Well NFS has created an impact on LFS, what with the developers sneaking off to spend time customizing their NFS car collection. The worst was back when NFS Underground series were released, and the LFS developers were spending so much time on their cars, trying to find the perfect combination of paint, vinyls, stickers, speakers, hydralics, and neon, trying to duplicate the cars in the Fast and Furious movies.
Fortunately, the lastest NFS, ProStreet, doesn't have all the visual tuning junk, so expect the pace of LFS releases to be much better than it was back in the days of NFS Underground.
Fortunately, the lastest NFS, ProStreet, doesn't have all the visual tuning junk, so expect the pace of LFS releases to be much better than it was back in the days of NFS Underground.
This is the main issue, combined with fact that I'm seeing some evidence that the thrill of online racing games is gone for a substational number of players. I see posts at rec.autos.simulators newsgroup from players who have stopped playing any sims questioning if even iRacing will be enough to bring them back.
I don't play LFS online anymore, apparently it's still drawing a fairly large crowd compared to other games, but attendance is down from LFS's heyday. This is no different than any of the racing sims, and if anything LFS is suffering less from burnout than other games.
The problem with the very long development cycle is the burn out factor. If more players lose interest than new players gain interest, there's an overall decline in the total number of player (my wordy way to state the obvious). Being in the USA, I don't see a large influx of PC players for any type of game, the consoles appear to be taking over. The rest of the world isn't experiencing this, at least not yet.
As far as physics goes, the main issue for me and a lot of other players is controllabitly when at or just past the limits. It's not fun to drive if the phsyics is "all or nothing", meaning that once you lose grip in turn, there's virtually no chance of recovery. The original 1.0 release of GTR was an example of this, it was as if the game had a canned sequence to spin a car 180 degrees every time it lost grip. On the other extreme is GPL, where an experienced player can drift through every turn, controlling the oversteer with appropriate throttle and steering inputs, which is what made the game fun and difficult at the same time. The cars were tail happy, but not impossible to control, and it took some skill to keep the cars at their limits.
The main thing that iRacing has done is stimulate feedback from real racers: most race cars are controllable if driven a bit beyond maximum grip, and if the cars do lose control, they lose it slowly, still out of control, but it's a slow oversteer response, not the snap oversteer response you get from so many racing games.
This is where the physics in most racing games need improvement, skilled controllability when going beyond maximum grip and back in order to keep a car at the limits, which is what real world racing is all about (except for high downforce cars, where the downforce is set to generate understeer at speed for safety reasons, in which case it's all about the racing lines as opposed to car control, since many high speed turns are taken flat out).
Last edited by JeffR, .
As posted in the off topic thread "I won lottery!", whenever I get suspicous emails like this, or from watch replica sites, porn sites, or the occasional terrorist recruitment site, I reply using a fake name, such as "Tristan Cliffe", and a fake email address, such as tristancliffe at hotmail.com, which I created for just such occasions.
I tried an experiment with our little dog. It's pretty close, but she seems to do a bit better with the wheel, but we have to narrow the range to about 90 degrees, and turn off the force feedback, since she only steers with one paw and has to use her other paw for the throttle / brake controller (it's one from a flight type control setup). We put velcro on both to make it easier for her. Plus a special pillow for the seat so she's at just the right height.
She still isn't good with a real car yet, (don't be too impressed, I have to operate the pedals, she only does the steering), mostly because she is easily distracted, taking her eyes off the road to bark at other dogs nearby, and worse yet she still keeps trying to run over the local neighborhood cats. Here's a link to a picture of her just before a short cruise:
phoebe02.jpg
She still isn't good with a real car yet, (don't be too impressed, I have to operate the pedals, she only does the steering), mostly because she is easily distracted, taking her eyes off the road to bark at other dogs nearby, and worse yet she still keeps trying to run over the local neighborhood cats. Here's a link to a picture of her just before a short cruise:
phoebe02.jpg
So this is yet another "let's take a feature out of LFS thread"?
Assuming mouse driving is harder than wheel driving, that must mean that mouse driving is more realistic. The members of the "We're glad LFS is harder and more realistic now" club should all be using mice to drive, simply because it's harder.
The last "fix" (as in neutered) was removal of auto-cut and auto-blip feature from auto-clutch. I think this occurred because the developers spent so much time on making a clutch that could overheat, then realized too late that auto-cut and auto-blip would prevent many players from experiencing clutch burnt out that the developers spent so much time on, so they just had to remove auto-cut and auto-blip so that many players could "enjoy" the experience of clutch failure they otherwise would have missed out on if auto-cut and auto-blip had been left in the game.
My old momo racing wheel rarely got used, and then the buttons started getting bouncy so I threw it away, and I'm sticking with my trusty twin joystick setup (if twin sticks on a transmitter are good enough to deal with the truly difficult to control radio control helicopters, then it's more than good enough for a game). If a joystick was good enough for Wolfgang Woeger to achieve a GPL Rank of -78, which is very good, then a joystick is good enough for me.
For those of you wanting to wheel and pedals to be a requirement, then sign up for iRacing, because that's what they did.
In the mean time, I've almost completed my joystick scripting for a complete time trial run in the LX6 at Blackwood, for a record run.
Assuming mouse driving is harder than wheel driving, that must mean that mouse driving is more realistic. The members of the "We're glad LFS is harder and more realistic now" club should all be using mice to drive, simply because it's harder.
The last "fix" (as in neutered) was removal of auto-cut and auto-blip feature from auto-clutch. I think this occurred because the developers spent so much time on making a clutch that could overheat, then realized too late that auto-cut and auto-blip would prevent many players from experiencing clutch burnt out that the developers spent so much time on, so they just had to remove auto-cut and auto-blip so that many players could "enjoy" the experience of clutch failure they otherwise would have missed out on if auto-cut and auto-blip had been left in the game.
My old momo racing wheel rarely got used, and then the buttons started getting bouncy so I threw it away, and I'm sticking with my trusty twin joystick setup (if twin sticks on a transmitter are good enough to deal with the truly difficult to control radio control helicopters, then it's more than good enough for a game). If a joystick was good enough for Wolfgang Woeger to achieve a GPL Rank of -78, which is very good, then a joystick is good enough for me.
For those of you wanting to wheel and pedals to be a requirement, then sign up for iRacing, because that's what they did.
In the mean time, I've almost completed my joystick scripting for a complete time trial run in the LX6 at Blackwood, for a record run.
Last edited by JeffR, .
Nah, it's the Romanian girls, and apparently they're fans of guys with modified 1.3 liter sedans, as evidenced in this NFS ProStreet fan site (with even a few videos):
http://www.prostreetromania.ro/prostreet.htm
Whenever I get email like this, or from watch replica sites, or from porn sites, I reply using use a fake name, such as "Tristan Cliffe", and a fake email address, such as tristancliffe at hotmail.com.
Last edited by JeffR, .
This thread really starts here, with Axus review of the game:
post #115
Every post before #115 could be deleted and this thread would be a lot better (maybe a new thread should have been started?). All prior posts could only talk about the pricing, the only "known" information about the game at the time. When I started this thread, I didn't realize how long it was going to take for real information about the game to be released.
So anyway, a link to a video review of iRacing by Inside Sim Racing. As expected, the "pros" are the physics, and the "cons" are the limited initial selection of cars and tracks. (I don't know if there are any announced cars or tracks that will be incorporated into iRacing). The subscription pricing and cost of cars and tracks is mentioned, without any negative comments, but it's clear that the total on the sheet of paper shown in the review several times adds up to quite a lot, so I call this a "subtle con".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbAC-PV3lZI&fmt=18
I question the timing of a high-end racing game. Looking at the top 100 selling "new games" from March 2007 to March 2008, the highest selling racing game was at #6, Need For Speed ProStreet, with 5.4 million units sold (it's on a lot of consoles in addition to PC). Nascar 08 (PS and XBOX) was #97, 490K units sold):
top 100 selling games.htm
I don't know how many units of racing sim oriented games were sold between March 2007 and March 2008, but it's probably not much. In the USA, NFS games sell for about $35 to $40 for the PC version, consoles even more, while the combined GTR2 / GTLegends sells for $20. Being in the USA, where interest in racing or racing games is small compared to other countries, maybe things just seem a bit more dismal here, but looking at the sales numbers, I don't think it's just the USA. The racing-sim community is a relatively small percentage of the gaming community in general, and the percentage of racing-sim players willing to shell out the money iRacig is currently asking is going to be much smaller still.
post #115
Every post before #115 could be deleted and this thread would be a lot better (maybe a new thread should have been started?). All prior posts could only talk about the pricing, the only "known" information about the game at the time. When I started this thread, I didn't realize how long it was going to take for real information about the game to be released.
So anyway, a link to a video review of iRacing by Inside Sim Racing. As expected, the "pros" are the physics, and the "cons" are the limited initial selection of cars and tracks. (I don't know if there are any announced cars or tracks that will be incorporated into iRacing). The subscription pricing and cost of cars and tracks is mentioned, without any negative comments, but it's clear that the total on the sheet of paper shown in the review several times adds up to quite a lot, so I call this a "subtle con".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbAC-PV3lZI&fmt=18
I question the timing of a high-end racing game. Looking at the top 100 selling "new games" from March 2007 to March 2008, the highest selling racing game was at #6, Need For Speed ProStreet, with 5.4 million units sold (it's on a lot of consoles in addition to PC). Nascar 08 (PS and XBOX) was #97, 490K units sold):
top 100 selling games.htm
I don't know how many units of racing sim oriented games were sold between March 2007 and March 2008, but it's probably not much. In the USA, NFS games sell for about $35 to $40 for the PC version, consoles even more, while the combined GTR2 / GTLegends sells for $20. Being in the USA, where interest in racing or racing games is small compared to other countries, maybe things just seem a bit more dismal here, but looking at the sales numbers, I don't think it's just the USA. The racing-sim community is a relatively small percentage of the gaming community in general, and the percentage of racing-sim players willing to shell out the money iRacig is currently asking is going to be much smaller still.
Last edited by JeffR, .
There are some players that like many games, not just one. I don't play LFS instead of other racing games, I play LFS in addition to other games (racing and non-racing), in addition to having non-computer related hobbies (motorcycles, radio control gliders, ...).
Looking at my license status from my LFS account, I bought S1 back on 23 Sep 2003. My main interest was the LX4 / LX6, since I owned a Caterham at the time, however I ended up liking the game overall (in spite of my complaints about S1 physics), and spent some time online. I bought S2 back on 23 Jun 2005. I'm not online as much as I was before, but I still like the game, and I'm curious as to what LFS will finally turn out to be by the time S3 is released.
It does on some race cars, depending on caster and camber settings, the type and size of tires, ... I've noticed this on some go-karts. ISI games exaggerate the decrease in caster effect, but I don't have a problem with exaggerated effect in order to compensate for the lack of real physical forces while sitting in my chair staring at a monitor.
I've corresponded via email with a few club racers in non-downforce classes and this method is still used on some cars, usually mid-engine cars which are considered evil, oversteering monsters. One guy mentioned that driver induced understeer was the only way to keep his spec class Clio facing forwards when pushed to the limits.
Although induced understeer would seem like it would cook the tires, it doesn't, as the understeer isn't so extreme to be actually sliding the tires. One way to describe it's usage is as an alternative to trail braking on twitchy (oversteer prone) cars.
Last edited by JeffR, .
When slowing and turning, such as corner entry, turning the fronts inwards to induce some understeer will prevent excessive oversteer. By modulating the amount of induced understeer, a driver can control the amount of oversteer, and maintain an near 4 wheel drift.
This method of using driver induced understeer is also used if driving a low or zero downforce car in a very high speed turn with the throttle pegged. Other than ovals, LFS doesn't have any tracks with flat out high speed turns, but Grand Prix Legends and real world tracks of the 1960's had some pretty scary turns, for example, a 190mph turn at the old Spa (in a 1967 F1 race car).
Moderate to high downforce cars are setup with more relative rear downforce than front downforce to prevent snap oversteer in high g turns, and driver induced understeer isn't needed (or wanted).
This method of using driver induced understeer is also used if driving a low or zero downforce car in a very high speed turn with the throttle pegged. Other than ovals, LFS doesn't have any tracks with flat out high speed turns, but Grand Prix Legends and real world tracks of the 1960's had some pretty scary turns, for example, a 190mph turn at the old Spa (in a 1967 F1 race car).
Moderate to high downforce cars are setup with more relative rear downforce than front downforce to prevent snap oversteer in high g turns, and driver induced understeer isn't needed (or wanted).
Nascar Racing Season 2003 - the game itself is expensive (mostly available at Ebay), but the online play is free. One of the servers is named "hi grip wreckers", which is probably what you're looking for. Grip is cranked up, the cars are at max power (no restrictor plates), and the racing / wrecking is done on the high speed ovals. I haven't been paying attention to see if there are many players on that server still. Sierra semi-shutdown online play, removing the rating system, but the server list and the ability to join servers has always been up, and the chat lobby is back up again.
Dynamic range isn't desirable for vocals, recording or live performances. In both cases, dynamic range is compressed by a factor of 3 or more, to keep the volume level near constant throughout the singers range of notes (and also reduce the effect of how close the singer is to the microphone).
For feedback, the classis method is a series of speakers aimed at the performer. These are called (stage) monitor speakers. The modern alternative is earphones. For a singer, the feedback is usually loud enough to mask some of the internal sound heard by the singer.
For feedback, the classis method is a series of speakers aimed at the performer. These are called (stage) monitor speakers. The modern alternative is earphones. For a singer, the feedback is usually loud enough to mask some of the internal sound heard by the singer.
Texas (where I was born) recently passed a law allowing a person to shoot an intruder if the intruder is commiting a crime on the person's property. An example would be a burglar while looting someones home. An immediate threat of life is not required to allow for a justified shooting.
Regarding the Texas law, there should be a case now regarding a old man that called 911 about a burglary in a neighbor's house, got tired of waiting, went over to the neighbor's house with a shotgun, and shot the two burglars.
In most of the gulf coast states of the USA, the police or national guard and store owners (if they are in their stores) have the right to shoot looters during or after a disaster (typically hurricanes).
I live in California now, and back in the 1960's and earlier, it was legal to carry a loaded weapon as long as it was holstered. The law was changed when a group of Black Panthers "observed" the police during arrests or interrogations of people in their streets armed to the teeth with holstered pistols and shotguns, and ammunition belts. The final straw was when they entered the state congressional building when armed like this.
Still many states, mostly rural ones allow people to carry holstered weaspons. The loaded shotgun hanging on the rear window of a pickup truck in Texas is still legal.
Regarding the Texas law, there should be a case now regarding a old man that called 911 about a burglary in a neighbor's house, got tired of waiting, went over to the neighbor's house with a shotgun, and shot the two burglars.
In most of the gulf coast states of the USA, the police or national guard and store owners (if they are in their stores) have the right to shoot looters during or after a disaster (typically hurricanes).
I live in California now, and back in the 1960's and earlier, it was legal to carry a loaded weapon as long as it was holstered. The law was changed when a group of Black Panthers "observed" the police during arrests or interrogations of people in their streets armed to the teeth with holstered pistols and shotguns, and ammunition belts. The final straw was when they entered the state congressional building when armed like this.
Still many states, mostly rural ones allow people to carry holstered weaspons. The loaded shotgun hanging on the rear window of a pickup truck in Texas is still legal.
LFS already has limited slip differentials.
Current land speed record is held by a rocket sled, 6453mph, at Holloman Air Force Base High Speed Test Track in New Mexico back in 2003.
A more recent run with a Navy warhead was first reported to reach 6589mph, but was later found to not be that fast, so the 6453mph run still holds. There's a 11,000+ foot "tunnel" of helium for the run, sort of like clear plastic wrap with supports to hold it in place.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=J90Wq4qJMwM&fmt=18
A more recent run with a Navy warhead was first reported to reach 6589mph, but was later found to not be that fast, so the 6453mph run still holds. There's a 11,000+ foot "tunnel" of helium for the run, sort of like clear plastic wrap with supports to hold it in place.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=J90Wq4qJMwM&fmt=18
Last edited by JeffR, .
And in the last 2 releases, they jiggle, adding realism to the game, just like LFS.
They only did this for 1 or 2 seasons. The transmissions are computer controlled anyway, so rather than have a driver to push a button or pull a paddle to shift, the computer was programmed to decide when to shift. Regardless of the source of the shift (computer or paddle shifter), the commputer controls the throttle (actually fuel injection cycles), clutch, and the actual shifting in a F1, GT1, and other types of race cars.
Just a pic of a flying wing radio control glider, with a bit of extra "ballast" to cope with a heavy wind day:
hvywind.jpg
Radio control heli doing stunts; the action starts about 25 seconds into the video:
rcheli.wmv
hvywind.jpg
Radio control heli doing stunts; the action starts about 25 seconds into the video:
rcheli.wmv
Video of David Coulthard in a F1 McLaren race car at Spa back in 2002. The hairpin is a 40mph turn, yet the steering input is less than 180 degrees. For the rest of the track, the steering inputs are less than 90 degrees. The steering "wheel" isn't even a wheel, paddle shifters aren't an issue because they weren't used in 2002 when the cars used fully automatic transmissions.
spaf1.wmv
The Caterham I used to own was similar, very small steering inputs required to turn the car, with an almost go-kart like feel, something that I've never experienced with a racing game and PC controller (never tried NKP though).
Video of a Toniq R and a Caterham CSR 260 superlight (German?):
Youtube: DMAX Toniq R + Caterham CSR Superlight
Video of Lotus Exige S and Caterham CSR 260 superlight:
Youtube Exige + CSR 260
Ultima GTR at top gear track:
Youtube Ultima GTR at Top Gear Track
spaf1.wmv
The Caterham I used to own was similar, very small steering inputs required to turn the car, with an almost go-kart like feel, something that I've never experienced with a racing game and PC controller (never tried NKP though).
Video of a Toniq R and a Caterham CSR 260 superlight (German?):
Youtube: DMAX Toniq R + Caterham CSR Superlight
Video of Lotus Exige S and Caterham CSR 260 superlight:
Youtube Exige + CSR 260
Ultima GTR at top gear track:
Youtube Ultima GTR at Top Gear Track
Last edited by JeffR, .
I've read that the main advantage of the G25 is less resistance on quick steering movments (due to lower motor inertia). A street going Caterham has 1.93 turns lock to lock, for 695 degrees of lock, and with a "quick rack" 1.6 turns or 576 degrees.
In an actual track situation, steering angles are less than 180 in either direction (total lock 360), except for entering or exiting the pits or recovery from a spin to get back ontrack.
PC controllers don't do a good job of providing real world feedback through the steering, so larger angles are used by some players to compensate for this. I don't know what the issue is, but I have yet to use any PC based wheel / game combo that give the same sense of caster effect feedback as a real world car does.
In an actual track situation, steering angles are less than 180 in either direction (total lock 360), except for entering or exiting the pits or recovery from a spin to get back ontrack.
PC controllers don't do a good job of providing real world feedback through the steering, so larger angles are used by some players to compensate for this. I don't know what the issue is, but I have yet to use any PC based wheel / game combo that give the same sense of caster effect feedback as a real world car does.
Not being a true fan of first person shooters, I used cheat codes to play Far Cry (after getting annoyed with the player on a sinking boat having to hit a helicopter with several rockets sequence), and Crysis (expecting more of the same).
I still like the Tombraider series though, and they are my favorite non racing game series.
I still like the Tombraider series though, and they are my favorite non racing game series.
Thanks for fixing the title, wasn't thinking when I posted, obviously it's not the top 100 rated games, I corrected my post.
For current owners of Half Life and episode 1/3, Orange Box only adds episode 2/3, and episode 2/3 is available at much lower cost in some stores. When episode 1 was released, it wasn't clear that it was part of a trilogy (3 episodes to be made), so some players are probably willing to wait until episode 3/3 is released (no release date announced yet) before buying episode 2.
For current owners of Half Life and episode 1/3, Orange Box only adds episode 2/3, and episode 2/3 is available at much lower cost in some stores. When episode 1 was released, it wasn't clear that it was part of a trilogy (3 episodes to be made), so some players are probably willing to wait until episode 3/3 is released (no release date announced yet) before buying episode 2.
Last edited by JeffR, .
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG