wow, a fellow mous'er... ...driving "auto"???
First and formost, I salute you for your effort you put in coming this far.
If by now you cannot improve any further in lap-times running the fbm, here's my top-tip: take another car.
XRG and XFG are open to demo-users, so take either and feel the difference.
Although I now own a G25 since about a year or so I still quite often just use mouse when going for a quick spin in the road-cars myself. If you have set up your controls the right way that is...
...fully-linear steering, gas brake
...no "helping hands" of any sort
then you can go a long way using a mouse except in a F08 or BF1 for that matter, they are just un-raceable using mouse because of their insane power-to-weight figures
...another thing that you should check is the sharpness-settings of the textures in the graphics/display options. I just recently explored that the long-kept defaults can be signifficantly improved allowing for much better visuals of bumps, road-surface and curbs.
If going for a wheel, please consider one of the newer 2nd-generation Logitech Driving Force GT's if your budget isn't on par with a G25. They are marketed for Playstation-3 but work just fine with a PC. Check out a short review at insidesimracing http://insidesimracing.blip.tv ... vingForceGTWheelReview593
Having a higher usable steering lock is of GREAT advantage over a cheap'n'cheefull Momo-Racing (the still available black one). Especially when it comes to any road-car or GTR. I am talking out of experience since I had one of those myself.
Keep in mind though, that -in the old days- the pedals of the cheaper Logitechs tend to wear out after a year's worth of intense use or so. People say that newer revisions should have improved substantially - but tbh: I'd still have an unsound feeling about them.
The G25's weak point on the other hand is the h-shifter. I already hat my entire set replaced because of this little accessory going bust for no comprehensible reason whatsoever (and I do not throw my kit against the wall, never!).
One other thing I might suggest is: get some fresh air before getting frustrated. Plus: Go and dig up some 32 british pounds in order to aquire an S2 license. Sounds as if you might enjoy one.
Cheers
DrBen
If by now you cannot improve any further in lap-times running the fbm, here's my top-tip: take another car.
XRG and XFG are open to demo-users, so take either and feel the difference.
Although I now own a G25 since about a year or so I still quite often just use mouse when going for a quick spin in the road-cars myself. If you have set up your controls the right way that is...
...fully-linear steering, gas brake
...no "helping hands" of any sort
then you can go a long way using a mouse except in a F08 or BF1 for that matter, they are just un-raceable using mouse because of their insane power-to-weight figures
...another thing that you should check is the sharpness-settings of the textures in the graphics/display options. I just recently explored that the long-kept defaults can be signifficantly improved allowing for much better visuals of bumps, road-surface and curbs.
If going for a wheel, please consider one of the newer 2nd-generation Logitech Driving Force GT's if your budget isn't on par with a G25. They are marketed for Playstation-3 but work just fine with a PC. Check out a short review at insidesimracing http://insidesimracing.blip.tv ... vingForceGTWheelReview593
Having a higher usable steering lock is of GREAT advantage over a cheap'n'cheefull Momo-Racing (the still available black one). Especially when it comes to any road-car or GTR. I am talking out of experience since I had one of those myself.
Keep in mind though, that -in the old days- the pedals of the cheaper Logitechs tend to wear out after a year's worth of intense use or so. People say that newer revisions should have improved substantially - but tbh: I'd still have an unsound feeling about them.
The G25's weak point on the other hand is the h-shifter. I already hat my entire set replaced because of this little accessory going bust for no comprehensible reason whatsoever (and I do not throw my kit against the wall, never!).
One other thing I might suggest is: get some fresh air before getting frustrated. Plus: Go and dig up some 32 british pounds in order to aquire an S2 license. Sounds as if you might enjoy one.
Cheers
DrBen
concerning the less-experienced drivers who are keen to know more...
wasn't aware of that, at all - I didn't even bother to watch that 3rd incarnation of utter nonsense :schwitz
even though back in the day I liked the original TFATF because of that gorgeous mid-90's green Supra / then hated it for it gave EA inspiration for games like underground thus obliterating the great NFS-legacy ---- Initial-D is way more entertaining, anyway 
)Not to offend your believes, which I assume are technically 100% correct; Are you sure this fully applies to lfs, as well? Think about the number of cars with road-tires combined with rough-surface tracks
To my understanding of the matter, people tend to "try harder" in lfs than most of them would go in real life racing, i.e.: They push their driving to extreme even in a racing situation in narrow and unforgiving s-bends like the chicane in South City. Only some footage I have seen on youtube with a Lotus-pilot on a rather well-known street-track comes remotely close to what I see & experience on lfs public servers every day.
Well granted, no professional would allow him/herself to go "out of control" no matter what. They would rather end their race than to risk a good portion of their essential moving parts on their car and/or body.
However, given the situation we - as Sim-drivers - are in, we don't pay for hospital or broken cars&tracks when we drive lfs. The track shines in perfect condition every time start over and the number of race-ready car replacements doesn't cost us a single dime.
So YES, THAT PART OF THE SIM IS GAME-LIKE -- whether we like it or not. So that's why inevitably, fresh and unexperienced drivers will tend to run wild on the virtual track when being introduced to the advanced physics of lfs.
The only way to come around this problem is to try and behave like a real racer. And that's why I'd like to encourage the newer racers to find out themselves what car control is all about.
I already explained above to some degree, that I see drifting as one of many driving techniques rather than a style. If you don't know how to master a slide - or in other terms: a moment of instability with skidding involved - you will very likely fail in keeping the control of your vehicle, thus rendering clean racing impossible.
I might add one more vital Ingredient to the recipe of how-to become a cleaner racer through drift-practice:
4 times of simple straight-forward newbie-advise::
1.
If you want to experience drifting you are encouraged to do so, e.g. offline or on a designated drift-server. BUT as long as you really want to race seriously in lfs DO NOT USE SPECIALLY DESIGNED DRIFT-SETUPS to start with. Most of them are unsuited for any form of real racing! If you start off with this kind of thing you will just satisfy rapid progress by becoming a "false-learner".
2.
If you want to learn about the boundaries of your car's dynamics then go with a moderately neutral all-round setup / i.e. one with agile handling designed to run long-distance on twisty, bumpy and narrow road tracks (like Fern Bay green) combined with normal street-like gear-ratios. The provided "Race-S"-sets provided in the original package generally come very close to that.
3.
You can always push the length of your drifts by changing to Offroad-tires all around and filling them up with air (hint: especially demo-users will find the XRG will get immensely more skid-capable with that). Fresh starters might also try this and frequently change from road-tires to dirt-track-tires (using the same setup) - again meant as to not learn the wrong "feel".
4.
After playing around on your own, searching on youtube for something like "drift bible" might be a good idea. It's just that for total driving-novices all the hints and talk in those vids are likely to sound pretty much alike the last one if you do not exactly know what the "wise guys" are referring to in detail.
Last edited by DrBen, .
I see your point there and -I have to admit this - it makes perfect sense looking at it this way. So it is a deliberate decision then, to simply leave the vote-mechanism in-place, as is originally provided by lfs itself.
Well then I will try and just accept it, too. Since going fast on a lone track is not to be called racing at all.
Shame on me for always wanting to improve the unimprovable:hippy:
Maybe an eventually to be introduced second "pro" - server (in the case of JnB) could provide the distinction between speed-ramming for the masses and a cleaner, more competition-focused bumper-racing culture. Maybe in a year or two, there will be enough of a demand for such a thing to happen. Until then I will strive to enjoy most of my time with you guys without letting the sad moments get to me too much.
On a side-note: the reason I grew so fond of JnB is that this server took over the spirit of competitive road-car racing from the former STCC-public servers that originally formed the first stage of the CTRA-system. Since the introduction of the slicks-equipped vehicles for the more advanced pilots the focus on tin-top racing has somehow vanished quite a bit, looking at the increasingly empty TBO-class server.
But hey, I'm not saying "all the good stuff lies in the past", either.
Have fun going fast
DrBen
Last edited by DrBen, .
Thanks for your explanation.
Is it really impossible to disable the voting feature alltogether when racing? If so then please pardon my questioning. It's just that I do not really get the point of a voting feature when operating a server on the basis of heavy rotation to begin with.
Thank you again for all you hard work
Cheers
DrBen
Is it really impossible to disable the voting feature alltogether when racing? If so then please pardon my questioning. It's just that I do not really get the point of a voting feature when operating a server on the basis of heavy rotation to begin with.
Thank you again for all you hard work
Cheers
DrBen
"VOTE END" - Problem -- resurrecting the talk
Hi
after searching for "vote end" I've got to this thread.
and this is the reason why I bother:
Why does the X-system allow racers to majority-vote an END OF RACE ?
To my understanding, it's redicuous that ppl have that kind of control over the server since only ppl with their car on the track can vote.
And that excludes everyone that has temporarily pitted for setup-work e.g. right after crossing the finnish-line. This is annoying: you come to a new/not-frequently-raced combo and start to get used to it - after 1-2 races you decide that maybe you should try another setup or tweak the gear-ratios (a job that takes about 10-20 seconds), so you chose to pit, as like as 5 to 10 other ppl. Then, while you're at it, the left 3-4 on-track players, completely out of the blue, decide to end the race rendering the other players' work in the pits rather useless.
The second reason why I seriously dislike the end-vote is that this way only the known and/or popular tracks will be in favour of a race. Especially on JnB-layouts. But Rally-X tracks greatly suffer this fate as well on the normal Race-servers.
I think that way it is quite easy for the calculated ( 51+ % ) of a grid to pretty much ruin the time of day for the other ( 49 - % ).
I for one would much rather see an end to the ability of shift-X votes on at least the JnB server.
Oh, by the way, a big thank you for those new layouts on there. They have really brought a not-so-slight change to it - and I rather like the new combos. Especially the new LX4 combo is rather epic! Didn't have this much fun since a long time on JnB.
However - although a lot of ppl in the grid liked it on that run yesterday - voices kept appearing that demanded - once again - rb4. It really used to go like this: "what, no rb4? ; boring! ; Vote Shift-X, everyone!" And this time, too, only 2 races short of the proclaimed track-time they succeeded in shift-X'ing yet again.
Please - if at all possible - do something about it. Shift-X is getting more and more annoying. I don't even care if you shorten the individual track-time of the running combo but please let there be at least a chance of having some variety when racing on JnB.
You know what's boring? Coming onto a server regularly like 4 'o clock PM and always facing the exact same combo as yesterday.
That's like some really bad north-German radio stations that will tell you time and again they would have "the best out of 3-4 decades (blablabla...) and in reality don't care about music, anymore and just want to blend in into everybodies mood of the day so that they can bring you yet another commercial brake.
And of course shift-X. It cannot get more annoying than that!
Thanks for your time
&
Greets
[D-R-T] DrBen
after searching for "vote end" I've got to this thread.
and this is the reason why I bother:
Why does the X-system allow racers to majority-vote an END OF RACE ?
To my understanding, it's redicuous that ppl have that kind of control over the server since only ppl with their car on the track can vote.
And that excludes everyone that has temporarily pitted for setup-work e.g. right after crossing the finnish-line. This is annoying: you come to a new/not-frequently-raced combo and start to get used to it - after 1-2 races you decide that maybe you should try another setup or tweak the gear-ratios (a job that takes about 10-20 seconds), so you chose to pit, as like as 5 to 10 other ppl. Then, while you're at it, the left 3-4 on-track players, completely out of the blue, decide to end the race rendering the other players' work in the pits rather useless.
The second reason why I seriously dislike the end-vote is that this way only the known and/or popular tracks will be in favour of a race. Especially on JnB-layouts. But Rally-X tracks greatly suffer this fate as well on the normal Race-servers.
I think that way it is quite easy for the calculated ( 51+ % ) of a grid to pretty much ruin the time of day for the other ( 49 - % ).
I for one would much rather see an end to the ability of shift-X votes on at least the JnB server.
Oh, by the way, a big thank you for those new layouts on there. They have really brought a not-so-slight change to it - and I rather like the new combos. Especially the new LX4 combo is rather epic! Didn't have this much fun since a long time on JnB.
However - although a lot of ppl in the grid liked it on that run yesterday - voices kept appearing that demanded - once again - rb4. It really used to go like this: "what, no rb4? ; boring! ; Vote Shift-X, everyone!" And this time, too, only 2 races short of the proclaimed track-time they succeeded in shift-X'ing yet again.
Please - if at all possible - do something about it. Shift-X is getting more and more annoying. I don't even care if you shorten the individual track-time of the running combo but please let there be at least a chance of having some variety when racing on JnB.
You know what's boring? Coming onto a server regularly like 4 'o clock PM and always facing the exact same combo as yesterday.
That's like some really bad north-German radio stations that will tell you time and again they would have "the best out of 3-4 decades (blablabla...) and in reality don't care about music, anymore and just want to blend in into everybodies mood of the day so that they can bring you yet another commercial brake.
And of course shift-X. It cannot get more annoying than that!
Thanks for your time
&
Greets
[D-R-T] DrBen
I'll second that!
I had the advantage of watching/reading Initial-D after making it into LFS for a rather substantial amount of time (S2-racing since 2006). And I also kind of remember this phrase that came up in the anime/manga.
I have to say that this english translation sounds a a little "weird" to me - but then again, I'm no native speaker, neither of English nor Japanese. Just talking about the terminology here.
My conclusion is that I use "drifts" as a tool in racing. I don't see it as a 'driving-style' as long as it's not meant to be for show. To me it's a rather plain description of either the back axxis (2-wheel-) or both (4-wheel - drift) losing their lateral traction.
E.g. on some tracks you will prefer an understeery setup for your car to gain faster laptimes when your surroundings are clear. But facing close competition on some corners will make you unable to react to unforeseeable shortage of line-choices as smoothly as if going with a better-handling setup.
You can see it on CTRA-1 all the time: ppl that are unable to control their vehicle when some "obstacle" (e.g. _me_) blocks their racing line.
Most of them just crash into it not knowing what to do or how to cope with a sudden and never-before-experienced range of vehicle dynamics. Specially when different types of cars are involved like XRG vs XFG. It's because they all start as "grip"-drivers so-to-speak (again: don't really like that term) and practise their lap times, go right to the edge of what's physically possible but never bother to go beyond - cause that'd inevitably slow them down.
So yeah: sometimes a drift-technique comes in quite handy. Mostly in races you start drifting without really knowing it. That's probably the kind of thing that happens first to novice-drivers. After managing such, one will eventually start to anticipate losage of traction on specific corners. Later - much later - one will begin to understand ones own vehicle's dynamics and that's when the path is clear to gain the ability to "read" the opponents' cars' movements, as well.
That said I would like to add that practicing car control - even drifting for that matter - is huge fun!.
So yes, knowing how to drift really means knowing how to race better. But keep an eye on the traffic & your tires, will you?
Greets
DrBen
does it make sense?
I think you're right in saying "do we want one?"
Main reason is: such a differential will make you faster - granted. BUT - a big but - it will distance the driver somewhat from the feel and his/her dedication on the vehicle physics.
AND it will distance an experienced/skilled setup artist even further from the rest of the pack. So do we really want it? I guess it depends on what the individual driver wants and what the majority is going to favor.
I for one would like play with such a thing, for sure.
But outright competition would sure be a hitting a somewhat impact if going for a change. In what direction the specific results are going to turn out is to be seen.
My guess is that especially on STD and TBO-Class the disadvantage in applyable grip on the rear wheel drive cars might be able to be solved by an active diff. If so this would make me happy in bringing fwd and rwd-cars to a closer match, again.
Cheers
DrBen
Main reason is: such a differential will make you faster - granted. BUT - a big but - it will distance the driver somewhat from the feel and his/her dedication on the vehicle physics.
AND it will distance an experienced/skilled setup artist even further from the rest of the pack. So do we really want it? I guess it depends on what the individual driver wants and what the majority is going to favor.
I for one would like play with such a thing, for sure.
But outright competition would sure be a hitting a somewhat impact if going for a change. In what direction the specific results are going to turn out is to be seen.
My guess is that especially on STD and TBO-Class the disadvantage in applyable grip on the rear wheel drive cars might be able to be solved by an active diff. If so this would make me happy in bringing fwd and rwd-cars to a closer match, again.
Cheers
DrBen
about proper racing & road cars / tbo-class
YES, there are proper races with clean and sound racers to be found in S2.
No, not nessecarily at all times on CTRA anymore, I'm afraid.
I think it's got something to do with the points-measurement & reward-scale and, of course, with the jumped-up popularity this X-systen has seen in the last couple of months.
I started racing on there when still named "STCC" ...public something. And it was a huge difference to what you see "nowadays".
Reason? I see it as this:
when solely run with touring cars (i.e. near-stock-standard cars with road-tires) and the prospect of eventually qualify for that STCC racing-league - which unfortunately didn't live long enough to take off and lead the way to a strong following outside the reach of S2 - license holders, this was the best way to have fun in the standard-cars provided in lfs. There were virtually no servers on permanently running STD and TBO class anymore. Worse still, the beautiful lrf-class cars didn't seem to drag any attention to them outside the drift scene.
->Everybody was power-hungry, going straight to the GTR-class of cars and messing around mostly on the beginner-friendly and comparatively short-and-wide high-speed tracks such as Aston National
(as3). My team used to host such a server when S2 came out. Until encountering some tech-related problems that one was like bursting from within - with near 20+ racers being constantly on in the evenings. Yes, we are a fun-team and not into any form of professional server-hosting. Thus we had a few wreckers and -when one of us was on- so we gave out warnings and kicks time and again - making a fun environment for clean racing possible. And the overall popularity of that specific track grew by a huge margin - with new servers appearing out of nowhere.
THAT you see is the problem today:
As soon as with the x-system those new CTRA-servers got introduced and the licensing system was enlarged to the higher car classes, everyone and everything started to go rank-crazy. Thus relieving the CTRA-2 with it's TBO-class cars of the majority of its racers -> they are competing with the higher-ranked on CTRA3, now.
That's because there they get to race all the already-proven-to-be-fast competitors and -hopefully- some cleaner racing than on the newbie-grade CTRA-1. AND only on the higer servers they can effectively collect points to move up in the ranks, since holding e.g. a platinum license means _significant_ shortage of the received points when scoring some good positions racing in a beginner-grade car.
And there you have it: As soon as the license allows one will strive for getting points even faster -> thus moving to a higher car-class and joining most-likely the Racing-3 - given the almost-empty state of the tbo-class server.
Interestingly, some higher-ranked CTRA-users seem to join even the Racing1 for some pedal-to-the-metal fun here and there - so am I. I't simply because racing the road-cars is fun. And it's most fun with a large number of competitors. Only there is one catch: The Racing1 is beginner-grade. And today this doesn't mean you can expect clean racing all the time. Not even half the time, to be honest 'cause minor mistakes happen much too frequent and mostly all over the place on that one. Then there is the misconception of a lot of new ones how to behave plus the somewhat "nosy" atmosphere when things get chaotic...
...resulting in me leaving that place after a couple of sprints.
That said, the races sometimes are and still CAN BE MUCH FUN. It's simply a matter of WHEN to join a server and meeting the right people.
PLUS - simple but true:
most casual racers - who make up a large proportion of the CTRA "heavy-users" - just go by the 'not-empty' filter in the built-in server list. And there most of the time the Racing2 just doesn't sho up, due to a lack of racers. I have been joining it and started a race a few days back and it took about half an hour until some of the "lost sheep" that appeared on there (and some of them leaving straight-away again) settled for some good racing action. But, yeah, that takes some dedication and some time to come by.
Happy Racing
Heiko aka [D-R-T] Dr.Ben
PS.: shame the CTRA ditched the lrf server.
And here another tip: sometimes when not over-loaded with ppl the Jump'n'bump can be fun, too. Just try to stay out of it when the "cracks" go for time-attacs in the middle of the race. To be honest: that can confuse an acutal race as much as some newbies crashing on the first 2 corners
No, not nessecarily at all times on CTRA anymore, I'm afraid.
I think it's got something to do with the points-measurement & reward-scale and, of course, with the jumped-up popularity this X-systen has seen in the last couple of months.
I started racing on there when still named "STCC" ...public something. And it was a huge difference to what you see "nowadays".
Reason? I see it as this:
when solely run with touring cars (i.e. near-stock-standard cars with road-tires) and the prospect of eventually qualify for that STCC racing-league - which unfortunately didn't live long enough to take off and lead the way to a strong following outside the reach of S2 - license holders, this was the best way to have fun in the standard-cars provided in lfs. There were virtually no servers on permanently running STD and TBO class anymore. Worse still, the beautiful lrf-class cars didn't seem to drag any attention to them outside the drift scene.
->Everybody was power-hungry, going straight to the GTR-class of cars and messing around mostly on the beginner-friendly and comparatively short-and-wide high-speed tracks such as Aston National
(as3). My team used to host such a server when S2 came out. Until encountering some tech-related problems that one was like bursting from within - with near 20+ racers being constantly on in the evenings. Yes, we are a fun-team and not into any form of professional server-hosting. Thus we had a few wreckers and -when one of us was on- so we gave out warnings and kicks time and again - making a fun environment for clean racing possible. And the overall popularity of that specific track grew by a huge margin - with new servers appearing out of nowhere.
THAT you see is the problem today:
As soon as with the x-system those new CTRA-servers got introduced and the licensing system was enlarged to the higher car classes, everyone and everything started to go rank-crazy. Thus relieving the CTRA-2 with it's TBO-class cars of the majority of its racers -> they are competing with the higher-ranked on CTRA3, now.
That's because there they get to race all the already-proven-to-be-fast competitors and -hopefully- some cleaner racing than on the newbie-grade CTRA-1. AND only on the higer servers they can effectively collect points to move up in the ranks, since holding e.g. a platinum license means _significant_ shortage of the received points when scoring some good positions racing in a beginner-grade car.
And there you have it: As soon as the license allows one will strive for getting points even faster -> thus moving to a higher car-class and joining most-likely the Racing-3 - given the almost-empty state of the tbo-class server.
Interestingly, some higher-ranked CTRA-users seem to join even the Racing1 for some pedal-to-the-metal fun here and there - so am I. I't simply because racing the road-cars is fun. And it's most fun with a large number of competitors. Only there is one catch: The Racing1 is beginner-grade. And today this doesn't mean you can expect clean racing all the time. Not even half the time, to be honest 'cause minor mistakes happen much too frequent and mostly all over the place on that one. Then there is the misconception of a lot of new ones how to behave plus the somewhat "nosy" atmosphere when things get chaotic...
...resulting in me leaving that place after a couple of sprints.
That said, the races sometimes are and still CAN BE MUCH FUN. It's simply a matter of WHEN to join a server and meeting the right people.
PLUS - simple but true:
most casual racers - who make up a large proportion of the CTRA "heavy-users" - just go by the 'not-empty' filter in the built-in server list. And there most of the time the Racing2 just doesn't sho up, due to a lack of racers. I have been joining it and started a race a few days back and it took about half an hour until some of the "lost sheep" that appeared on there (and some of them leaving straight-away again) settled for some good racing action. But, yeah, that takes some dedication and some time to come by.
Happy Racing
Heiko aka [D-R-T] Dr.Ben
PS.: shame the CTRA ditched the lrf server.
And here another tip: sometimes when not over-loaded with ppl the Jump'n'bump can be fun, too. Just try to stay out of it when the "cracks" go for time-attacs in the middle of the race. To be honest: that can confuse an acutal race as much as some newbies crashing on the first 2 corners
Thx for you reply Gekkibi
Yeah but that would quite simply switch the odds of the lfs experience around, now being a pain for any drifter or cruiser. I would prefer making it easier thus more accessible for all the popular types of racing.
The drifters would - given the situation that almost approximately 70% of the servers with road-car combos are in fact labelled as drift-servers - not gain as much for the time-being, of course. But in the long run I think they, too, will have a better experience as well, since they can then chose their preferred form of racing in exactly the same manor as anyone else.
Given the fact that the most popular types of racing atm are:
{proper track-racing; drifting; cruising; drag-racing; rally-X;} I would systematically introduce those categories as server-tags + a tag for "other" to offer a seperate tag all the other types of racing that I didn't think of in that list. Jump & bump racing for example can be distinguished by looking at the offered track which shows up in the server list what-so-ever. Drifting can only be "seen" when looking at the server-name - but sadly not always are server-names including that much information.
That's why I think offering a tag for the most-common forms of motor-racing would enhance the acceptance of my suggested distinguation of race-types. Of course this leaves the choice in the hands of the user to filter the list of servers to his liking or, for example, go without any filters, at all.
Again, my main theme is to safe the occasional racer and the power user a lot of unnessecary time picking out a suitable server, when going for "a quick race".
Greets
[D-R-T] DrBen
server filters...
I am one of those that aren't as active in the moment, so sorry if I state something that has already been discussed previously:
it's about the filters for the multiplayer server list: I am a huge fan of that "curising" filter that was introduced recently and now here is my thought on that:
why not make another filter for seperating drifters from racers??
it would be a huge improvement for those who - like me - feel the need for a ride in lfs from time to time but are interested in the less popular cars for racing. For me, I'm more interested in having fun in cars with road-going tyres. But when I find myself in deselecting cruise and restricting to the non-single-seater and non-slick-tyres-vehicles then there almost only appear to be drift-servers set up for those cars. And that means I'm having a hard time to filter out the relevant servers that are open to real racing with my very own eyes an my right hand on my mouse.
I think the possibility for ruling all those drift-servers out of sight would hugely benefit all people out there that want to go "street-racing" but DO NOT WANT TO END UP ON A DRIFT SERVER. For example nearly 95% of the servers that do feature the LX-class are drift-servers. Finding one server in that list that isn't and has people playing can be a real pain - and I think it even might discourage many racers to try and search for such combinations later on, as well.
Yes, of courser there is always the one to three ctra-servers nowadays where such racing does actually exist. But I do not always want to compete with other licensees - i.e. to worry about my license status. Sometimes I just prefer on fooling around in a real race that doesn't harm my status on ctra and/or that allows for some completely different car-track-configurations than those offered on that special server at the given time.
Maybe it is even a good idea to offer filter-tags for closed-league racing, public servers or team-servers within the filter-system in multiplayer-menu, so there will be less of a question about "should I join here or is it probably about some serious league I didn't here or read about previously?".
Well as stated above: seperating real racers from drifters - and thereby allowing for a more straight-on lfs-online experience is my main concern for now.
Just my 2 cent.
Thank you for you time
[D-R-T] DrBen
it's about the filters for the multiplayer server list: I am a huge fan of that "curising" filter that was introduced recently and now here is my thought on that:
why not make another filter for seperating drifters from racers??
it would be a huge improvement for those who - like me - feel the need for a ride in lfs from time to time but are interested in the less popular cars for racing. For me, I'm more interested in having fun in cars with road-going tyres. But when I find myself in deselecting cruise and restricting to the non-single-seater and non-slick-tyres-vehicles then there almost only appear to be drift-servers set up for those cars. And that means I'm having a hard time to filter out the relevant servers that are open to real racing with my very own eyes an my right hand on my mouse.
I think the possibility for ruling all those drift-servers out of sight would hugely benefit all people out there that want to go "street-racing" but DO NOT WANT TO END UP ON A DRIFT SERVER. For example nearly 95% of the servers that do feature the LX-class are drift-servers. Finding one server in that list that isn't and has people playing can be a real pain - and I think it even might discourage many racers to try and search for such combinations later on, as well.
Yes, of courser there is always the one to three ctra-servers nowadays where such racing does actually exist. But I do not always want to compete with other licensees - i.e. to worry about my license status. Sometimes I just prefer on fooling around in a real race that doesn't harm my status on ctra and/or that allows for some completely different car-track-configurations than those offered on that special server at the given time.
Maybe it is even a good idea to offer filter-tags for closed-league racing, public servers or team-servers within the filter-system in multiplayer-menu, so there will be less of a question about "should I join here or is it probably about some serious league I didn't here or read about previously?".
Well as stated above: seperating real racers from drifters - and thereby allowing for a more straight-on lfs-online experience is my main concern for now.
Just my 2 cent.
Thank you for you time
[D-R-T] DrBen
my experience so far is with 3 of the lot...
my wheels started of with a TM Enzo (with force-feedback) when it was relatively fresh on the market.
It had a good feel to it in the sense of its effects and its overall design but it fell short in the sense of build quality / finish. And let's not forget it only has about 260° of rotation so it's more of a wheel for arcade-style racing games than for the real stuff like LFS. In my case the right shifter lever broke into 2 parts one day because of a design problem: there was a very, very strong spring to hold it back. The force needed to initiate a shift was simply "too much" for the thin layer of plastic that this lever was made of.
Pedals were: "cheap but good" plastic with sufficient resistance and long-enough travel and had an overall nice feel to them.
Logitech MOMO black
Next in line was the black and relatively low-price "momo racing force" that you can still buy:
The wheel itself: very nice finish. It is rubber-coated but at the main grip-zone it does have some "airy" surface-rubber which keeps the sweat from beeing "stored" too much. I liked the thickness of it. The shift-levers were much less demanding in force than the Enzo I had before and had more of an "instant response" - like action (very short travel to trigger), were much larger and even had a more ergonomic location behind the wheel. Feedback was very detailed, but when steering against the simulated force the ff-motor provided way too much resistance to overcome - because of it's long gearing. And with time it developed a little play.
It's most drastic let-down was the pedals: there is no real bearing for the pedals themselves which means: if you take the lid off, you've had it. Take this seriously! If you happen to buy one of those and it's still revision 1 then get in contact with logitech right away since they will wear out quite quickly!. The problem is that their design was a huge mistake since the springs are unevenly balanced on eihter side of each pedal (they use multiple springs with different force and different initial position of attack, especially on the brake). A Rev. 2 - pedal set is reported to solve this issue and logitech is told to provide rev.2 pedal sets to almost every customer who contacts them about this issue.
THE DPF USES ROUGHLY THE SAME SET OF PEDALS - so be warned!
G25
In Spite of those bad experiences with the momo's pedal set I went on an got a G25. It's been a real gift, this thing. First of all there is the rotation of 900° lock-to-lock. This means almost all types of racing cars can be properly simulated - steering angle-wise.
I could not believe how much realism it added to my lfs-driving experience. The resistance when going against the force is way, way less than with the cheaper stuff, thanks to 2 independent motors and much more direct gearing.
Then there are the pedals with excelent feel to them and a suitable amount of travel and even some progressive (and much higher) resistance to the brake. And: a real bearing for all of them. Haven't had an issue with those for about a year, now. Wheel and pedals still working like a charm - That being said: I didn't use the rig that heavily - just like once or twice a week for some 1-3 hours.
And now the let-down: the shifter-unit! As you can read in this forum every now and then, there is one of those to go wrong within half a year or a tad more time. Mine broke after like 1 year not giving me 2nd and 4th but 6th gear right away - and i confirmed this to be hardware-related by plugging it in on two seperate systems. Seems to be the wiring and/or soldering inside this unit to not meed the standard of the rest of this rig's quality.
Thus right now I'm back to mouse-steer with my G25 currently in RMA. But mind you, I'm no slow-mo with mouse, either.
Final advice: If it's realism that you're after much more than anything else: go either for the DFP or the G25...
...or maybe that "Porsche"-wheel licensed by fanatec would be an even better choice (didn't ever hold that one in my hands). If it's cheap and cheerful gaming without let-downs, maybe that RGT by TM is an equally good choice - not supplying realistic rotation, though. And you can most-likely find the DFP for under 100€ somewhere.
I personally would go for the DFP if money's the issue and maybe swap the pedals for some reasonably priced after-market ones, when time comes. IF you do so make sure the stock pedals are Rev. 2 !!!
If you can afford it go for either the G25 or the 911-wheel.
The momo racing force is not bad either. But I guess the TM-RGT would be the better choice if the finish has improved to that enzo I had.
PS.: Rally and/or GT-cars might have that extra clutch-pedal to override the electro-hydraulic system when equipped with a sequential speed-box, simply for smooth pull aways at start and *parking* practice. WRC and other Rally cars do have to be road-legal AFAIR, simply to make their way between the stages through normal, open traffic. And I think smooth starts are really usefull on some "overpowered" GTRs.
Hope this is useful to you guys
Cheers
DrBen
It had a good feel to it in the sense of its effects and its overall design but it fell short in the sense of build quality / finish. And let's not forget it only has about 260° of rotation so it's more of a wheel for arcade-style racing games than for the real stuff like LFS. In my case the right shifter lever broke into 2 parts one day because of a design problem: there was a very, very strong spring to hold it back. The force needed to initiate a shift was simply "too much" for the thin layer of plastic that this lever was made of.
Pedals were: "cheap but good" plastic with sufficient resistance and long-enough travel and had an overall nice feel to them.
Logitech MOMO black
Next in line was the black and relatively low-price "momo racing force" that you can still buy:
The wheel itself: very nice finish. It is rubber-coated but at the main grip-zone it does have some "airy" surface-rubber which keeps the sweat from beeing "stored" too much. I liked the thickness of it. The shift-levers were much less demanding in force than the Enzo I had before and had more of an "instant response" - like action (very short travel to trigger), were much larger and even had a more ergonomic location behind the wheel. Feedback was very detailed, but when steering against the simulated force the ff-motor provided way too much resistance to overcome - because of it's long gearing. And with time it developed a little play.
It's most drastic let-down was the pedals: there is no real bearing for the pedals themselves which means: if you take the lid off, you've had it. Take this seriously! If you happen to buy one of those and it's still revision 1 then get in contact with logitech right away since they will wear out quite quickly!. The problem is that their design was a huge mistake since the springs are unevenly balanced on eihter side of each pedal (they use multiple springs with different force and different initial position of attack, especially on the brake). A Rev. 2 - pedal set is reported to solve this issue and logitech is told to provide rev.2 pedal sets to almost every customer who contacts them about this issue.
THE DPF USES ROUGHLY THE SAME SET OF PEDALS - so be warned!
G25
In Spite of those bad experiences with the momo's pedal set I went on an got a G25. It's been a real gift, this thing. First of all there is the rotation of 900° lock-to-lock. This means almost all types of racing cars can be properly simulated - steering angle-wise.
I could not believe how much realism it added to my lfs-driving experience. The resistance when going against the force is way, way less than with the cheaper stuff, thanks to 2 independent motors and much more direct gearing.
Then there are the pedals with excelent feel to them and a suitable amount of travel and even some progressive (and much higher) resistance to the brake. And: a real bearing for all of them. Haven't had an issue with those for about a year, now. Wheel and pedals still working like a charm - That being said: I didn't use the rig that heavily - just like once or twice a week for some 1-3 hours.
And now the let-down: the shifter-unit! As you can read in this forum every now and then, there is one of those to go wrong within half a year or a tad more time. Mine broke after like 1 year not giving me 2nd and 4th but 6th gear right away - and i confirmed this to be hardware-related by plugging it in on two seperate systems. Seems to be the wiring and/or soldering inside this unit to not meed the standard of the rest of this rig's quality.
Thus right now I'm back to mouse-steer with my G25 currently in RMA. But mind you, I'm no slow-mo with mouse, either.
Final advice: If it's realism that you're after much more than anything else: go either for the DFP or the G25...
...or maybe that "Porsche"-wheel licensed by fanatec would be an even better choice (didn't ever hold that one in my hands). If it's cheap and cheerful gaming without let-downs, maybe that RGT by TM is an equally good choice - not supplying realistic rotation, though. And you can most-likely find the DFP for under 100€ somewhere.
I personally would go for the DFP if money's the issue and maybe swap the pedals for some reasonably priced after-market ones, when time comes. IF you do so make sure the stock pedals are Rev. 2 !!!
If you can afford it go for either the G25 or the 911-wheel.
The momo racing force is not bad either. But I guess the TM-RGT would be the better choice if the finish has improved to that enzo I had.
PS.: Rally and/or GT-cars might have that extra clutch-pedal to override the electro-hydraulic system when equipped with a sequential speed-box, simply for smooth pull aways at start and *parking* practice. WRC and other Rally cars do have to be road-legal AFAIR, simply to make their way between the stages through normal, open traffic. And I think smooth starts are really usefull on some "overpowered" GTRs.
Hope this is useful to you guys
Cheers
DrBen
Last edited by DrBen, .
digital speedo in cockpit-view - i always used it...
...'cause i use a (nowadays comparatively low-res) 19" 5/4 1280x1024pix screen and a nice bit of viewing angle in IN-CAR-VIEW with cockpit on and no aditional hid of any of the main gages.
digital speedo thus helped me a lot to "test the rest", made it possible for me to memorise the speed i crashed at in the difficult corners. Remembering speed was my way of discovering the limit at braking-points, turn-ins, full-throttle points (out of the corner).
Or like "how fast can i run through that chicane just not crashing it? Things where the digital speedo come in quite handy, especially if you play around with gear ratios a lot, when doing/tweaking your own setups(...)
BUT:: This is about the only complaint I have out of the blue without even having tested the new testpatch (which I am just about to do, now). Seriously: everything else will prove exactly right, since it allows good drivers to be on top again without having to fear the unexperienced and "give me all that'll make me faster" fraction on the track.
So let's try her out...
See you on track
digital speedo thus helped me a lot to "test the rest", made it possible for me to memorise the speed i crashed at in the difficult corners. Remembering speed was my way of discovering the limit at braking-points, turn-ins, full-throttle points (out of the corner).
Or like "how fast can i run through that chicane just not crashing it? Things where the digital speedo come in quite handy, especially if you play around with gear ratios a lot, when doing/tweaking your own setups(...)
BUT:: This is about the only complaint I have out of the blue without even having tested the new testpatch (which I am just about to do, now). Seriously: everything else will prove exactly right, since it allows good drivers to be on top again without having to fear the unexperienced and "give me all that'll make me faster" fraction on the track.
So let's try her out...
See you on track
Sorry, I forgot that in most other country there do apply different and most of all much less restrictive regulations on how to get a drivers permit. So part of my answer above should be taken as from a "German" point of view, really - obtaining a license here requires at least some time and quite some money
I have that game myself and my impression is that apart from the sensation of a wrong start (i.e. stalling) there is almost nothing in this "game" that really adds up to teach somebody basic driving skills. It's quite an enjoyable game though, if you're a true petrolhead, so no offense
. Most likely you will find that overall the "physics" are not accurate at all in the game, regardless of the "ultra-realistic" mode you can switch to if you made to a certain 'experience level.' As for the traffic simulation: the other AI-cars brake like they hit a wall - i.e. there's no smoothness at all - and won't indicate their motions that far in advance like i am used to on the road. Well they even change back and forth from one lane to another without any given need for that. Another thing vital to high-speed motorway survival: overtaking on the outward lane shouldn't be allowed - in Germany overtaking on the right is 1. an offense 2. a cause that automatically gives the guy who did it full responsibility for whatever this maneuver may result in e.g. a crash (even if the faster guy is not personally involved in any crushed metal on his own). Actually the AI does not seem to follow any other rules than stopping at red lights. But that's probably a biased notice because the game is supposed to regenerate a somewhat American environment.
for that. I guess that applies to almost all modern sims: at _very_ low speeds you can somewhat get a "feel" for the dimensions of a car and also, but vaguely, how much room you'll need to pull up from a certain speed.The Pro's for lfs I think lie mostly in another sector: You can experience on-the-edge behavior of a car that doesn't come with anti-lock-brakes, let alone electronic stability management. And you can encounter loss of grip when traveling over the grass which might give the unexperienced a small preview of what winter conditions might feel like.
I think I personally learned quite a deal on what to do and what not to do in a real driver's seat. LFS however helped me in experiencing those things, that nobody in his right mind would try on a real road.
Of course lfs cannot be seen as a substitute for real driving experience.
Greets
Last edited by DrBen, .
lfs is for racing, don't mix the two purposes
...
i.e. there are so-called "driving simulators" that focus on giving you the illusion of going in actual traffic. But those tend not to focus on giving you the experience of a realistic (ally working) suspension, use of steering, clutch & shift control, etc.
Those are aimed mostly at people getting to know their limits on the "real road" prior to taking any driving lessons - or maybe as addition to that.
[(I've "played" a demo of one of those out of simple curiosity and have in fact a mixed opinion about this. It might help some sort people who are afraid of driving in the first place. On the other hand, it might as well disturb their self-esteem even further since as i stated above the "car" in those simulations doesn't react the same way as a real one and it can be quite tricky to learn how to direct that virtual "thingy" through the obstacles displayed on the screen - which might require, again, some experience in using a computer, esp. knowing the keyboard. )]
That is for numerous reasons:
One - it would take a pretty awesome (and therefor exaggeratingly expensive) effort to combine the complex field of racing simulation with an even more complex simulation of a real world road system
with ALL of its different moving-about entities and in general its all-connecting environment.
TWO - Driving schools don't want to teach you how to conquer the edge of things but to make you a responsible and safely acting driver.
Actually, the nearest you will get to border-line driving is if you take part in a drivers' safety training - unless you chose to go to a trackday, that is. (i have yet done neither of this in real life - And just like Millions of other people I didn't yet kill anyone after about 200000km of real world driving)
So there you are: You obviously did purchase a S2-license, which will now enable you to enjoy the virtual equivalent of race-driving -- and will teach you quite some stuff about car-controll in the process, I'm sure. But as for the clutch: the point of friction is at a slightly different spot of pedal-travel in each car, shouldn't be off the first third of travel-room afair from my driving lessons. Also the pedal-resistance does vary in every car. But -say- unless you realy pump up the revs (and make a fool of yourself doing so): When you miss this specific point and thus let go of the clutch too early -- you'll most likely stall your engine in the process. The usual cars you use to go from a to b won't have the power to let the wheels spin at low revs, at least on a clean and dry road.
O.K. now being late fall that can, of course, be a little bit different sometimes. But in general you shouldn't expect to learn ALL that there is in driving through practise in lfs. As far as real-world driving skills go, i think lfs is just the wrong way to go.
In lfs you always try to max out your grip, your speed and your tyre wear. You don't actually care for overall wear on your car since the imaginary box-crew does that for you and won't require any payment. Fuel consumption is as important as to simply make it across the finish line without "being helped" elsewhere. You always get a brand-new overall car, engine and tyres at the start of every race.
Actually, if money is a concern for you as much as it is for me you'll not come anywhere near the limits of your car in most normal situations and conditions. On the other hand, if you insist of going bonkers, please tell us in advance, where that is going to be. I will then leave that specific part of the road clear of my travels that day
Oh, by the way: Stick-shifting is not that hard to learn or to remember. Even for a guy like me who is stuck with a (not really that bad) automatic 4-speed for most of the time ('94 W124, 2.2l, 1.6t saloon)
Have fun.
& drive safely.
_______________________________
In lfs I am a happy little racer.
In RL I am happy to go places by car.
i.e. there are so-called "driving simulators" that focus on giving you the illusion of going in actual traffic. But those tend not to focus on giving you the experience of a realistic (ally working) suspension, use of steering, clutch & shift control, etc.
Those are aimed mostly at people getting to know their limits on the "real road" prior to taking any driving lessons - or maybe as addition to that.
[(I've "played" a demo of one of those out of simple curiosity and have in fact a mixed opinion about this. It might help some sort people who are afraid of driving in the first place. On the other hand, it might as well disturb their self-esteem even further since as i stated above the "car" in those simulations doesn't react the same way as a real one and it can be quite tricky to learn how to direct that virtual "thingy" through the obstacles displayed on the screen - which might require, again, some experience in using a computer, esp. knowing the keyboard. )]
That is for numerous reasons:
One - it would take a pretty awesome (and therefor exaggeratingly expensive) effort to combine the complex field of racing simulation with an even more complex simulation of a real world road system
with ALL of its different moving-about entities and in general its all-connecting environment.
TWO - Driving schools don't want to teach you how to conquer the edge of things but to make you a responsible and safely acting driver.
Actually, the nearest you will get to border-line driving is if you take part in a drivers' safety training - unless you chose to go to a trackday, that is. (i have yet done neither of this in real life - And just like Millions of other people I didn't yet kill anyone after about 200000km of real world driving)
So there you are: You obviously did purchase a S2-license, which will now enable you to enjoy the virtual equivalent of race-driving -- and will teach you quite some stuff about car-controll in the process, I'm sure. But as for the clutch: the point of friction is at a slightly different spot of pedal-travel in each car, shouldn't be off the first third of travel-room afair from my driving lessons. Also the pedal-resistance does vary in every car. But -say- unless you realy pump up the revs (and make a fool of yourself doing so): When you miss this specific point and thus let go of the clutch too early -- you'll most likely stall your engine in the process. The usual cars you use to go from a to b won't have the power to let the wheels spin at low revs, at least on a clean and dry road.
O.K. now being late fall that can, of course, be a little bit different sometimes. But in general you shouldn't expect to learn ALL that there is in driving through practise in lfs. As far as real-world driving skills go, i think lfs is just the wrong way to go.
In lfs you always try to max out your grip, your speed and your tyre wear. You don't actually care for overall wear on your car since the imaginary box-crew does that for you and won't require any payment. Fuel consumption is as important as to simply make it across the finish line without "being helped" elsewhere. You always get a brand-new overall car, engine and tyres at the start of every race.
Actually, if money is a concern for you as much as it is for me you'll not come anywhere near the limits of your car in most normal situations and conditions. On the other hand, if you insist of going bonkers, please tell us in advance, where that is going to be. I will then leave that specific part of the road clear of my travels that day
Oh, by the way: Stick-shifting is not that hard to learn or to remember. Even for a guy like me who is stuck with a (not really that bad) automatic 4-speed for most of the time ('94 W124, 2.2l, 1.6t saloon)
Have fun.
& drive safely.
_______________________________
In lfs I am a happy little racer.
In RL I am happy to go places by car.
Last edited by DrBen, .
i play mouse a lot myself...
...but that sure is no comparison to having a proper wheel + pedal setup!
Get yourself a reletavely inexpensive logitech "driving force PRO" - and you're in control of the car rather than judging your next action by the reaction you determine after you can see you the ting on your screen drifting away.
To put it plain and simple:
Yes -
it is possible to drive the bf1 with mouse steer and a well-chosen traction control setting.
NO -
it is NOT possible to race it that way. Even anything less powerful than a GTR is really hard to actually RACE with mouse, speaking from experience - You will have to aquire more than some skill to do so AND you will almost always think - "Why didn't I save for some proper wheel(...)"
If you are really interested in sim-driving
, trust me on this, forget about any joystick and get yourself a proper wheel: either dfp or g25 would be the choice for you if you aren't a millionaire.
Get yourself a reletavely inexpensive logitech "driving force PRO" - and you're in control of the car rather than judging your next action by the reaction you determine after you can see you the ting on your screen drifting away.
To put it plain and simple:
Yes -
it is possible to drive the bf1 with mouse steer and a well-chosen traction control setting.
NO -
it is NOT possible to race it that way. Even anything less powerful than a GTR is really hard to actually RACE with mouse, speaking from experience - You will have to aquire more than some skill to do so AND you will almost always think - "Why didn't I save for some proper wheel(...)"
If you are really interested in sim-driving
, trust me on this, forget about any joystick and get yourself a proper wheel: either dfp or g25 would be the choice for you if you aren't a millionaire.
That would be wonderful to have one or two additional track environments featuring narrow, twisty and bumpy real-world tarmac.
Another thing that buggs me is, that all the current
track environments in lfs are more or less very plain and repetetive. Maybe that is just me thinking like this because lfs is merely the only "game" i continously play all the time.
Fact is: i am desperate for some more tracks, much more than after new cars!!
Especially some more touring car circuits would really add up to the sim. For me the only track environment worth racing with standard road cars is fern bay. All other tracks, even the beloved blackwood are far too wide for my liking and lack in variety of flavour concerning their corners.
What makes blackwood more interesting again after a long time owning my S2-license
is that there is actually one corner that doesn't bend down to it's inner side.
I think we need more touring car competition -like tracks, or at least one where is no more space available than for 2 cars and thus giving back the joy when racing the smaller cars.
Well then, enough for now - or i'll glue on to my keyboard even more(...)
Greets [D-R-T] DrBen
For what i can tell about the black, plastic momo ("momo racing force") you really should do the following:
(with plugged in & powered on wheel) go to controll-panel --> select gaming gear --> momo racing --> properties
and now make sure that only the top slider (stating "ffb-strength" afair) has a value different than ZERO, all others should be turned down to 0, so that those (optional) special effects don't interfere with what the game is generating in ffb-output):fence3d:
you really should do that. IMHO rbr and flsLFS are -still- the only serious PC-simulations so far. :bowdown: Shame that S2 still yet neither has that kind of rallying stages nor the kind of perfect {1200kg/280bhp+50/50 weight ratio + fully adjustable 4wd-differential} WRC-car that would allow us to compare the two a little better.
Last but not least, an important hint will be to get started with the shipped (since patch-level S) "Race S"-Setups for the cars. they're not the fastest or even competitive but their handling is way more like racing than the built-in "street" or "rally-cross" options --and a good point to start and derive your own sets from.
Greets
[D-R-T]DrBen
Edit:sorry for the typo
Last edited by DrBen, .
i cannot make up my mind ybout this
firstly because i have used a mouse in demo-racing (since alpha 0.2). At the time of the S2-Demo release i joined a team, got hooked up even more by the great gameplay and, since about a year, i use one of those easy-to-brake black momos.
I still think thati am more capable of steering more precise by using the mouse than i will ever be able when using the wheel. Undoubtadly though, the wheel is much more fun and has the advantage of way more precise pedal-input in the sence of acceleration and braking.
An other issue is that current FF is, AFAIK, implemented into the direct-input part of Microsoft's DirectX-Toolkit. And thus the wheel you put into your usb-connector won't be much of a difference concerning the LAG some of you seem to experience.
The other thing is that when using the wheel (i drive with in-game around 60-65% ffb, with no added spring-stuff in the driver whatsoever, just the regular ffb set to 100%) and going a straight line fast with the roadcars (e.g. the straight on as-nat-rev) i notice that the overall control in steering is put off somewhat by the fact that the ff-motor inside the wheel doesn't match the input-resolution and thus making me and the car "shiver" a little. When using mouse it "feels" much more like the real thing since the input rsolution is pretty good and won't be affected by any ffb-related drawbacks.
However i haven't tried another wheel, at least if i don't count the short episode of using my now-broken thrustmaster enzo( the one i started wheel-driving with) that didn't last for more than 2 months or so. Funny thing is, i think that i remember using the enzo-wheel was much less noisy ffb-wise. Ok, the steering-input was less precise on that wheel BUT less affected by the ffb-motor since it didn't provide such a stiff amount self-inducted friction.
Overall i think that, no matter how good the wheel is, the ffb is most likely never to be just right in the sense of LAG. But i for one didn't experience any real LAG up to now. If there is something like this that one thinks to "feel" i think it has another background.
I really hope that the G25(with two ffb-motors) in October will at least reduce the friction of the wheel when turning. And i hope that thus the precision felt when driving will be upped compared to the black momo. And please, no cluttering with ffb-effects in the driver. I want REALISM, not sensationalism.
After all, driving a real car around at about 200km/h doesn't give me a noisy steering feel, neither should a racing simulation do. If it did, i probably wouldn't go that fast, anyway since i love living a little longer
.
I still think thati am more capable of steering more precise by using the mouse than i will ever be able when using the wheel. Undoubtadly though, the wheel is much more fun and has the advantage of way more precise pedal-input in the sence of acceleration and braking.
An other issue is that current FF is, AFAIK, implemented into the direct-input part of Microsoft's DirectX-Toolkit. And thus the wheel you put into your usb-connector won't be much of a difference concerning the LAG some of you seem to experience.
The other thing is that when using the wheel (i drive with in-game around 60-65% ffb, with no added spring-stuff in the driver whatsoever, just the regular ffb set to 100%) and going a straight line fast with the roadcars (e.g. the straight on as-nat-rev) i notice that the overall control in steering is put off somewhat by the fact that the ff-motor inside the wheel doesn't match the input-resolution and thus making me and the car "shiver" a little. When using mouse it "feels" much more like the real thing since the input rsolution is pretty good and won't be affected by any ffb-related drawbacks.
However i haven't tried another wheel, at least if i don't count the short episode of using my now-broken thrustmaster enzo( the one i started wheel-driving with) that didn't last for more than 2 months or so. Funny thing is, i think that i remember using the enzo-wheel was much less noisy ffb-wise. Ok, the steering-input was less precise on that wheel BUT less affected by the ffb-motor since it didn't provide such a stiff amount self-inducted friction.
Overall i think that, no matter how good the wheel is, the ffb is most likely never to be just right in the sense of LAG. But i for one didn't experience any real LAG up to now. If there is something like this that one thinks to "feel" i think it has another background.
I really hope that the G25(with two ffb-motors) in October will at least reduce the friction of the wheel when turning. And i hope that thus the precision felt when driving will be upped compared to the black momo. And please, no cluttering with ffb-effects in the driver. I want REALISM, not sensationalism.
After all, driving a real car around at about 200km/h doesn't give me a noisy steering feel, neither should a racing simulation do. If it did, i probably wouldn't go that fast, anyway since i love living a little longer
.
Last edited by DrBen, .
much the same experience with bf1
That thing is just out of this world.
it is so blastingly fast, noone on public servers remembers to "bahve" well!
They all have more of a hand full with the task of not spinning/crashing/ under- or overbraking that beast.
But on the other hand it fits most of the current tracks, which are in fact mostly high-speed tracks with over all very broad tarmac and only slight corners, except let's say some fern bay tracks and maybe some out of south city.
Why i'm saying this? Well the most popular track is doomed to be Aston national. Most racers race this track in one of the bigger GTRs. And the bf1 is only the logiacal top-end addition to all those speed-freaks. BUT then again, for alle those it is much more of a handfull, cause all of the sudden even those high-speed tracks seem to get "narrower" when driven on with the bf1.
i've purchased my license only shortly after S2 came out. The car i was mostly awaiting: FZ50 and RAC. The car i now like the most? FZ50 -- and then the other roadgoing cars and then the big GTRs, small GTRs and at the long last the single-seaters. 'Cause the road cars are much more fun
. I feel like a small boy trying to really master a car, not like a dumm doll, that someone pushed into a Single-seater cockpit with slicks that's way above ones skill-level.
illepall
Maybe, with time going by i will develop a more intimate feel for the bf1. But for now i think of it more like a "nice to have" feature for some laps inbetween.
I think it's best value will be that it's going to bring LFS into the news. Intel is doing it's "racing tour" promotion with it and that might get a lot of people hooked onto LFS, that previously idin't even own a games-capable computer AND/OR just played some arcarde racer on a games-console.
it is so blastingly fast, noone on public servers remembers to "bahve" well!
They all have more of a hand full with the task of not spinning/crashing/ under- or overbraking that beast.
But on the other hand it fits most of the current tracks, which are in fact mostly high-speed tracks with over all very broad tarmac and only slight corners, except let's say some fern bay tracks and maybe some out of south city.
Why i'm saying this? Well the most popular track is doomed to be Aston national. Most racers race this track in one of the bigger GTRs. And the bf1 is only the logiacal top-end addition to all those speed-freaks. BUT then again, for alle those it is much more of a handfull, cause all of the sudden even those high-speed tracks seem to get "narrower" when driven on with the bf1.
i've purchased my license only shortly after S2 came out. The car i was mostly awaiting: FZ50 and RAC. The car i now like the most? FZ50 -- and then the other roadgoing cars and then the big GTRs, small GTRs and at the long last the single-seaters. 'Cause the road cars are much more fun
. I feel like a small boy trying to really master a car, not like a dumm doll, that someone pushed into a Single-seater cockpit with slicks that's way above ones skill-level.illepallMaybe, with time going by i will develop a more intimate feel for the bf1. But for now i think of it more like a "nice to have" feature for some laps inbetween.
I think it's best value will be that it's going to bring LFS into the news. Intel is doing it's "racing tour" promotion with it and that might get a lot of people hooked onto LFS, that previously idin't even own a games-capable computer AND/OR just played some arcarde racer on a games-console.
Last edited by DrBen, .
I really like the idea of bringing lfs into such media
and i am as well a big fan of the topgear program.
I like the fact that the moderators tend to name the pros and cons of the stuff they talk about just as like as if they were talking to their biggest mate!
So (almost) no manufacturer will get "faked PR" which makes it all very interesting to look at.
Also i see the fact that Jeremy, as the leading guy of the team, is heavily interested in the "joy and fun of motoring" (as he would probably say himself) That's a reason why we really should set something up with those guys.
But i think that probably we should consider better talking to all three of them, plus the stig, maybe setting up a LAN race, let's say, battling the best 10 british lfs drivers AND/OR having them race against some studio guests in realtime. James and Hammond once were sent to that scene with the teenage girl racing real-life remote-cars inside some kind of "mud-hole" -- and got lapped.
So why not just asking them out for a ride?
Maybe when S2 is in it's final stage? That would give them and the community a little time to figure out the best way to present lfs on such a program
I like the fact that the moderators tend to name the pros and cons of the stuff they talk about just as like as if they were talking to their biggest mate!
So (almost) no manufacturer will get "faked PR" which makes it all very interesting to look at.
Also i see the fact that Jeremy, as the leading guy of the team, is heavily interested in the "joy and fun of motoring" (as he would probably say himself) That's a reason why we really should set something up with those guys.
But i think that probably we should consider better talking to all three of them, plus the stig, maybe setting up a LAN race, let's say, battling the best 10 british lfs drivers AND/OR having them race against some studio guests in realtime. James and Hammond once were sent to that scene with the teenage girl racing real-life remote-cars inside some kind of "mud-hole" -- and got lapped.
So why not just asking them out for a ride?
Maybe when S2 is in it's final stage? That would give them and the community a little time to figure out the best way to present lfs on such a program
Last edited by DrBen, .
@ P5YcHoM4n and all others, interested
<warning! | long monologue>
I actually didn't want to deny the existance of something like that. But, a decidedly placed "NO!" - Such solutions are NOT quiet. If you considere a standard-office pc quiet i suggest you once wait till late at night, close all doors and windows, shut off aircon (if present) even shut off heating (if present) and your refirdgerator, anything that has moise-emmitting or moving parts on it. Well, if you live in a quiet place and do this, i bet you will get bored pretty soon, at what your standard-pc emmits in noise. Yes i have catched the "silence-virus" some time ago, that's why i spent some money and a good bunch of hours last year on making my oldie "shut up".
</long monologue>
However, the reason i've posted this is that i am really happy with the fact that lfs runs so great, even on (from today's point of view) low-range systems). This makes it stand out of the crowd. I feel like one out of many good racers. Not like an outsider, staring at ppl who enjoy a racing game that i cannot personaly compete in, just because of the better gear they have since they invested probably the same $amountOFmoney a glance in time later than me.
AND i still can enjoy the silence 'cause my system doesn't need the excessive amount of noise/cooling power what suggested game-pc's would require for just being capable of e.g. starting some arcarde racer like nfs:mw .
Well, if you use Windows just for playing lfs or RBR, like i do, you don't personally need Vista. And again, if the DEVs engage into the turnaround before it's too late and deny the implementation of the S3 Version relying on DirectX 10 (which will be available in binary only -as always-, and only for Vista AFAIK) then nobody in this community will have that problem. Not to forget that there are other systems like Macs or even the various Unix-like ystems as an alternative to that. LFS is still independant. The devs should considure making their work accessable on all popular X86 platforms as it would clearly benefit the growth of the lfs userbase. (There are a lot of people that would love playing lfs on linux, but nowerdays ffb is impossible through WINE and overall WINE is no clean solution, since it costs performance, naturally does not always work to the full extend and isn't easy to set up)
me too, me too but my next PC upgrade will not only be quiet but completely inaudable , dead-silent. That's for sure. Take a look at www.silentpcreview.com or, if you are a german-speaker, www.silenthardware.de/forum That's where people talk about this topic AND lot's of those (not all, of course) are even gamers themselves. There is simply no need to buy loud and hot stuff if you don't want to win a benchmark! Plus if you select yourself the right stuff you controll the development with your market force (your money). -Not that i would have to tell you, of course, some other forum readers might happen to actually read this though, so i pointed this out in detail
It's really the same with lfs. I instantly fell in love with it's accurate physics model, even the graphics are nice to look at, in my opinion. So about a year ago, i finally got licensed and joined a team --> no more time for the any other game, now! and happy ever after? -- Sure! Plus every one of us makes the DEVs go on with their life which is, ATM, live for speed!
nice one! You're a good role-model, mate
@ threadstarter: sorry for bringing some slight OT'iness into this thread !
LFS: It's independant, It's so f****n' realistic, it's loads of fun:
it simply rules!
<warning! | long monologue>
I actually didn't want to deny the existance of something like that. But, a decidedly placed "NO!" - Such solutions are NOT quiet. If you considere a standard-office pc quiet i suggest you once wait till late at night, close all doors and windows, shut off aircon (if present) even shut off heating (if present) and your refirdgerator, anything that has moise-emmitting or moving parts on it. Well, if you live in a quiet place and do this, i bet you will get bored pretty soon, at what your standard-pc emmits in noise. Yes i have catched the "silence-virus" some time ago, that's why i spent some money and a good bunch of hours last year on making my oldie "shut up".
</long monologue>
However, the reason i've posted this is that i am really happy with the fact that lfs runs so great, even on (from today's point of view) low-range systems). This makes it stand out of the crowd. I feel like one out of many good racers. Not like an outsider, staring at ppl who enjoy a racing game that i cannot personaly compete in, just because of the better gear they have since they invested probably the same $amountOFmoney a glance in time later than me.
AND i still can enjoy the silence 'cause my system doesn't need the excessive amount of noise/cooling power what suggested game-pc's would require for just being capable of e.g. starting some arcarde racer like nfs:mw .
Well, if you use Windows just for playing lfs or RBR, like i do, you don't personally need Vista. And again, if the DEVs engage into the turnaround before it's too late and deny the implementation of the S3 Version relying on DirectX 10 (which will be available in binary only -as always-, and only for Vista AFAIK) then nobody in this community will have that problem. Not to forget that there are other systems like Macs or even the various Unix-like ystems as an alternative to that. LFS is still independant. The devs should considure making their work accessable on all popular X86 platforms as it would clearly benefit the growth of the lfs userbase. (There are a lot of people that would love playing lfs on linux, but nowerdays ffb is impossible through WINE and overall WINE is no clean solution, since it costs performance, naturally does not always work to the full extend and isn't easy to set up)
me too, me too but my next PC upgrade will not only be quiet but completely inaudable , dead-silent. That's for sure. Take a look at www.silentpcreview.com or, if you are a german-speaker, www.silenthardware.de/forum That's where people talk about this topic AND lot's of those (not all, of course) are even gamers themselves. There is simply no need to buy loud and hot stuff if you don't want to win a benchmark! Plus if you select yourself the right stuff you controll the development with your market force (your money). -Not that i would have to tell you, of course, some other forum readers might happen to actually read this though, so i pointed this out in detail
It's really the same with lfs. I instantly fell in love with it's accurate physics model, even the graphics are nice to look at, in my opinion. So about a year ago, i finally got licensed and joined a team --> no more time for the any other game, now! and happy ever after? -- Sure! Plus every one of us makes the DEVs go on with their life which is, ATM, live for speed!
nice one! You're a good role-model, mate
@ threadstarter: sorry for bringing some slight OT'iness into this thread !
LFS: It's independant, It's so f****n' realistic, it's loads of fun:
it simply rules!
Last edited by DrBen, .
you don't know how much i agree with what you just said!
No mate! You're dead right! And i'd like to add that i cannot wait until the devs reimplement the graphics engine to work on more platforms than MS-Windows since that would make me save lots and lots of disk space!
But therefor one would need to convince the makers of ffb-wheels to agree on an open-spec, mulit-platform standard in ffb dev-toolkit. Without that, any advancement of lfs in that direction would be, of course, rendered useless.
I want lfs in Debian/non-free!
EDIT
@ ALL
You all nailed the essence of lfs in this thread!
I also would like to add:
i would rather spend my little money on improved verions of lfs than having to buy myself new gear, worth hundreds of euros, every year, just to find that better graphics don't give me the value i anticipated
First of all, i am interested in a quiet PC, since i spend a lot of time working with it, non-lfs related stuff for my studies and so on...
BUT the game industry wants to drive me into buying new gear, especially graphics-wise, since their new games will look like crap on a box more than say 1-1/2 years of age. PLUS all that high-end GPUs demand more and more power, getting hotter still and thus uncoolable if you want your PC quiet. That is frustrating, since i like Computers and PC-Games a lot. But i just cannot afford an air-conditioning system for my PC, since
1. something like that does not really exist
2. would be more expensive than the whole box in parts
3. is doomed to driving me nuts by making a tremendous amount of noise!
AND no, i have neither the time, nor money or good-will to all-too-many experiments with new and expensive gear.
Currently i think a lot of upgrading to a (half-new) box since my current one is over 4 years old, now - and thus i begin to "fear" future updates to the game. Currently in online-gaming i temporarily get to as low as 15-20 fps with no AA or AF turned on whatsoever. But think about this:
Presumably, lfs is this popular since it does not require people to spend a fortune on using it! -- I also started off with mouse-steer and still use it every once-in-a-while
To give one more thought about it, i really anticipate the launch of that new G25 Wheel, which will - let's name it - cost me a small fortune all by itself, if i can get ahold of one later this year.
Last edited by DrBen, .
after not getting sufficient feedback from university net...
just did what the op did before and initiated a traceroute to the machine what i think is the masterserver.
It goes like this...
this is where i {ctrl-c}'ed the traceroute
and yes, i am usually a GNU/Linux user
But i sure am not a network expert so i cannot extract any meaning from the traceroute output.
Could you perhaps take a look at it, please?
so long
tuxator
It goes like this...
this is where i {ctrl-c}'ed the traceroute
and yes, i am usually a GNU/Linux user
But i sure am not a network expert so i cannot extract any meaning from the traceroute output.
Could you perhaps take a look at it, please?
so long
tuxator
thanks for your suggestions
Thank you all // Danke noch mal für Eure Auskünfte
well, the situation is slightly complicated, since i have acces over the university network. And getting DSL only for LFS is no real justification i guess, to pay over 25 Euros more per month, just for internet access. I now pay about 7,80 Euros/month for university network (~70k, unlimited usage and generally good ping ((~30ms))).
Thus i have asked for help in our internal forum, now i got the hint that this problem is network-centric
Thank's guys,
i will keep you up-to-date of what's happening
DrBen
---------------------
no i'm really not a doctor! My nick tells a different story
well, the situation is slightly complicated, since i have acces over the university network. And getting DSL only for LFS is no real justification i guess, to pay over 25 Euros more per month, just for internet access. I now pay about 7,80 Euros/month for university network (~70k, unlimited usage and generally good ping ((~30ms))).
Thus i have asked for help in our internal forum, now i got the hint that this problem is network-centric
Thank's guys,
i will keep you up-to-date of what's happening
DrBen
---------------------
no i'm really not a doctor! My nick tells a different story
have lag problems, too
alright:
as i already read in some thread i cannot remember anymore:
it came to me from one day to another -- or, lets say from one year to the other.
Last year in mid-december i installed patch q on both: my desktop and my notebook. it worked perfectly well at the time.
when i came back from christmas holidays and tried to connect to any server like the day before yesterday i now have that very weird problem:
i connect to a server (like our teamserver '*drt*racing 2' ) i cannot stay online for more than some laps or even just some seconds. This happens not only on our servers but on every server i tried the last couple of days.
The best result was being thrown off the server after at least finishing a 5 round race on as-nat,, when racing on one of our teamservers.
The green connection bar just rises, and rises, and *puff* i'm out of the race, off the server (any server, as explained above).
Question is, how can i trace back the problem??
I already tried a lot to rule out any influence my actual hardware could have on the gameplay. As noticed above, both of my boxes have exactly the same symptoms. What drives me mad is that at least my desktop has not had any changes, neither in soft- nor in hardware, since i left my place for the holidays. --and i usually don't do study-work when running the windows-install. Windows' only justification is for playing lfs
Maybe my net-connection is the weak part in the chain??
It wasn't till the day before yesterday, though.
Any suggestions?
as i already read in some thread i cannot remember anymore:
it came to me from one day to another -- or, lets say from one year to the other.
Last year in mid-december i installed patch q on both: my desktop and my notebook. it worked perfectly well at the time.
when i came back from christmas holidays and tried to connect to any server like the day before yesterday i now have that very weird problem:
i connect to a server (like our teamserver '*drt*racing 2' ) i cannot stay online for more than some laps or even just some seconds. This happens not only on our servers but on every server i tried the last couple of days.
The best result was being thrown off the server after at least finishing a 5 round race on as-nat,, when racing on one of our teamservers.
The green connection bar just rises, and rises, and *puff* i'm out of the race, off the server (any server, as explained above).
Question is, how can i trace back the problem??
I already tried a lot to rule out any influence my actual hardware could have on the gameplay. As noticed above, both of my boxes have exactly the same symptoms. What drives me mad is that at least my desktop has not had any changes, neither in soft- nor in hardware, since i left my place for the holidays. --and i usually don't do study-work when running the windows-install. Windows' only justification is for playing lfs
Maybe my net-connection is the weak part in the chain??
It wasn't till the day before yesterday, though.
Any suggestions?
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG