Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Yes that. I wouldn't buy the G27 looking like that.

That "photoshop-ed" (why not "GimP-ed" ?) really doesn't look like a quality job: just imagine the tiny size of those 6 buttons put on the current G25 / or the "super-size me" wheel it'd be if to accomodate all those buttons.

I think it was just simply the genius idea of yet another G25 buyer who was - just like me quite frankly -bored to tears by the fact that the much cheaper Playsi-wheels are so more versatile when it comes to reach and usability of their button allignment!

And of course the fact that if you use the shifter-switch a little more often that crucial accessory is just bound to break very soon-ish because of its all-round inferiour bild-quality and construction (when compared to the rest of the pack).

Anyway -> I just think they are planning another "toy" in order to not lose their market share to the surprisingly strong competitsion they are facing by the guys from fanatic. They just happened to surprise everyone, me too e.g. talking their new clubsport-pedals that come either in bundle AND/OR independent USB-guise.

Just think about it: They JUST HAD to react in order to not bore people into the hands of their competitors. Showing that real competition does matter quite a deal!

Greets & have fun when you purchase whichever wheel you favour!
DrBen

Quote :

For clarity though i'm not just talking about track temperature, but dust/sand and dirt being dragged onto the track

good point there. up until now we only have dirt as a very individual hinderance on the car's tyres -> quite simply a temporary loss of peak-traction capability. The surface itself is utterly static.

However thinking about how limited the potential sources of dirt are on a track I think that there can be something done using a good amount of approximation. We already have visual dust spread when a car's tyre goes slightly off the tarmac. So I suppose the information on where the dust falls down is already there. Now one would have to somehow develop a kind of "real-time dust-capacity per square meter" + the aforementioned temperature for the ground to introduce some new values for grip-limitation on the ground-surface side of things in addition to the tyres.

Oooops: here we go again: unfinished tyre model. So without changing this we don't get the other. You guys got me thinking

Plus this would present the need to be communicated throughout the connected clients and the host: so do I sense a major rework in netcode, here? Is it at all possible to achieve sufficient speed at communicating these values when racing online?

Anyway - although just losely connected with LFS - there are some interesting thoughts in this thread.

Disclaimer: no I am in no way a skilled programmer -> so please do not hesitate telling me if I'm way off the point here.

Hi again,

what OmniMoAK told you is more or less the basics of all driving:
The correct braking technique:
threshhold -> applying full brake-force until turn-in.
trailbrake -> losening the brake in a smooth way from 100% to 0 while at all times applying as much braking-power as the wheels can take without locking when turning into and throughout a corner.

Trailbrake is usually used from turn-in up to hitting the apex of a corner. The lack in feel in your braking foot is compensated by
a) your force-feedback wheel making you eperience a lightened steering-force when oversteering/overbraking
b) your ingame-sound telling you one or more tyres are skidding at the edge of traction

a) usually won't come in a sudden burst and can be felt before b) gets serious. It is a fine line but with practice you will develop a feel for that.

Keep in mind that the XFG is front-wheel-drive. This means the front-tyres' grip is needed for both: acceleration/braking AND steering. You can only steer as effectively as the difference in
[ maximum traction _minus_ brake-force ] leaves you to do this. If your steering angle is spot-on but you understeer then release the brake a little more.

When brake-balance is set to less than 70%-ish at Front then the brake might help a little at turn-in under braking but on the other hand will make the car suffer oversteer when over-braking and the minimum stopping-distance in a straight line is prolonged to some (minor) degree. This is the first thing to learn when adjusting one's set-up. Try different settings for the brake-balance -> although anything out of the 60%...75% - front-based range will probably not be wise on tarmac racing

Some people mount skiddier intermediate-tyres on the rear axle to allow for less understeer on windy tracks. I wouldn't recommend that for anything other than hotlapping on blackwood. Stability will suffer since those tyres will heat up a lot faster than the standard-road-tyres after a few laps!

Keep on going fast and smooth
DrBen

have fun "re-learning" to drive.
It'll sure take some time. Don't try too hard, though. Switching to a wheel takes some time to get the feel right.
Also make sure to try full-linear steering ( there is an option in the driver's / control called ""Wheel turn compensation")
Try to deactivate any sort of this input-modulation. I started using a wheel with this setting ON because I blindly copied some recommended settings and didn't think about it for myself.
Chances are - seeing you have been using mouse-steer for some time- you never used that option, anyway. In that case don't bother.

But if you had that ON, you might want to test it out:
When I eventually changed that to 'completely OFF' (I think a value of 0.0 did the trick) I was catching the counter-steer so much easier than before. A linear steering really does help there!

On the downside it means a very direct (thus sharp) steering around center though. In my opinion you couldn't care less except when cruising at walking-pace.
Others say it is due to personal preference, though

Happy racing
&
don't slam you wheel against the wall if the fast times still take a few more laps to come by!

Cheers

Quote from wsinda :

The human eye has a small part -- the area of focus -- where you can see in good detail, and the rest is peripheral vision with a wide FOV. Compare that to an LCD monitor (...)

Think about putting on a full-face helmet with a pull-down screen. I only once in my life (only recently) sat in a kart going for my fist ever couple of RL-laps and the first impression was: "What's up with my vision/FOV". Luckily I could leave the screen open since it was just a small indoor track. I seriously doubt that anyone wearing such a device will ever get a vision close to what you get in a street car. I think a reasonably modern PC-rig with a large wide-screen display running at 1680x1050 or even 1920x1200 -tuned at the right viewing angle- will give you a much larger fov (in lfs) than what you can experience in RL when wearing a helmet.

Quote :

(With nondynamic tracks it's not so important, because you can drive by memory: you don't so much see where the bumps are, you remember them.)

Isn't this partly the core of racing on a circuit: getting a quick and mostly accurate grasp of the track and actually remembering the potential go's and no-go's so-to-speak?
I say you do have a point there saying the level of difficulty controling a car on an ever-changing surface / dynamicly open piece of track will increase by some margin. But that would apply for all of the players. And that would mean for them to adjust in the most obvious ways:

-> they'd begin to use more all-round capable setups with less limited handling characteristics, thus making it possible to use a different line here and there in order to circumvent occuring inconveniences when racing in a more dynamic environment. Put in simple terms: the number of drivers using hotlap-setups in a race will decrease
-> they'd change their driving style to being more alert to forthcoming dangers & take less risks in on-the-edge dogfights, because racing-lines and track conditions are less predictable. It just might take some time for this change to happen. Cleaner racing - I agre with Becky on this - would be one of it's by-products.
If this projection is correct, then I honestly can't wait for it to hit lfs. It'll be well wroth the time waiting for.

status-quo:
But on the other hand: When I read that the sim-makers really spend too much thought on the car and it's mechanical systems then I can think of a perfectly good reason for this:
It's mostly the teenagers and car-lovers that are attracted to this kind of computer-game/sport up until this day. And of course THEY tend to focus on exactly that: "What does the car do when...?" "How am I going to master this or that car?".

wher to aim at?
What simulating actual motor-racing does or will be doing is going far beyond that. And here I do agree with Becky 100%: If the vehicl dynamics are at a point of refinement that is -judged by itself- this good and at the same time the overall racing feel is this far behind in almost all other aspects: then to take away the focus from the cars might really mean a giant step in the right direction!
That's not to say: "Don't finish the job on the tyres mate, they're good-enough"
To go with this example: Actually I think they are -quite frankly- good enough for Stage 2, now. As perfection is and will always be hard to achieve, stepping away from them for a bit and focusing the attention on other parts of the sim might just be a good idea once in a while.

After all the question is: (might drift off the main topic a little)
With what product will the more driving-focused user stick with? Or is it that this type of simrace does only exist in small numbers and the big money will be with those that just pose to be a driving sim? If so then the future of LFS or any other seriously thought-through sim is in BIG TROUBLE. Because there is no point in working on a product that isn't going to sell at all.
I for one waited with trying the GTR2 game until it became part of the low-budget sell-out mass at our local supermarket. The thing that put me off there was the domonstration version that didn't allow me to try the simulation-mode although it was purely out there to promote a driving-simulation. That's sort of paradox, isn't it? And it is the same story with rFactor. Just that I kind of read the other day that there now is a version out there allowing some mod-content to be tested for a limited time. Great. Just now I really lost interest for far too long in order to aproach that product again. To cut a long story short: I didn't like what I saw/felt/turned-my-wheel-at, so that was that (admittedly it has to do with driving-physics, there)

But then again: all the major magazines and journalists alike rather point at those mainstream-titles with official licenses of car-models, tracks and whole RL racing-leagues. And they do it for a reason: Those at the end of the supply-chain gain public awareness with it. And the more people play, the better they and their products will be recognised by the crowd. And connecting a new product with an "image" that has spread the world before never was a bad idea: called 'Marketing'. And it works because it is easy and thereby cost-effective to satisfy those who do not have too high expectations. Serious driving simply is not for everybody.


When I turn my head again and look at lfs which is still there, taking on this competition, I feel amazed - and immensely lucky at the same time...
...it gives me something I really like: a racing simulation that does what it should better and better, every time I start it. With enough players online that I can have a good race or two when I feel like it. A very straight-forward interface to all its settings that no other program I ever run could offer that even lets me acutally see what I do to the car when tuning its set-up.
Hope it'll survive the competition of that money- crazy i-Racing stuff and the advances of the ever more photo-realistic, "plastic-fantastic" arcade-genre that we are facing these days.

It will be interesting in what way improvements on dynamic environments will have an impact on lfs - when they come. I think one of it's real advantages has always been the small demand of system-specs and resources allowing for almost anybody to join end enjoy lfs online-racing. I can still use my 4y old laptop (P-M 1.4/ati-M11-64M) with lfs. What competing product even comes close?

Quote from spenceris :

i just cant stand it anymore... shes coming back from work and shes pretending to be tired i mean c'mon... she said were going to get it tommorow.. and i said to her today is tommorow so..

Patience. She's only human, you know?

Quote :

Im talking about my mom here

Well if that's going on for a couple of days you might just be a little nice to her & maybe point out that an S2 license would really make you happy putting the new wheel to some good use.
Alternatively RBR is like 5€ nowadays. Doesn't feature no single-seaters but surely hast a very rewarding driving-school and nice tracks&graphics! Works well with the Momo-black, as well.

Good luck!

I guess the 2 semi-auto GTRs have it as well. I usually drive the FZR (manual bg). I know that the F08 and the BF1 (two big SS) do not interfer in the same way. The Fox (mid-level SS) neither. But the MRT is equiped with a switch as well.
But don't worry: with analogue gas&brake that will be solved after about 5 minutes of getting used to it.

Sweet dreams:auto:

DrBen

Quote :

i understand that. when i use auto gear on fbm its not neccesary to lift off the throttle button, but if i use manual gearing i have to lift off the throttle. simple as that.

For the FBM that is exactly right - that car has an electronic "switch" connected to the throttle that will prevent shifting with more than 2/3rds of applied power - and that is one of the reasons I do not like it that much when using mouse. Still I consider this a good way of having beginners not ruin their racing-rig right-away. After all this is a feature of the real car after which the fbm is modelled.

But there are cars in lfs that you can abuse with wrong shifting. And then the clutch will fry and your speed decline. Even Auto-clutch will not help you there when neglecting the the right use of the throttle. But then again: no freaking switch there, so it depends on the driver to match revs accurately - an that is much more rewarding & fun than semi-automatic harnesses in my believe.

Quote from G!NhO :

only in rallying its quicker to powerslide through a corner, i think because of the 4wd and the lack of grip.

That's what it is. A 4wd Rally-Car will always be quicker slow-in and the max-power-out of a corner (as will almost every other car btw.)

It's because of the relatively low lateral grip on loose surfaces and due to the fact that a 4WD car will allways resemble a a front-wheel-drive at the entrance of a corner more than a RWD. Depending on how you set up the drive this will eventually translate into slight oversteer on the exit under power. But going into a corner too fast will unly result in locking up the front wheels and thus heavy understeer under braking (consider the plus in weight over a 2WD as well).

Bottom line: Powering through a corner in a well set-up 4WD at exactly the right entrance-speed and turn-in will "pull" the car around a lot better than trying to recover traction from (too)heavy braking.

That's why a 4wd might need a little "feint" steering input before going sideways that an rwd usually will do without.

auto-clutch means that an electric motor operates the clutch and the gearbox when asked for a gear. You will still have to lilft the throttle or blib it to match revs.

Auto-clutch != (IS NOT) automatic transmission.

Bottom line: "no"
Reason:
It doesn't come with a clutch pedal nor with an h-shifter
so you will have to stick to auto-clutch. And with that not using your left foot on the brake is rather absurd.

BTW. When competing online I hardly use h-shifter&clutch although I could with the G25. It's just not fast enough compared to the insanely fast aut-clutch.
Let alone the single-seaters that usually have an auto-clutch built in in RL, as well

btw. I edited my post in the other thread.

about heel&toe:

that is a techniqe on manual road-cars (with h-shifter and clutch) where your left foot is occupied by the clutch-pedal. It is the technical term of down-shifting while braking. The right foot is then used for braking (as in a normal car) while simultaneously blipping the throttle with its heel for a split-second just before releasing the clutch and letting the gear "come". It is used to match the higher revs of the engine with the lower gear when downshifting.
If you don't do so you're clutch will not live long in a manual car.

On single-seaters you usually use right foot for gas and left foot for braking - as in a cart. Just that on "grown-up" racers you don't just have a rear-brake to trigger

You're planning to burn it after just half a year?
If you don't kick it around you house too often it should last quite a bit longer than that!
I don't know about your local dealers but the recommended sales price of both of these Logitech wheels are identical.
EUR 149,- in GER
However retail-prices here have been jumping around 90-100EUR for the Momo and the predecessor of the GT (the good-old "driving-force-pro").
I can imagine given the recent introduction of the new GT-model that there are some gap between street-prices, now.

That said, if you can get a black momo for under 100EUR (or the relative equivalent price-point where you are living/shopping) then it is a good deal for a fairly good wheel


EDIT: the most signifficant impact a wheel will have on your driving is with the analogue throttle and brake - pedals. Not with the steering since you learned quite a bit about that when perfecting mouse-steer.
The Force-Feedback however will give you an advantage especially on mid- to long-distance races. You will be able to feel when the ride suffers from touches and crashes before you change your direction. You will be able to react quicker, much less depending on visual feedback. For a beginner's wheel I still consider the black momo very capable. Given that you like the single-seaters most of all, it should suffice just fine.

Last edited by DrBen, Mon 24 Nov 2008, 20:05.

You're right about the cost *what was I thinking*

However the Momo isn't exactly rubbish. In fact it is very nice for a wheel with only 240° of steering lock. It is a comfortable thing to hold in your hands and the 6 buttons + 2 shift-paddles on the wheel are just about enough for what you'll do with them.
It's just the pedal-unit that came with it that let me down with the wheel itself being not even half way through it's life.
Second minor disadvantage with the black Momo is its motor-resistance. The high gearing inside of the mechanism means additional physical resistance when counter-steering quickly. That said, with enough force applied, it is still way quicker to counter-steer a wheel at 240° lock than it is to do this on a 1080° car in real life. The motor-resistance on the other hand takes away some feel and with that accuracy.

So if you hadn't already ordered the momo I'd have seriously suggested the Driving-Force-GT (Playstation3-wheel).

First and formost, I salute you for your effort you put in coming this far.

If by now you cannot improve any further in lap-times running the fbm, here's my top-tip: take another car.

XRG and XFG are open to demo-users, so take either and feel the difference.
Although I now own a G25 since about a year or so I still quite often just use mouse when going for a quick spin in the road-cars myself. If you have set up your controls the right way that is...

...fully-linear steering, gas brake
...no "helping hands" of any sort
then you can go a long way using a mouse except in a F08 or BF1 for that matter, they are just un-raceable using mouse because of their insane power-to-weight figures
...another thing that you should check is the sharpness-settings of the textures in the graphics/display options. I just recently explored that the long-kept defaults can be signifficantly improved allowing for much better visuals of bumps, road-surface and curbs.

If going for a wheel, please consider one of the newer 2nd-generation Logitech Driving Force GT's if your budget isn't on par with a G25. They are marketed for Playstation-3 but work just fine with a PC. Check out a short review at insidesimracing http://insidesimracing.blip.tv ... vingForceGTWheelReview593
Having a higher usable steering lock is of GREAT advantage over a cheap'n'cheefull Momo-Racing (the still available black one). Especially when it comes to any road-car or GTR. I am talking out of experience since I had one of those myself.

Keep in mind though, that -in the old days- the pedals of the cheaper Logitechs tend to wear out after a year's worth of intense use or so. People say that newer revisions should have improved substantially - but tbh: I'd still have an unsound feeling about them.
The G25's weak point on the other hand is the h-shifter. I already hat my entire set replaced because of this little accessory going bust for no comprehensible reason whatsoever (and I do not throw my kit against the wall, never!).

One other thing I might suggest is: get some fresh air before getting frustrated. Plus: Go and dig up some 32 british pounds in order to aquire an S2 license. Sounds as if you might enjoy one.

Cheers
DrBen

Quote from squidhead :

Quoting Tokyo Drift is not helping...

wasn't aware of that, at all - I didn't even bother to watch that 3rd incarnation of utter nonsense :schwitzeven though back in the day I liked the original TFATF because of that gorgeous mid-90's green Supra / then hated it for it gave EA inspiration for games like underground thus obliterating the great NFS-legacy ---- Initial-D is way more entertaining, anyway )

Quote from tristancliffe :

Utter tosh. Most of the best drivers on the planet will avoid anything more than about 10° of yaw at all time, and only accept between 5 and 10° in exceptional circumstances.

Not to offend your believes, which I assume are technically 100% correct; Are you sure this fully applies to lfs, as well? Think about the number of cars with road-tires combined with rough-surface tracks
To my understanding of the matter, people tend to "try harder" in lfs than most of them would go in real life racing, i.e.: They push their driving to extreme even in a racing situation in narrow and unforgiving s-bends like the chicane in South City. Only some footage I have seen on youtube with a Lotus-pilot on a rather well-known street-track comes remotely close to what I see & experience on lfs public servers every day.

Quote :

Learning to be out of control before you can be in control is just a idiots way of saying "I'm shit at driving, but I might get better".

Well granted, no professional would allow him/herself to go "out of control" no matter what. They would rather end their race than to risk a good portion of their essential moving parts on their car and/or body.

However, given the situation we - as Sim-drivers - are in, we don't pay for hospital or broken cars&tracks when we drive lfs. The track shines in perfect condition every time start over and the number of race-ready car replacements doesn't cost us a single dime.

So YES, THAT PART OF THE SIM IS GAME-LIKE -- whether we like it or not. So that's why inevitably, fresh and unexperienced drivers will tend to run wild on the virtual track when being introduced to the advanced physics of lfs.

The only way to come around this problem is to try and behave like a real racer. And that's why I'd like to encourage the newer racers to find out themselves what car control is all about.
I already explained above to some degree, that I see drifting as one of many driving techniques rather than a style. If you don't know how to master a slide - or in other terms: a moment of instability with skidding involved - you will very likely fail in keeping the control of your vehicle, thus rendering clean racing impossible.

I might add one more vital Ingredient to the recipe of how-to become a cleaner racer through drift-practice:

4 times of simple straight-forward newbie-advise::

1.
If you want to experience drifting you are encouraged to do so, e.g. offline or on a designated drift-server. BUT as long as you really want to race seriously in lfs DO NOT USE SPECIALLY DESIGNED DRIFT-SETUPS to start with. Most of them are unsuited for any form of real racing! If you start off with this kind of thing you will just satisfy rapid progress by becoming a "false-learner".

2.
If you want to learn about the boundaries of your car's dynamics then go with a moderately neutral all-round setup / i.e. one with agile handling designed to run long-distance on twisty, bumpy and narrow road tracks (like Fern Bay green) combined with normal street-like gear-ratios. The provided "Race-S"-sets provided in the original package generally come very close to that.

3.
You can always push the length of your drifts by changing to Offroad-tires all around and filling them up with air (hint: especially demo-users will find the XRG will get immensely more skid-capable with that). Fresh starters might also try this and frequently change from road-tires to dirt-track-tires (using the same setup) - again meant as to not learn the wrong "feel".

4.
After playing around on your own, searching on youtube for something like "drift bible" might be a good idea. It's just that for total driving-novices all the hints and talk in those vids are likely to sound pretty much alike the last one if you do not exactly know what the "wise guys" are referring to in detail.

Last edited by DrBen, Mon 24 Nov 2008, 18:21.

Quote :

from jaykay3000
yep. Gotta learn to be out of controll before you can really improve on being in controll.

I'll second that!
I had the advantage of watching/reading Initial-D after making it into LFS for a rather substantial amount of time (S2-racing since 2006). And I also kind of remember this phrase that came up in the anime/manga.

I have to say that this english translation sounds a a little "weird" to me - but then again, I'm no native speaker, neither of English nor Japanese. Just talking about the terminology here.

My conclusion is that I use "drifts" as a tool in racing. I don't see it as a 'driving-style' as long as it's not meant to be for show. To me it's a rather plain description of either the back axxis (2-wheel-) or both (4-wheel - drift) losing their lateral traction.

E.g. on some tracks you will prefer an understeery setup for your car to gain faster laptimes when your surroundings are clear. But facing close competition on some corners will make you unable to react to unforeseeable shortage of line-choices as smoothly as if going with a better-handling setup.
You can see it on CTRA-1 all the time: ppl that are unable to control their vehicle when some "obstacle" (e.g. _me_) blocks their racing line.

Most of them just crash into it not knowing what to do or how to cope with a sudden and never-before-experienced range of vehicle dynamics. Specially when different types of cars are involved like XRG vs XFG. It's because they all start as "grip"-drivers so-to-speak (again: don't really like that term) and practise their lap times, go right to the edge of what's physically possible but never bother to go beyond - cause that'd inevitably slow them down.

So yeah: sometimes a drift-technique comes in quite handy. Mostly in races you start drifting without really knowing it. That's probably the kind of thing that happens first to novice-drivers. After managing such, one will eventually start to anticipate losage of traction on specific corners. Later - much later - one will begin to understand ones own vehicle's dynamics and that's when the path is clear to gain the ability to "read" the opponents' cars' movements, as well.
That said I would like to add that practicing car control - even drifting for that matter - is huge fun!.

So yes, knowing how to drift really means knowing how to race better. But keep an eye on the traffic & your tires, will you?

Greets
DrBen

I think you're right in saying "do we want one?"

Main reason is: such a differential will make you faster - granted. BUT - a big but - it will distance the driver somewhat from the feel and his/her dedication on the vehicle physics.

AND it will distance an experienced/skilled setup artist even further from the rest of the pack. So do we really want it? I guess it depends on what the individual driver wants and what the majority is going to favor.

I for one would like play with such a thing, for sure.
But outright competition would sure be a hitting a somewhat impact if going for a change. In what direction the specific results are going to turn out is to be seen.

My guess is that especially on STD and TBO-Class the disadvantage in applyable grip on the rear wheel drive cars might be able to be solved by an active diff. If so this would make me happy in bringing fwd and rwd-cars to a closer match, again.

Cheers
DrBen

YES, there are proper races with clean and sound racers to be found in S2.

No, not nessecarily at all times on CTRA anymore, I'm afraid.
I think it's got something to do with the points-measurement & reward-scale and, of course, with the jumped-up popularity this X-systen has seen in the last couple of months.
I started racing on there when still named "STCC" ...public something. And it was a huge difference to what you see "nowadays".

Reason? I see it as this:
when solely run with touring cars (i.e. near-stock-standard cars with road-tires) and the prospect of eventually qualify for that STCC racing-league - which unfortunately didn't live long enough to take off and lead the way to a strong following outside the reach of S2 - license holders, this was the best way to have fun in the standard-cars provided in lfs. There were virtually no servers on permanently running STD and TBO class anymore. Worse still, the beautiful lrf-class cars didn't seem to drag any attention to them outside the drift scene.
->Everybody was power-hungry, going straight to the GTR-class of cars and messing around mostly on the beginner-friendly and comparatively short-and-wide high-speed tracks such as Aston National
(as3). My team used to host such a server when S2 came out. Until encountering some tech-related problems that one was like bursting from within - with near 20+ racers being constantly on in the evenings. Yes, we are a fun-team and not into any form of professional server-hosting. Thus we had a few wreckers and -when one of us was on- so we gave out warnings and kicks time and again - making a fun environment for clean racing possible. And the overall popularity of that specific track grew by a huge margin - with new servers appearing out of nowhere.

THAT you see is the problem today:
As soon as with the x-system those new CTRA-servers got introduced and the licensing system was enlarged to the higher car classes, everyone and everything started to go rank-crazy. Thus relieving the CTRA-2 with it's TBO-class cars of the majority of its racers -> they are competing with the higher-ranked on CTRA3, now.

That's because there they get to race all the already-proven-to-be-fast competitors and -hopefully- some cleaner racing than on the newbie-grade CTRA-1. AND only on the higer servers they can effectively collect points to move up in the ranks, since holding e.g. a platinum license means _significant_ shortage of the received points when scoring some good positions racing in a beginner-grade car.

And there you have it: As soon as the license allows one will strive for getting points even faster -> thus moving to a higher car-class and joining most-likely the Racing-3 - given the almost-empty state of the tbo-class server.

Interestingly, some higher-ranked CTRA-users seem to join even the Racing1 for some pedal-to-the-metal fun here and there - so am I. I't simply because racing the road-cars is fun. And it's most fun with a large number of competitors. Only there is one catch: The Racing1 is beginner-grade. And today this doesn't mean you can expect clean racing all the time. Not even half the time, to be honest 'cause minor mistakes happen much too frequent and mostly all over the place on that one. Then there is the misconception of a lot of new ones how to behave plus the somewhat "nosy" atmosphere when things get chaotic...
...resulting in me leaving that place after a couple of sprints.

That said, the races sometimes are and still CAN BE MUCH FUN. It's simply a matter of WHEN to join a server and meeting the right people.

PLUS - simple but true:
most casual racers - who make up a large proportion of the CTRA "heavy-users" - just go by the 'not-empty' filter in the built-in server list. And there most of the time the Racing2 just doesn't sho up, due to a lack of racers. I have been joining it and started a race a few days back and it took about half an hour until some of the "lost sheep" that appeared on there (and some of them leaving straight-away again) settled for some good racing action. But, yeah, that takes some dedication and some time to come by.

Happy Racing
Heiko aka [D-R-T] Dr.Ben


PS.: shame the CTRA ditched the lrf server.

And here another tip: sometimes when not over-loaded with ppl the Jump'n'bump can be fun, too. Just try to stay out of it when the "cracks" go for time-attacs in the middle of the race. To be honest: that can confuse an acutal race as much as some newbies crashing on the first 2 corners

Quote from Gekkibi :

... However, shouldn't change cruising filter to "Not race server" filter? That would include both cruising and drifting (And also destruction derby).

Yeah but that would quite simply switch the odds of the lfs experience around, now being a pain for any drifter or cruiser. I would prefer making it easier thus more accessible for all the popular types of racing.

Quote :

The problem is that why should drifting servers flag their server as "not race server"? What do they earn by doing so?

The drifters would - given the situation that almost approximately 70% of the servers with road-car combos are in fact labelled as drift-servers - not gain as much for the time-being, of course. But in the long run I think they, too, will have a better experience as well, since they can then chose their preferred form of racing in exactly the same manor as anyone else.

Given the fact that the most popular types of racing atm are:
{proper track-racing; drifting; cruising; drag-racing; rally-X;} I would systematically introduce those categories as server-tags + a tag for "other" to offer a seperate tag all the other types of racing that I didn't think of in that list. Jump & bump racing for example can be distinguished by looking at the offered track which shows up in the server list what-so-ever. Drifting can only be "seen" when looking at the server-name - but sadly not always are server-names including that much information.

That's why I think offering a tag for the most-common forms of motor-racing would enhance the acceptance of my suggested distinguation of race-types. Of course this leaves the choice in the hands of the user to filter the list of servers to his liking or, for example, go without any filters, at all.

Again, my main theme is to safe the occasional racer and the power user a lot of unnessecary time picking out a suitable server, when going for "a quick race".

Greets
[D-R-T] DrBen

I am one of those that aren't as active in the moment, so sorry if I state something that has already been discussed previously:

it's about the filters for the multiplayer server list: I am a huge fan of that "curising" filter that was introduced recently and now here is my thought on that:

why not make another filter for seperating drifters from racers??

it would be a huge improvement for those who - like me - feel the need for a ride in lfs from time to time but are interested in the less popular cars for racing. For me, I'm more interested in having fun in cars with road-going tyres. But when I find myself in deselecting cruise and restricting to the non-single-seater and non-slick-tyres-vehicles then there almost only appear to be drift-servers set up for those cars. And that means I'm having a hard time to filter out the relevant servers that are open to real racing with my very own eyes an my right hand on my mouse.
I think the possibility for ruling all those drift-servers out of sight would hugely benefit all people out there that want to go "street-racing" but DO NOT WANT TO END UP ON A DRIFT SERVER. For example nearly 95% of the servers that do feature the LX-class are drift-servers. Finding one server in that list that isn't and has people playing can be a real pain - and I think it even might discourage many racers to try and search for such combinations later on, as well.

Yes, of courser there is always the one to three ctra-servers nowadays where such racing does actually exist. But I do not always want to compete with other licensees - i.e. to worry about my license status. Sometimes I just prefer on fooling around in a real race that doesn't harm my status on ctra and/or that allows for some completely different car-track-configurations than those offered on that special server at the given time.

Maybe it is even a good idea to offer filter-tags for closed-league racing, public servers or team-servers within the filter-system in multiplayer-menu, so there will be less of a question about "should I join here or is it probably about some serious league I didn't here or read about previously?".

Well as stated above: seperating real racers from drifters - and thereby allowing for a more straight-on lfs-online experience is my main concern for now.

Just my 2 cent.

Thank you for you time

[D-R-T] DrBen

my wheels started of with a TM Enzo (with force-feedback) when it was relatively fresh on the market.
It had a good feel to it in the sense of its effects and its overall design but it fell short in the sense of build quality / finish. And let's not forget it only has about 260° of rotation so it's more of a wheel for arcade-style racing games than for the real stuff like LFS. In my case the right shifter lever broke into 2 parts one day because of a design problem: there was a very, very strong spring to hold it back. The force needed to initiate a shift was simply "too much" for the thin layer of plastic that this lever was made of.
Pedals were: "cheap but good" plastic with sufficient resistance and long-enough travel and had an overall nice feel to them.

Logitech MOMO black
Next in line was the black and relatively low-price "momo racing force" that you can still buy:
The wheel itself: very nice finish. It is rubber-coated but at the main grip-zone it does have some "airy" surface-rubber which keeps the sweat from beeing "stored" too much. I liked the thickness of it. The shift-levers were much less demanding in force than the Enzo I had before and had more of an "instant response" - like action (very short travel to trigger), were much larger and even had a more ergonomic location behind the wheel. Feedback was very detailed, but when steering against the simulated force the ff-motor provided way too much resistance to overcome - because of it's long gearing. And with time it developed a little play.
It's most drastic let-down was the pedals: there is no real bearing for the pedals themselves which means: if you take the lid off, you've had it. Take this seriously! If you happen to buy one of those and it's still revision 1 then get in contact with logitech right away since they will wear out quite quickly!. The problem is that their design was a huge mistake since the springs are unevenly balanced on eihter side of each pedal (they use multiple springs with different force and different initial position of attack, especially on the brake). A Rev. 2 - pedal set is reported to solve this issue and logitech is told to provide rev.2 pedal sets to almost every customer who contacts them about this issue.
THE DPF USES ROUGHLY THE SAME SET OF PEDALS - so be warned!

G25
In Spite of those bad experiences with the momo's pedal set I went on an got a G25. It's been a real gift, this thing. First of all there is the rotation of 900° lock-to-lock. This means almost all types of racing cars can be properly simulated - steering angle-wise.
I could not believe how much realism it added to my lfs-driving experience. The resistance when going against the force is way, way less than with the cheaper stuff, thanks to 2 independent motors and much more direct gearing.

Then there are the pedals with excelent feel to them and a suitable amount of travel and even some progressive (and much higher) resistance to the brake. And: a real bearing for all of them. Haven't had an issue with those for about a year, now. Wheel and pedals still working like a charm - That being said: I didn't use the rig that heavily - just like once or twice a week for some 1-3 hours.
And now the let-down: the shifter-unit! As you can read in this forum every now and then, there is one of those to go wrong within half a year or a tad more time. Mine broke after like 1 year not giving me 2nd and 4th but 6th gear right away - and i confirmed this to be hardware-related by plugging it in on two seperate systems. Seems to be the wiring and/or soldering inside this unit to not meed the standard of the rest of this rig's quality.
Thus right now I'm back to mouse-steer with my G25 currently in RMA. But mind you, I'm no slow-mo with mouse, either.

Final advice: If it's realism that you're after much more than anything else: go either for the DFP or the G25...
...or maybe that "Porsche"-wheel licensed by fanatec would be an even better choice (didn't ever hold that one in my hands). If it's cheap and cheerful gaming without let-downs, maybe that RGT by TM is an equally good choice - not supplying realistic rotation, though. And you can most-likely find the DFP for under 100€ somewhere.

I personally would go for the DFP if money's the issue and maybe swap the pedals for some reasonably priced after-market ones, when time comes. IF you do so make sure the stock pedals are Rev. 2 !!!

If you can afford it go for either the G25 or the 911-wheel.

The momo racing force is not bad either. But I guess the TM-RGT would be the better choice if the finish has improved to that enzo I had.

PS.: Rally and/or GT-cars might have that extra clutch-pedal to override the electro-hydraulic system when equipped with a sequential speed-box, simply for smooth pull aways at start and *parking* practice. WRC and other Rally cars do have to be road-legal AFAIR, simply to make their way between the stages through normal, open traffic. And I think smooth starts are really usefull on some "overpowered" GTRs.

Hope this is useful to you guys
Cheers
DrBen

Last edited by DrBen, Sat 19 Apr 2008, 23:51.

...'cause i use a (nowadays comparatively low-res) 19" 5/4 1280x1024pix screen and a nice bit of viewing angle in IN-CAR-VIEW with cockpit on and no aditional hid of any of the main gages.

digital speedo thus helped me a lot to "test the rest", made it possible for me to memorise the speed i crashed at in the difficult corners. Remembering speed was my way of discovering the limit at braking-points, turn-ins, full-throttle points (out of the corner).

Or like "how fast can i run through that chicane just not crashing it? Things where the digital speedo come in quite handy, especially if you play around with gear ratios a lot, when doing/tweaking your own setups(...)

BUT:: This is about the only complaint I have out of the blue without even having tested the new testpatch (which I am just about to do, now). Seriously: everything else will prove exactly right, since it allows good drivers to be on top again without having to fear the unexperienced and "give me all that'll make me faster" fraction on the track.


So let's try her out...

See you on track

Quote from ajp71 :

If you've never driven a car before your best bet would be to get someone to take you to a big empty space and teach you the basics of how to drive, I can't really see any point in paying someone to teach you the basics of driving, it should come naturally within about five minutes.

Sorry, I forgot that in most other country there do apply different and most of all much less restrictive regulations on how to get a drivers permit. So part of my answer above should be taken as from a "German" point of view, really - obtaining a license here requires at least some time and quite some money

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

It's called Test Drive Unlimited.

Traffic patterns, retards, stalling etc. No, the tire physics aren't LFS, but you could practice starting, shifting, driving with traffic and whatnot and if not driving near the limit the tire physics won't bother you

I have that game myself and my impression is that apart from the sensation of a wrong start (i.e. stalling) there is almost nothing in this "game" that really adds up to teach somebody basic driving skills. It's quite an enjoyable game though, if you're a true petrolhead, so no offense . Most likely you will find that overall the "physics" are not accurate at all in the game, regardless of the "ultra-realistic" mode you can switch to if you made to a certain 'experience level.'
As for the traffic simulation: the other AI-cars brake like they hit a wall - i.e. there's no smoothness at all - and won't indicate their motions that far in advance like i am used to on the road. Well they even change back and forth from one lane to another without any given need for that. Another thing vital to high-speed motorway survival: overtaking on the outward lane shouldn't be allowed - in Germany overtaking on the right is 1. an offense 2. a cause that automatically gives the guy who did it full responsibility for whatever this maneuver may result in e.g. a crash (even if the faster guy is not personally involved in any crushed metal on his own). Actually the AI does not seem to follow any other rules than stopping at red lights. But that's probably a biased notice because the game is supposed to regenerate a somewhat American environment.

Quote from Monkeymike :

Probably the most useful thing I could think of doing with regards to learning to drive (at least the UK test) would be the maneuvers like parallel parking, 3-point turn and reversing round a corner.
With LFS you can at least get an idea of the car's reaction to different angles and steering input and understand the concept before you attempt it.

for that. I guess that applies to almost all modern sims: at _very_ low speeds you can somewhat get a "feel" for the dimensions of a car and also, but vaguely, how much room you'll need to pull up from a certain speed.


The Pro's for lfs I think lie mostly in another sector: You can experience on-the-edge behavior of a car that doesn't come with anti-lock-brakes, let alone electronic stability management. And you can encounter loss of grip when traveling over the grass which might give the unexperienced a small preview of what winter conditions might feel like.
I think I personally learned quite a deal on what to do and what not to do in a real driver's seat. LFS however helped me in experiencing those things, that nobody in his right mind would try on a real road.
Of course lfs cannot be seen as a substitute for real driving experience.

Greets

Last edited by DrBen, Wed 24 Oct 2007, 09:43.

...
i.e. there are so-called "driving simulators" that focus on giving you the illusion of going in actual traffic. But those tend not to focus on giving you the experience of a realistic (ally working) suspension, use of steering, clutch & shift control, etc.
Those are aimed mostly at people getting to know their limits on the "real road" prior to taking any driving lessons - or maybe as addition to that.

[(I've "played" a demo of one of those out of simple curiosity and have in fact a mixed opinion about this. It might help some sort people who are afraid of driving in the first place. On the other hand, it might as well disturb their self-esteem even further since as i stated above the "car" in those simulations doesn't react the same way as a real one and it can be quite tricky to learn how to direct that virtual "thingy" through the obstacles displayed on the screen - which might require, again, some experience in using a computer, esp. knowing the keyboard. )]

That is for numerous reasons:
One - it would take a pretty awesome (and therefor exaggeratingly expensive) effort to combine the complex field of racing simulation with an even more complex simulation of a real world road system
with ALL of its different moving-about entities and in general its all-connecting environment.

TWO - Driving schools don't want to teach you how to conquer the edge of things but to make you a responsible and safely acting driver.

Actually, the nearest you will get to border-line driving is if you take part in a drivers' safety training - unless you chose to go to a trackday, that is. (i have yet done neither of this in real life - And just like Millions of other people I didn't yet kill anyone after about 200000km of real world driving)

So there you are: You obviously did purchase a S2-license, which will now enable you to enjoy the virtual equivalent of race-driving -- and will teach you quite some stuff about car-controll in the process, I'm sure. But as for the clutch: the point of friction is at a slightly different spot of pedal-travel in each car, shouldn't be off the first third of travel-room afair from my driving lessons. Also the pedal-resistance does vary in every car. But -say- unless you realy pump up the revs (and make a fool of yourself doing so): When you miss this specific point and thus let go of the clutch too early -- you'll most likely stall your engine in the process. The usual cars you use to go from a to b won't have the power to let the wheels spin at low revs, at least on a clean and dry road.

O.K. now being late fall that can, of course, be a little bit different sometimes. But in general you shouldn't expect to learn ALL that there is in driving through practise in lfs. As far as real-world driving skills go, i think lfs is just the wrong way to go.

In lfs you always try to max out your grip, your speed and your tyre wear. You don't actually care for overall wear on your car since the imaginary box-crew does that for you and won't require any payment. Fuel consumption is as important as to simply make it across the finish line without "being helped" elsewhere. You always get a brand-new overall car, engine and tyres at the start of every race.
Actually, if money is a concern for you as much as it is for me you'll not come anywhere near the limits of your car in most normal situations and conditions. On the other hand, if you insist of going bonkers, please tell us in advance, where that is going to be. I will then leave that specific part of the road clear of my travels that day

Oh, by the way: Stick-shifting is not that hard to learn or to remember. Even for a guy like me who is stuck with a (not really that bad) automatic 4-speed for most of the time ('94 W124, 2.2l, 1.6t saloon)

Have fun.
& drive safely.

_______________________________
In lfs I am a happy little racer.
In RL I am happy to go places by car.

Last edited by DrBen, Tue 23 Oct 2007, 08:47.