showed me where to gain time. I smashed my PB on that track and I've won a few of my last 10 races on the circuit and came second or third on the other races (and still fluffed a few of course ).

So, instead of banning peeps from servers we should try and help them raise their game. Invite them to sit in spec for a lap or 2 and let them try your set. I know a lot of people don't have time for anything other than a quick session and they want to get the most out of what little time they have on LFS and they don't need to be schooling noobs.

I see people making a lot of drift videos and other flashy vids but I havent seen any videos of people doing tutorials on car/track combos. It would be an excellent addition to the community if people started posting training videos in the beginner section that talked the viewer through a decent lap, not world record material, just a clean quick lap with advice on braking points and apex's and what gears to use at certain sections of the track, with a link to the setup used.

I'd do it myself but I'm still learning a noob so it would be like the blind leading the blind

Becky, I was (briefly) in the same server last night.
A couple of races after you left, i was halfway through a race, leading by about 5 or 6 sec's, doing low 42's, when some guy came barreling outta the pits and smacked right into me at the hairpin, trashing my car !, a cursory "sorry" came up in the message's and he just buggered off.

However, I've been around LFS long enough to realise you just can't reason with muppet's, either you get a long string of abusive language, they try to blame you, or, you become a target the next race. So i just smiled to myself and left them to it.

Unfortunately, the next server i went too, running SO1, was full of Martians,:zombie: all in their new shiny, white and red liveried motors, and i couldnt get within half a second of the slowest

So, i took my leave, and went and watched the Telly instead, sometimes, it just aint your night

It seems, we always have lots of these threads coming up when a new version/patch comes out and new drivers are attracted to LFS (or old drivers come back to LFS). And while most of the solutions ppl come up with sound very nice in theory, they are in fact usually not practical. At least that's how I see it. Reason imho being that it's not the slow and unexperienced causing problems, but the inconsiderate (no matter how fast they are). And there's probably no way you'll get an inconsiderate driver to spec a veteran for two or three laps. Gentle advice will also not get through to the inconsiderate idiot. So, I think we're pretty much stuck for as long as it lasts. The good news is that it usually doesn't last too long, as the inconsiderate will soon move on or convert to serious racers all by themselves.

On a more general note about wrecking: It's sometimes nearly impossible to seperate the unskillful noob from the intentional wrecker just by watching, because some of the more experienced wreckers just pretend they're noobs. They even say sorry, state they made a mistake, they say, "sorry, but I'm a noob" and all sorts of stuff like that. In those cases only longer "conversations" can reveal the wrecker, which is a little tiresome tbh.

Quote from Linsen :

On a more general note about wrecking: It's sometimes nearly impossible to seperate the unskillful noob from the intentional wrecker just by watching, because some of the more experienced wreckers just pretend they're noobs. They even say sorry, state they made a mistake, they say, "sorry, but I'm a noob" and all sorts of stuff like that. In those cases only longer "conversations" can reveal the wrecker, which is a little tiresome tbh.

Between the LFSWorld statistics (as Becky has pointed out) and the Multiplayer Replay, it's not honestly difficult to distinguish between someone who is intentionally wrecking and someone who is simply stupid. Arguably there's a point, full circle, where they're one and the same.

I would say that, whether stupid or deliberate, prolonged wrecking is a no-no. A driver who KNOWS he is ruining other peoples' races should, sensibly, bow out of trying to compete in a race, and be satisfied with watching and learning.. then when he's watched and learned, participate from the back.. then when he's getting better, his field position will climb. If he pays attention and learns from his mistakes, AND the mistakes of others, he'll be competitive in a reasonably short space of time.

If, however, he doesn't care (Reference: Hallen's last paragraph), and persistently exists as an idiot on a server, oblivious through either intent or disregard, he ultimately relegates himself to the "wrecker" podium.

GOOD intention + GRIM determination + COURTESY + PRACTICE are the fundamental ingredients, I think, that make up good racers. Drop any of those ingredients, and you have lost any chance of being regarded by the community in general as a good participant, no matter how quick or slow you are.

Having multiple private servers (by admins wanting to host good races) with a single password published here on the forum might be a solution because I think only a fraction of licensed racers visit the forum which also kind of filters serious racers from wreckers. Sensible people not reading the forum could get the password from fellow racers via instant messenger programs or something.

Might not be the best idea, but something needs to be done because I am losing faith towards the game and I think I am not alone