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iRacing - getting closer - worth it?
JeffR
S2 licensed
Looks like iRacing is 3 to 6 months away from release. If the hype can be belived, it should be the best racing sim, most realistic, good net code, good graphics, ..., but it will also be the most expensive one. I figure that 3 years of play will cost over $500 (USA). Minimum cost is $13 per month and the average is stated to be $15 or more per month, plus one time costs for component upgrades like cars and tracks.

I wonder what the trade off is between realism and price for the average race simmer? Then again, iRacing is claiming it will bring in some club level racers (apparently they have more discretionary money than the average simmer), although I recall that with GPL, that most real racers wouldn't play any game, claiming that without the real world forces, that all racing sims are just games, and on the other hand, the cars in GPL ended up being harder to drive than the real F1 cars of 1967 (then again, the real cars had real feedback), so a lot of race simmers didn't like GPL either (it didn't sell as well as expected, although the later NR2003 did sell well).

update - sorry for posting in wrong section - I thought I was in off topic section when I posted.
Last edited by JeffR, .
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote :push forward for upshift

This is because on many auto-tranny shifters, "1" is at the bottom, "2" is next up, "3", is next up. So this was the convention for those old auto tranny drivers. In my opinion, the +/- shifters should be reversable.

Quote :bad for transmission

I've never heard of this. If the shifts occur quicker when manually shifting, then there's less clutch overlap occuring and less wear on the transmission. If you downshift before accelerating, it's less wear than not downshifting or using very heavy throttle to cause an auto-downshift. Downshifting when going downhill can reduce brake wear.
Last edited by JeffR, .
JeffR
S2 licensed
In the meantime, if players get bored, they can create "which game is most realistic" polls ... For me this was a tough call between the Half Life series, the Far Cry / Crysis series, and the Tombraider series until the latest versions of Tombraider added "jiggle", which makes it the most realistic now.
JeffR
S2 licensed
I wonder how many players here think that if NFS wins, it will stop polls like this from being created?
JeffR
S2 licensed
If the replays only store controller based inputs, then how do old replays with old physics work on on newer versions of LFS? I had the impression that the replays of LFS were telemetry based.

NFS versions 5 and before use controller based inputs for replays. If a player modifies any of the physics files, the car in the replay just goes off track and crashes because of the differences in physics. The NFS replays also store the car, upgrades, tuning, assist and cheat codes, so unless there's an actualy change to a physics file, the replays work just fine. It's also provides a means to verify that the games play the same on multiple computers (an issue with later NFS games). NFS4 also had a ghost mode that was telemetry based. After running against the ghost, a player can save a replay that shows both the ghost (telemetry) and the players cars (controller based input).
JeffR
S2 licensed
To answer the original question, what is the fascination with any activity? Some people are drawn to certain activities, and some of this is because of where they live. I used to play table tennis, which is not very popular here in the USA, but I started playing in college because there were a few good players in my dormitory. I also used to bounce trampoline which is even less popular, but I always had an interested in gymnatics since junior high school, but since I worked during high school, I couldn't participate until college it was too late, so I just messed around with trampoline.

The uppper echelons of any competitive activity may require a lot of skill, but that doesn't make it necessarily interesting viewing to a large audience. Table tennis isn't popular in the USA, and even world wide interest is diminishing. Other than Nascar, drag racing, and the Indy 500, there's very little coverage of auto racing in the USA, and even this represents a small precentage of the viewing audience in the USA.

Dirfting, at least in the USA, is a niche activity, one that isn't destined to have a large audience in the USA. Poker get's more coverage than drifting here in the USA. Bowling is trying to make a comeback with new ownership (3 retired microsoft executives), but I doubt that will happen.

Think of all the events there are in the summer and winter olympics and how many of them would you really find interesting?
JeffR
S2 licensed
As a comedian once said, if you ever get a Nascar fan angry, just run away and turn right.
JeffR
S2 licensed
My main issue with drifting is that typical compeitions, like F1GP (Japan) or Formula D (USA) consist of only 3 or 4 turns and then the run is over. But then again, I sometimes watch drag racing where there are zero turns (at least not on purpose).
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from atlantian :i thought that figure skating WAS ice dancing

In ice dancing, there is a pair of skaters, no jumping allowed, no lifts above the waist, no seperation of skaters (except for a few seconds). In the compulsory rounds, all pairs do the exact same ice dance routine to the exact same song. It's amazing that the judges don't go insane from the repetition. It's the equivalent of ballroom dancing, but on ice. Imagine watching and hearing this this 32 times in a row:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCeEr1bU5wI
Last edited by JeffR, .
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from Agent248 :If you want my opinion, racing and drifting are two different thing that can't really be compared. It's like saying figure skating shouldn't be at the olympic game because speed skating is way better.

Bad analogy. Drifting would be more like ice dancing or curling in the olympics. It should be up there with other popular sports, like ball room dancing, croquet, lawn bowling, shuffleboard, ...

A lot of us have their niche activities. Being in the USA, I've played the usual basketball, football, and some baseball, mostly before graduating highschool. I've driven motorcycles since I was 14 years old (56 years old now). I also have been involved in some "niche" activities: trampoline, flying rings (example video, I could only do double flips, not a quadruple like this guy quad.wmv), and table tennis. I'm still drive a motorycle (Hayabusa), and I fly radio control gliders at a local slope site (jr126.wmv) and at a flat field using a high start (jrartms.wmv)
Last edited by JeffR, .
JeffR
S2 licensed
As long as it's "vaporware" and not released yet, iRacing can claim their sim to be is the best. It will be the most expensive racing game ever (monthly + component fees).

Also Todd Wasson's work in progress experiment could be a candidate for best sim ever, but there's only one player who plays it (Todd Wasson).
JeffR
S2 licensed
Why was this one left out of the poll?

hnr.wmv
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from J.B. :the more throttle you use the more efficient the whole combustion process is.

Full throttle at the torque peak results in the highest ratio of power generated versus fuel consumed. However, only engines designed for near constant rpm usage (such as aircraft or generators) are operated like this. In the case of cars, the engines can generate much more power than is required to maintain speed even at 80mph. Friction losses are more than 1/2 the total losses until speeds reach between 35mph and 40mph, depending on the car. The result is many cars get their best gas milage around 45mph. Higher powered, lower drag cars would get their peak gas milage at higher still speeds.
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from atlantian :so will gearing a rallyX car with closer ratios help it accelerate faster?

Closer ratios only work if shift times are very fast (like the 30ms to 50ms shift times of Formula 1 and GT cars with computerized shifters). If the shift times are relatively long, then wider gearing works better. For example, the old record at Blackwood with a LX6 was set using a 3 gear setup, 4th, 5th, and 6th, since shift times were losing more than what would be gained by using a closer ratio 4 gear setup.

Quote :clutch - the weak link only on some cars

In the how realistic is clutch overheating thread, there were two videos made of stock cars that had weak clutches. On the other hand, most USA based peformance cars have relatively strong clutches, and some drivetrain component will most likely break before the clutch slips if the clutch is dumped in a higher gear.
Last edited by JeffR, .
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote :motorcycle versus race car helmets

There's not a lot of difference in the aperature between a Formula 1 helmet and a motorcycle helmet. The main difference between the shapes of automotive helmets and motorcycle helmets is aerodynamics; helmets for use in closed cockpits don't have to be concerned with excessive neck twisting forces when the driver / rider turns his/her head at speeds up to 200mph or so in the case of motorcycles at some tracks.

Helmets for closed cockpit cars may have provision for extra ventilation. Helmets for race cars may have provisions such as straps or tight fit between padding above the seat to reduce neck strain.

Example of Formula 1 helmet in the latter part of this video:
2003 Ferrari F1 at Monza:
mnzaf1.wmv

Take a look at the Arai, Shoei, and Shark full face helmets:

http://www.helmetshop.com
Last edited by JeffR, .
JeffR
S2 licensed
Who decided that more realistic means more difficult (harder)? These are independent qualities. Unrealistic can also mean more difficult. The LX6 of S1 is harder to drive than the LX6 of S2 patch Y, but the S2 patch Y version is more realistic.

Where's the "we're glad that LFS is becoming more realistic regardless of whether it's more difficult to drive or not" club?
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from J.B. :There can't be different amounts of torque on either side of the clutch unless it's slipping.

Even when a clutch is slipping, there's no difference in the amount of torque at the clutch plates. Angular acceleration versus angular inertia of the clutch plates themselves could cause a short period of difference in input and output torques, but this couldn't be sustained.
JeffR
S2 licensed
I updated my previous post to include the fact that Race 07 "covers" up this shifting, and actually the entire dashboard, with a virtual helmet. I used a downloaded tweak to make the helmet invisible, so that video is not what a player would normally see. Normally you can only see just above the dashboard through the virtual helmet's visor, and the animated shifting isn't visible. I wonder if the helmet view was an afterthought. If I rememer correctly, the helmet view is only used for the open top / open wheel cars, and not for the tin tops cars in the game.
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote : ... because when you shift gears it needs to happen immediately. but the animation still has to run, so it is going to be behind the physical act of you changing gears.

Here is a worst case sample of the delay from Race 07, it looks terrible:

r07obc3.wmv

Note that Race 07 normally hides the dashboard in cockpit view with a virtual helmet, so normally you can't see the shift action. I'm not sure if the virtual helmet was an afterthought or not. I downloaded a tweak to make the virtual helmet "invisible", although you can still get bug splats on the virtual visor portion of the helmet.

If the in game car's shift time is relatively slow, and the animation fast enough, then's it's not so bad (GPL, GTLegends, and a few others), but it's a bit of eye candy that doesn't seem needed.
Last edited by JeffR, .
JeffR
S2 licensed
Depending on engine configuration, a significant part of engine braking is due to movement of air underneath the cylinders, the rest is friction. There is little loss of energy above the piston, because the air acts as an energy retaining spring. With the fuel cut off on a V8 type engine, the engine braking effect is about the same regardless of the throttle position.

In the case of an opposed multi cylinder engine, if the opposed pair of pistons move side to side at the same time instead of inwards and outwards, the engine braking effect is greatly reduced.

In the case of almost all racing motorcycles, some street motorcycles, and some racing cars, "slipper" clutches are used to reduce engine braking. I'm not sure it was intentional, but GPL behaves as if it has a slipper clutch, because lifting on the throttle instanly lowers rpms without changing car speed.
JeffR
S2 licensed
Every car has an optimal "working slip angle", which is the difference in angle between the direction the car is pointed, and the direction the car is going. A "working slip angle" is the only way the rear tires can generate any cornering force. Indy Racing League (ovals) cars have very stiff sidewalls on their tires and have the smallest working slip angle of any race car today, about 2 degrees. Most high downforce cars, like Formula 1, aren't much higher at around 3 to 4 degrees. Non-downforce cars use even higher slip angles, depending on the type of tires (bias ply racing slicks have higher working slip angles than radial racing slicks).

Although it's call slip angle, what's actaully happening is flexing of the contact patch towards the direction the car is moving, combined with some slippage at the outer portion of the contact patch.

Regarding driving style, I find I get my best times when using opponent cars for brake assist and cornering berms.
JeffR
S2 licensed
Nordschleife, in spite of the fact that there's a version of it in almost every other racing sim, I still like that track.

< top gear test track

It's a converted airbase in Dunsfold Park, UK:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear_Test_Track

Other than Top Gear's usage of the track, I'm not sure it's that great a track.
Last edited by JeffR, .
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from gezmoor : ... the fact that the engines output is the same irrespective of gearing, can someone explain to me in technical terms how the clutch can be under more stress if you open the throttle full at low speed/revs in a high gear than if you do the same thing in a low gear.

It isn't. The stress on the clutch would be the same in this case. In some GM cars, (Camaro, Firebird, Corvette), there was a lockout on manual transmissions to force a 1st to 4th gear shift if below a certain throttle pressure, and within a relatively low speed range (like 15mph to 19mph) to squeeze an extra 1 mile per gallon for the EPA rating, but here the ideal was to use minimal throttle at low speed in 4th gear.
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from felplacerad :I don't know anything about the whole iRacing deal.

A mod was made for NR2003, for season 2005, called the NR 2005 mod. It's a no-cd mod version probably based on the no-cd mod that most NR2003 players use these days, because the game cost $80+(USA) at Ebay.

iFirst/iRacing bought some rights from Sierra, the then current owners of Grand Prix Legends and Nascar Racing Season 2003. It's not clear what rights they actually aquired. In the meantime, Sierra had given up its Nascar license, which was aquired by Electronic Arts. If I remember correctly, neither Sierra or iRacing could sell any more copies of NR2003, but online stores continue to sell NR2003 via Ebay and similar methods, so a small stockpile was created somehow.

Anyway, iFirst/iRacing started sending threatening letters to any site hosting the NR2005 mod. The GTP mod for NR2003 was changed from using real car names to ficticious ones (although there are mods to restore the names and logos), and if I remember correctly, it was due to a letter from iFirst / iRacing.

Because of the iFirst/iRacing action regarding the NR2005 mod, pirate bay became the main source for the NR2005 mod, which is the main reason that racing game players became aware of it's existance. In the minds of many racing game players, iFirst / iRacing was seen as more evil than pirate bay, in the case of the NR2005 mod, so it was referenced at many racing oriented forums as a source for the NR2005 mod. The link is still there, but I don't know if it's still possible to download the mod anymore, as this would require torrent servers still hosting the file.

Quote :copyright laws versus country

USA is pretty strict, and most of Europe follows an international standard. Pirating is pretty common in a few countries, such as China, India, Russia, ..., where even the packaging for software, movies, or music is cloned. In the USA, most pirating involves downloading of music files via peer to peer services. Regarding Sweeden, the loophole is related to how torrent sites work; since there is no actual content stored at the torrent site, there's no violation of copyright laws (at least Sweedish copyright laws), and pirate bay has been operating for a few years.
Last edited by JeffR, .
JeffR
S2 licensed
The engine torque is the same regardless of the gear, assuming that the tires don't spin. The main issue is the length of time the clutch is slipped if launching in a higher gear, not the amount of torque involved. In a higher gear, the clutch will be slipping for a longer period of time.
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