Hello fellow LFS forumers, I come here in peace and with a mission to provide you with a marvelous and exciting piece of entertainment, Bill Nye and Ken Ham's debate about...

"Is creation a viable mo ... rn, scientific era?"

I'm pretty sure you all (et al.) know of Bill Nye, The Science Guy, and I really hope not so many of you know of Mr. Ken Ham, but hey I'm not going to impose you a belief. These men will take you on a journey that will either make you laugh or make you cry, I did laugh a lot and it almost made me cry just by thinking that there are a lot of people like Mr. Ham.

I just want to make something clear, there wasn't a winner on that debate hence I don't want to see a fight for the win in this thread. Just watch the video, give it a think and if you have any personal thoughts just come here and write them, but please do not go bashing other people's beliefs.


Enjoy.

Hilarious!

Great to see, and who doesn't love Bill Nye. Let's see how far a serious discussion can go here before we all get banned for offending some group.

Buddhist point of view.

While I, in part, feel that the creationist view is somewhat limited in depth, they do in fact have a valid point.

Science cannot explain clearly either why we exist, what the 'soul' is, what the (limited by language) universe ( yes, there are many) is, or in fact, weither or not reincarnation actually exists.
If you want to look at proof, I.E. Coincidence, statements, strange $&!?, whatever, there is more evidence supporting reincarnation than there is disproving it. So, I'm going out on a limb, and here's a Buddhist point of view.

Life is an illusion, look at quantum physics, read Feynman, what we really don't understand is a major part of what is called 'reality'.

What is reality?, it is only perceived by your senses. It is purely personal, and is perceived by every sentient being individually.

There may be a group consential reality, but, is that actually 'real', or not ?

So, if the only reality is what you perceive with your limited resources, is that reality ?

As an example, look at VR, read sci fi, is a virtual reality a reality to the virtual beings in it ?

Read Iain Banks, seriously, read all his sci fi.

Science can only explain what we know, it builds a false layer of confidence giving us the impression we know more than we do, it cannot explain what we don't know, haven't learned yet.

Anyway, end rant.

TL;DR, there's lots of strange $&@! out there, who knows?

But, Bill Nye is awesome............

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Great to see, and who doesn't love Bill Nye. Let's see how far a serious discussion can go here before we all get banned for offending some group.

Buddhist point of view.

While I, in part, feel that the creationist view is somewhat limited in depth, they do in fact have a valid point.

Science cannot explain clearly either why we exist, what the 'soul' is, what the (limited by language) universe ( yes, there are many) is, or in fact, weither or not reincarnation actually exists.
If you want to look at proof, I.E. Coincidence, statements, strange $&!?, whatever, there is more evidence supporting reincarnation than there is disproving it. So, I'm going out on a limb, and here's a Buddhist point of view.

Life is an illusion, look at quantum physics, read Feynman, what we really don't understand is a major part of what is called 'reality'.

What is reality?, it is only perceived by your senses. It is purely personal, and is perceived by every sentient being individually.

There may be a group consential reality, but, is that actually 'real', or not ?

So, if the only reality is what you perceive with your limited resources, is that reality ?

As an example, look at VR, read sci fi, is a virtual reality a reality to the virtual beings in it ?

Read Iain Banks, seriously, read all his sci fi.

Science can only explain what we know, it builds a false layer of confidence giving us the impression we know more than we do, it cannot explain what we don't know, haven't learned yet.

Anyway, end rant.

TL;DR, there's lots of strange $&@! out there, who knows?

But, Bill Nye is awesome............

in Genesis, the story of Cain and Abel... Know that one? Well Cain was jealous of his brother's sacrifice to God so he kills Abel. He runs off to the Land of Nod. When you look at Adam and Eve's kids and know they got spouses, they never say from where. I'm thinking from Nod.
Now just going out on a limb - A sci-fi silicon based tree...
Could the people of Nod be the result of Divergent evolution and Adam and EVE were super specimens?
LOL in Genesis, it also describes evolution, in a way. It describes how different animals came from other animals. Sound familiar? Of course the Biblical order doesn't really jibe with what we know so far about evolution, but the fact that they describe life developing like that instead of just magically appearing makes you wonder about things.

My Grandfather was a Baptists preacher. I had all that religious crap rammed down my throat as a kid. After Baptizing my cousin, I asked when I could have that happen (8 year olds are pretty scared of going to hell) He told me that I would NEVER appreciate the concept of salvation. Great thing to tell an 8 year old - huh? That day, I became an atheist. LOL I went through the motions of being "saved" in a quaker church - just to piss his ass off. Quakers don't dunk people. And they also wonder why you have to dunk your head under the water when all over the new Testament it tells you NOT to do crap like that to prove your faith....

Here in the States, there are displays of the 10 commandments. A bunch of overzealous atheists find that as an offense to their religion so they're trying to put up some public shrine worshiping atheism. There's even a group of devil worshipers that are trying to get a monument to Satan in Oklahoma.
The Agnostics were going to put up a display too, only they couldn't decide what it would look like.

Quote :

"What would change your mind?"
Ken: "No one is ever going to convince me that the word of God is untrue."
That, my friends, is the opposite of what makes someone a scientist.

Quote :

Why are they putting up a video of the debate?
We can't even prove that this debate happened. You see, this debate happened in the past. You can't prove anything from the past using evidence gathered from the present.
This is the folly of historical science. Just because videos in the present are records of events that happened in front of a camera, does not mean that has always been the case. How do we know that the laws of physics from 10 minutes ago didn't allow for the spontaneous generation of Bill Nye and Ken Ham debate videos? We can't prove it one way or the other using observational science. So why assume that the event in the video actually happened?

Couple fantastic comments from Reddit.

Quote from Racer Y :

Here in the States, there are displays of the 10 commandments. A bunch of overzealous atheists find that as an offense to their religion so they're trying to put up some public shrine worshiping atheism. There's even a group of devil worshipers that are trying to get a monument to Satan in Oklahoma.
The Agnostics were going to put up a display too, only they couldn't decide what it would look like.

u wot m8? Displays of the 10 commandments on public property in the USA are illegal if no other (religious) displays are allowed - as it would be breaking the first amendment. Oklahoma allowed the 10 commandments to go up, so naturally either they have to allowed all other religions to have a display or they will be subject to a lawsuit to have the christian monument removed.

Quote from Racer Y :

. A bunch of overzealous atheists find that as an offense to their religion

Since when have atheists had a religion?

Atheism is a single position on a single point. Nothing more. Atheists don't have a religion. Atheism isn't a religion.

Ham's argument in a nutshell

Quote from Ingolf :

Hilarious!

I read your original post, it was okay you shouldn't have deleted it.

Quote from Matrixi :

Couple fantastic comments from Reddit.

Thanks for sharing haha! My cousin watched the debate with me and we agreed somehow with the second comment you posted. We think that since the time it took the Earth to be "old" is in the past, we don't know for sure if the seconds were longer! Much longer! So that instead of 4.5 billion years you may think for sure that the Earth is 6000 years old.

Quote from The Moose :

Since when have atheists had a religion?

Atheism is a single position on a single point. Nothing more. Atheists don't have a religion. Atheism isn't a religion.

I'm an atheist and in no way think that atheism is a religion, I think is the other way around.

Quote from Blas89 :

I'm an atheist and in no way think that atheism is a religion, I think is the other way around.

Precisely my point...

I sense this thread is going to go well.

Quote from Blas89 :

I read your original post, it was okay you shouldn't have deleted it.

It may come back, when needed.

Quote from Blas89 :

I just want to make something clear, there wasn't a winner on that debate

When christiantoday.com have a poll and 92% say Nye won the debate, and incredibly Pat Robertson, of all people, says Ken Ham should shut up, then i think you'll find there WAS a winner on that debate.


http://www.christiantoday.com/ ... here.start.time/35688.htm

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/201 ... make-a-joke-of-ourselves/

Ham might as well have just opened a copy of The Old Testament and positioned it on the rostrum and then sat in his seat for 2 hours because although he may have wished to appear as though he was going to offer evidence and well reasoned debate, ultimately it was "the book says so and that's all I need". He won't trust proven scientific methods to answer questions about the earth's history but a horrendous violent and depraved book written by who knows who or for what purpose (nobody was there to witness it) is irrefutable.

Nye handled it all quite well, of course.

Quote from The Moose :

When christiantoday.com have a poll and 92% say Nye won the debate, and incredibly Pat Robertson, of all people, says Ken Ham should shut up, then i think you'll find there WAS a winner on that debate.


http://www.christiantoday.com/ ... here.start.time/35688.htm

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/201 ... make-a-joke-of-ourselves/

I was just trying to avoid fights...

Quote from The Moose :

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/201 ... make-a-joke-of-ourselves/

yeah shame on ken ham... making a fool out of christians is pat robertsons job
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson

Well, I must say that Ham has a few valid points. The first is that in a system that is not to be biased towards a religion the science books of many United State's public schools are in fact somewhat slanted. This is a good argument. I must admit this.

As an atheist I cannot see a 6,000 year old Earth being anywhere near reality, and I absolutely cannot see myself believing in creation theory.

On the other hand these people should be entitled to their opinion, and our children should be left to decide what they believe on their own. I don't think schools try to deny children of that right, but I do think that scientific knowledge and understanding reveals the truth to a majority of people.

Reincarnation and other such theories of an "after-life" I also cannot believe, but I don't see scientific understanding and knowledge hindering such viewpoints in any real way. (First hand experience here with an Agnostic Girlfriend of 3 years).

Thanks for posting this It was enjoyable.

Quote from The Moose :

Since when have atheists had a religion?

Atheism is a single position on a single point. Nothing more. Atheists don't have a religion. Atheism isn't a religion.

You do realize that is the statement the most fanatical of that "non-religion" uses, don't you?

I swear.. I've ran into Atheists every bit as out there as a religious fundamentalist. And yeah, they are VERY RELIGIOUS about their beliefs or lack thereof and are just as intolerant as any two Bible thumpers I can think of.

And who cares anyways? The discussion was supposed to be about the debate between Bill Nye and the creationist nut-case.

Well, the nut case had home field advantage, but I imagine while one debater was "preaching to the choir", the other was pretty much babbling to a brick wall.

Quote from Cornys :

Thanks for posting this It was enjoyable.

My pleasure!

Quote from Racer Y :

Well, the nut case had home field advantage, but I imagine while one debater was "preaching to the choir", the other was pretty much babbling to a brick wall.

This made me giggle.

Quote from Cornys :

Well, I must say that Ham has a few valid points. The first is that in a system that is not to be biased towards a religion the science books of many United State's public schools are in fact somewhat slanted. This is a good argument. I must admit this.

As an atheist I cannot see a 6,000 year old Earth being anywhere near reality, and I absolutely cannot see myself believing in creation theory.

On the other hand these people should be entitled to their opinion, and our children should be left to decide what they believe on their own. I don't think schools try to deny children of that right, but I do think that scientific knowledge and understanding reveals the truth to a majority of people.

Reincarnation and other such theories of an "after-life" I also cannot believe, but I don't see scientific understanding and knowledge hindering such viewpoints in any real way. (First hand experience here with an Agnostic Girlfriend of 3 years).

Thanks for posting this It was enjoyable.

"As an atheist I cannot see a 6,000 year old Earth being anywhere near reality, and I absolutely cannot see myself believing in creation theory."

Just outta curiosity... Do you believe in UFOs?
It amazes me that so many atheists believe in intelligent life on other planets, based on nothing more than assumptions (1 billion planets - we can't be the only one...) and faith. Yeah Faith. All them scientists on TV saying there are can't be wrong - Right?
Cough Phrenology Cough.

LOL Some folks have as much blind faith in science as others have in the clergy.
I was on another forum a while back discussing the money game in the Scientific research racket. Most people were outright shocked that I could even suggest such a thing. To them, scientists could do no wrong. The scientific method. The nature of research. The... I dunno the whiteness of the lab coats. This was their defense against my heresy. I guess it was locked in their brain that these guys are just beyond reproach and the judgments of simple men. Sound familiar?

And NO. I'm not picking on you or trolling you about your beliefs.
I'm just pointing out a few things I've noticed about atheists over the years.
Not all atheists mind you, mainly the ones that denounce Christians as hypocrites to the point of redundancy.

Here's another weird question. Say we were more advanced than what we are now. We were so advanced that we could finally determine once and for all the existence of God. And we found out God really did exist.
Would we bow down and rejoice to the Almighty? Or would we figure out a way to destroy him?

Only 6,000 years? I thought they said 40,000? Maybe they scaled back to cut costs? Creationists... ROFL I wonder how many are still convinced the Earth is flat?

As far as the whole God thing goes. I don't, from an atheist point of view, I can't really discount that idea completely. We evolved from sea sludge. We now have 3d printers and stem cells to play with. And it seems there's been some sort of micro organisms found on Mars. No telling where that came from, but most likely it originated on Mars. With all that, who's to say there isn't some omnipresent being that evolved from some primal sort of communal intelligence and balances the universe the same way we balance our breathing rate?
ROFL Let's start a new religion: Germs for Jesus©!

Eh... Religion is a subject best discussed with beer.

I know this was aimed at Cornys but let me jump in the conversation.

Quote from Racer Y :

Just outta curiosity... Do you believe in UFOs?
It amazes me that so many atheists believe in intelligent life on other planets, based on nothing more than assumptions (1 billion planets - we can't be the only one...) and faith. Yeah Faith. All them scientists on TV saying there are can't be wrong - Right?
Cough Phrenology Cough.

Well, I'm an atheist and I *hope* (you cannot believe for sure that something is "out there" if you haven't seen it or measured it) that there is intelligent life somewhere in the universe. These are assumptions, yeah, but I cannot picture a universe so big without anyone else but us, I just can't. It just would be a waste of matter (and dark matter/energy as well!).

LOL Some folks have as much blind faith in science as others have in the clergy.

If having faith in science is comparable to having faith in a God, well I'm a crazy faithful guy.

Here's another weird question. Say we were more advanced than what we are now. We were so advanced that we could finally determine once and for all the existence of God. And we found out God really did exist.
Would we bow down and rejoice to the Almighty? Or would we figure out a way to destroy him?

Wouldn't that be something?

As far as the whole God thing goes. I don't, from an atheist point of view, I can't really discount that idea completely. We evolved from sea sludge. We now have 3d printers and stem cells to play with. And it seems there's been some sort of micro organisms found on Mars. No telling where that came from, but most likely it originated on Mars. With all that, who's to say there isn't some omnipresent being that evolved from some primal sort of communal intelligence and balances the universe the same way we balance our breathing rate?
ROFL Let's start a new religion: Germs for Jesus©!

And that goes back to the question "How did everything started?" Who put the matter for the big bang to happen? And then, redundancy all over again... It's like watching Prometheus.

Quote from Blas89 :

I know this was aimed at Cornys but let me jump in the conversation.

Thanks for jumping in
Actually I wasn't really "aiming" for Coryn. I was just trying to use his post to make a point about some things I've noticed about Atheism. Or to be more precise, a big chunk of the people that.....practice(?) it.
A lot of Atheists tend to think they are the intellectual superior of the blue haired church lady when in many cases they are just as ignorant and backwards. The reason for their "Lack of faith" is every bit as shallow as the church ladies' reasons for having it.
I think South Park did an episode that pointed this out.

I have a real hard time believing in intelligent life on other planets and I base that on my understanding of evolution.
As a species, we lucked out. So far... There are way too many variables, too many things that can go totally wrong with a planet in the time frame it takes to go from single cell to sentient.
And yeah, you can point out the numerous planets that are out there that can support life - and probably does. But intelligent life? I think that's a little too much to hope for at this time.

And Prometheus.... Was it just me? Or was that movie boring?

I used to think I was an atheist. I'm not. I'm a skeptic. I don't believe in anything.

Quote from Racer Y :

I don't believe in anything.

If you don't believe there is a God, isn't that the same as believing there isn't a God? Can you really "Not believe" in God and "not believe" also in the absence of a God?

I put it to you that someone who doesn't believe there is no Santa Clause is expecting the clip clop of some reindeer on their roof every Christmas eve.

Quote from sinbad :

If you don't believe there is a God, isn't that the same as believing there isn't a God? Can you really "Not believe" in God and "not believe" also in the absence of a God?

I put it to you that someone who doesn't believe there is no Santa Clause is expecting the clip clop of some reindeer on their roof every Christmas eve.

I dunno. Never really thought about it like that.

"Can you really "Not believe" in God and "not believe" also in the absence of a God?"
Sure. Why not? I been telling God he don't exist for decades now.