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JeffR
S2 licensed
Using the standard notation that GPE (gravitational potential energy) is zero at infinite distance, then increaslingly negative as you approach the center of mass of a solid sphere. GPE become increasingly negative at an increasing pace until you reach the surface of the earth. Afterwards, it continues to become more negative, but with a negative cosine(distance from center) type curve shape. For example, the excape velocity from the center of the earth is higher than the escape velocity at the surface of the earth.

So in this case, the connected weights move to minimize GPE (make it most negative) which is the normal situation.
JeffR
S2 licensed
Example of "takeout" mode and speedbreaker (slows down time) in Undercover, done via car ramming. Early last year, there was some chat about using weapons to do this, similar to "The Matrix" games where the player either shoots or drives the car while the AI does the other half, but I don't know if it was just speculation or if the developers considered it and dropped the idea. Also you get a better idea of the graphics in this video, one of the things EA is good at (if you turn off the motion blur junk).

640x360 wmv video:
http://jeffareid.net/nfsuc/nucremltes.wmv
Last edited by JeffR, .
JeffR
S2 licensed
Made another video in response to a request from an ea forums member, this time a checkpoint event, so a bit more variety during the run, and I managed not to head on with the traffic. As I mentioned before, the fastest cars are just a bit too much overdone (excessive power and grip) in Undercover and ProStreet. Even though NFS games are all arcade, I miss the power oversteer physics that Underground 2 had. I redid Underground 2's career mode a couple of months ago just to check it out again.

640x360 wmv version
http://jeffareid.net/nfsuc/nucreoznds.wmv

1280x720 youtube version (if full screen used, otherwise it's a slightly cropped 853.3x480 in desktop mode):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQuRfJMgsms&fmt=22
JeffR
S2 licensed
For the looks, Lemans and GT type race cars:

car.htm
Last edited by JeffR, .
JeffR
S2 licensed
In the USA, the main drag racing sanctioning body, NHRA, limits engine size to 500 cubic inch V8, with pushrods and 2 valves per cylinder for Pro Stock, Funny Car and Top Fuel classes. In the case of Pro Stock, these are "crate" motors built by Chrysler, Ford, and GM. For Funny and Top Fuel, the engines are custom built. All are similar to the Chrysler "hemi" 426 cubic inch engine, but not based on it. Again, note that this is by the rules. Pro Stock class is normally aspirated and 1/4 miles times are around 6.8. There are supercharged and turbocharged street looking type drag racers that are faster, but these run in different classes.

The less popular IHRA allows for the larger engines, up to 800 cubic engines, called "mountain motors".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_Stock

In the Lemans series, normally aspirated gasoline engines up to 8.0 liters are allowed, smaller if there is forced induction (turbo charger for example).

Although the power per liter is lower with these bigger engines, the power per weight isn't. As an example, the 7.0 liter, normally aspirated, pushrod V8, 505 hp, engine in a Corvette Z06 is lighter than the 3.6 liter, turbo charged, flat six, 480hp / 520 hp in a Turbo Porsche 911 / GT2. In the case of the Z06, 505hp is the guaranteed minimum, most make around 520hp. I don't know if the GT2's power is similarly understated. The Z06 weighs about 3150 lbs, 200 less than the 3350 lbs of a Subaru WRX STI (however you could buy 2 STI's for the cost of the Z06, and 2 Z06's for the cost of the GT2 with money left over).
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from speedway :cars wont oversteer

It's now selectable. Go to the tire tuning for any car and set it to drift, and you'll get a lot of oversteer. Underground 2 probably had the best oversteer physics, but with Undercover it's now optional.

Quote from JeffR :Regarding the storyline, it's better than some popular fictional movies. In NFS racing games, conflicts are settled with cars instead of guns, so the stories aren't exactly realistic.

I should also include that in the world of NFS, only cars and not occupants are harmed by crashes. Movie fad comparason, conflicts settled by break dancing.

Quote from squidhead :Its as predictable as it can ever get, it's nowhere near being good.

It's a racing game, not a movie. You can only do the new guy in town works his way up to being top guy a few times. Toca Race Driver 2 probably did the best version of this. NFS Porsche Unleashed's factory driver mode had a similar storyline, but used static pictures, text, and audio comments after each event.

I'm not sure how to tie in a good story into a game based on racing, pursuits, and crashing. EA probably doesn't want to go back to the bad boy image from Underground now that pursuits are back. In High Stakes, the pursuits were separate from the career mode, and the player can choose to be the cop or the evader. Except for Porsche Unleashed's factory driver, the older NFS games didn't have a storyline, but I don't know how well a new NFS game would sell if there wasn't some semblance of a storyline.

So for myself, I don't expect much of a story line. It's similar to the old game 7th guest, where you solve a series of puzzles completely unrelated to the storyline in order to view clips that take you through the storyline.

For me, the rest of the game was OK, the free roam area includes over 100 miles of road, and there is a huge amount of scenery, although I think Underground 2's night time views, especially overlooking the city from up high in Jackson Heights were probably the best for any NFS game. The bloom effects were overdone, but they can be turned off. The visuals are good, but cause some stuttering at high speeds on some tracks on some computers.

There is a test car that can be unlocked with a savegame editor, the Audi R8 speedtest, that quickly reaches well over 350 mph, up to 400 mph depending on tuning, and I assume it was used to test for stuttering, but apparently not at all tracks. Nothing else in the game, not the AI, cops, or the helicopter can keep up with this car, which quickly leaves them behind, so the so called "rubberbanding" effect is more of a high level of performance of the AI as opposed to being tied to the players actual speeds. Underground 1 was the only game to have an issue where the adaptive AI would actually exceed the players performance at a few events, but there were workarounds (using a car with a low top speed, such as a Miata with stock transmission).
JeffR
S2 licensed
I've always liked the NFS games, but with the last 2, ProStreet and now Undercover, the fastest cars seem more like Star Wars swoop racers than cars because of the hyper speed and grip. I made an example youtube video. Click on the lower right icon box to see the video in full screen mode (1280x720p).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8mHZ_j6MQo&fmt=22

or a more reasonably sized, not overly compressed, 640x360 half size windows movie version:

http://jeffareid.net/nfsuc/nucsbbznds.wmv

I'm not sure why but the hi-def videos for games don't look as good as the real life based ones, or perhaps youtube is cranking up compression factors on the newer ones. An example to compare with from an older video I submitted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUVRUMc7DP8&fmt=22

Regarding the storyline, it's better than some popular fictional movies. In NFS racing games, conflicts are settled with cars instead of guns, so the stories aren't exactly realistic.
Last edited by JeffR, .
JeffR
S2 licensed
Note that the hi-def youtube videos play in a cropped 853.333 x 480 mode (852x479), until you click on the full screen icon box in the lower right corner of the window. Then you'll see a full screen 1280x720p video. Then press escape or the lower right icon box with an x in it to return to desktop.

An example video of my radio control glider at a slope site (note the source was Sony HC1 camcorder video converted into a WMV9 video by Adobe Premiere Pro CS3):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUVRUMc7DP8&fmt=22

The download rate depends on the time of day, it's slowest during USA evening hours, around GMT +2:00 to GMT +6:00.

For games I want to upload in hi-def, I record the older ones that only recognize 4:3 format, in 1280x960 and crop them. For newer games that are widescreen aware, I record them in 1280x720. On my CRT monitor, the picture will be squished during game play (I could adjust the vertical size on the display, but I don't bother), but the video will end up fine.
Last edited by JeffR, .
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from JeffR :Is it possible to induce understeer by steering inwards on this car?

Quote from JeffR :It wouldn't hurt to at least try it during a test session to see what happens.

Quote from Shotglass :it probably would since unlike your videos particularly the lfs one you wouldnt be able to turn the wheel 540° in less than a second in real life which will most likely lead to some very nasty oversteer

Note that some real life club racers use this method. The guy with the Clio stated he could just steer inwards a bit more than normal and it would stabilize the Clio in high speed turns, resulting in a drift response instead of an oversteer response, more of a preventive measure than a recovery method. The issue for the Clio was that when setup to turn well in slower turns with paritial throttle, the Clio tended to become oversteer prone in higher speed with heavier throttle, or some bumpy turns. Using induced understeer stabilized the Clio in these situations, so he didn't have to compromise with a less oversteer prone setup.

I've tried induced understeer in a deserted parking lot in a few real cars, my version of quality time on a skid pad. I'd hold the steering inwards at a fixed position, then gradually increased speed until the car was at the limits, then tried variations of steering and throttle inputs. Once at the apparent limits, I found I could steer inwards a bit more without much noticable difference, but just a bit more beyond this and induced understeer became evident. Once the car was in understeer mode, I could modulate the throttle more without inducing oversteer.

Anyway, getting back to iRacing, induced understeer worked well with Grand Prix Legends, so it would be worth a shot to test this with iRacing's physics engine, perhaps just steering an extra bit inwards in the car will help stabilize it, as mentioned by the guy that raced the real world Clio.
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from JeffR :Is it possible to induce understeer by steering inwards on this car?

Quote from Shotglass :I dont see that silly technique in either of the real videos.

Those cars don't have that problem. However I've read threads at real racing forums and a few guys use this technique for twitchy cars, such as a Clio or a NSX. Try driving just about any car on a high speed oval without significant rear downforce and the threat of oversteer is there (because the car is at full throttle just to maintain speed in a high speed turn). There's a balance point where steering inwards can be used to keep a car essentially drifting and not understeering or oversteering. By steering a bit inwards, if the car starts to oversteer, the fronts being turned inwards, end up with a higher still slip angle, and depending on the setup, the front end slides along with the rear, maintaining a drift instead of oversteering.

The issue here is iRacing though, and since it's engine is based on the same one as Grand Prix Legends where induced understeer works well, it may work better in iRacing than it would in the real world equivalent of those same cars. It wouldn't hurt to at least try it during a test session to see what happens.

Quote from Liff :interests of spec series ... there's a big difference between tracks done with laser scanning and those done without it.

I don't know when there is a point of diminishing returns. Is laser scanning versus GPS sampling that much better, especially over time and after a track has been repaved for a new season?

Quote :I'm sure the users will appreciate car modeling based on real data, too.

Where does this real data come from? How many cars have most of the moving components instrumented and data captured during actual runs other than Formula 1 teams with their multi-million dollar budgets?
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from spanks :I countersteer and it snaps the other way. I don't countersteer and it still snaps the other way.

Is it possible to induce understeer by steering inwards on this car? I made a video of an extreme example of this in LFS with the LX6 back in the S1 days, and this same method worked well in Grand Prix Legends, which is the base engine used for iRacing, and it also is used in real life for some twitchy cars, mostly to counter lift throttle oversteer, or throttle induced oversteer during very high speed turns. Again this video is an extreme example, to make it obvious what's going on:

http://jeffareid.net/lfs/lx6.wmv

This one, from GPL, is more subtle, some induced understeer during corner entry, counter steer on corner exit, and a bit of induced understeer on the high speed turn on the back half of the track. Dual view so you can see the cockpit and the chase view at the same time:

http://jeffareid.net/gpl/gplrngs.wmv

Corvette ZR1 at Norschleife, lots of steering inputs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66L36oDfKn8&fmt=18

ACR Viper at Nordschleife (the ACR has significant downforce, up to 1000lbs):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4Xoo5hmU9U&fmt=18
Last edited by JeffR, .
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from southamptonfc :Scirocco - 0-60 - 7.2 seconds. 197bhp 1296kg 152 bhp/tonne FWD - I find the idea of driving in a simulated version of VWs latest posh mums shopping mobile not very exciting.

LFS is just getting back to it's S1 roots back when LFS stood for Live For Slow.

Quote from tristancliffe :Brake pad material won't burn until four figure temperatures.

Except for ones made out of the same material as clutches in LFS since patch Y.

Quote from MrPDR :The simple fact of the matter is, little to no car manufactures want their products on a 'sim' like LFS. If you were the owner of lets say, Audi. Would you want your car in such a game?

NFS manages to get quite a few brands, including Audi in their games, and what kind of reputation do the NFS games have?
Quote :The VW Scirocco is a step up from the fake cars that are on LFS

Isn't the BMW Sauber F1 a real race car?

Quote from tristancliffe :There is nothing ABS can do that decent driver training couldn't do better.

Modern ABS systems reduce braking on individual tires that are rotating significantly slower than the average speed of the other tires. No driver can match this kind of computerized braking system. I'm not aware of any racing team that chooses to not to use use ABS and ESC (electronic stability control) when it's allowed in that event, so it must provide some advantage.

Quote from ajp71 :If the issue is the car is oversteering you want to steer less, or the other way. This should come completely naturally.

Depends on the cause of the oversteer. If it's lift throttle (engine braking on a RWD) induced oversteer, the driver has the option to steer more and induce understeer at the front to balance out the car. If the driver has to brake, then countersteering isn't an option. Apparently Jackie Stewart mention using this method back in the 1960's in the Formula 1 cars before downforce. It's not natural, but it does work for some cars.

Quote from Jakg :How you can say ABS isn't good is ludicrous, though - ABS modulates each wheel individually

Agree with you here.
Quote :Not so keen on ESP

The stability control usually allows quite a bit of oversteer, at least so on sports cars like the Corvette Z06, to the point that drivers prefer the stability control on when racing it when it's allowed. It can be shut off in the Z06, and I thought it could be shut off on most sports cars.

Quote from gezmoor :Apart from torque steer, I don't see any real inherent issues with FWD cars. There is nothing inherent in RWD that actually makes such a car better handling or faster around a track.

Since the front tires steer, they generally have a higher working slip angle than the rears, so that leaves the rear tires with some extra traction for propelling the car. Even all wheel drive has it's limits once power to weight ratio reaches a certain point in race cars.
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from Liff :At what level of racing do you estimate that teams have the financial means and other resources to build specialized simulators / special equipment and develop their own physics models? In the AutoSimSport article Chris Hoyle mentioned that "automotive manufacturers and high-budget teams" would have their own vehicle models, and it seemed like iR and rFactor-Pro are tapping into quite a bit different segments within the real world racing scene.

That same AutoSimSport article also mentions the ARC team simulators, which is the specialized equipment (hardware). Then a product like rFactor Pro is used to provide the software, using modified physics (to match the team's car specs) or a new physics model. Obviously this costs a lot more than iRacing, but it's not prohibitive for a lot of racing teams (well at least until this year when the economy went bad).

If all a driver wants it a general knowlege of a car and track combination, rFactor is currently a better choice because of the sheer number of tracks and cars available via add-ons. The actual physics isn't that critical, because no sim is that accurate, one glaring bit of evidence of this is that the braking points for real car and track combinations rarely end up being the same in any consumer type simulator, including iRacing.
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote :IRacing ... For real race teams, then it will become the tool of choice for practice, saving them thousands of dollars. This is who iRacing wants as customers, all the members from SCCA and other large race organizations, to the little grassroots racing groups.

Race teams use specialized simulators for track testing offline, which iRacing doesn't provide. Racing teams use special equipment and sometimes modify or make their own physics models, and those teams want something like rFactor Pro, a professional and customizable version (teams can tweak or replace the physics model) of rFactor, or the equivalent, meant for that purpose.

Although you'll find real racing drivers participating in iRacing events, it's an individual thing, iRacing is not a tool for racing teams.
JeffR
S2 licensed
With IE7 on my system I see a window size of 852 x 479 (504 if you include the progress bar), probably a slightly cropped 853.333 x 480. One of my videos was automatically updated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUVRUMc7DP8&fmt=22
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from jwardy :Tomb raider 3- london trainstation mission , never completed it ...

There are walkthroughs now. I'm guessing you were stuck either finding the penny from a vending machine or where to use it in the turnstyle area above, or possibly stuck trying to sprint to a doorway before getting hit by a train. One of these was makeable, the other was just a wind up.

Quote from evilgenius :Tomb Raider 2 : Venice mission I think

I'm guessing the timed run in the boat near the end. Lara had to raise 2 gates to clear the shortest path for this. Or you could simply avoid triggering the timer by swimming out back under the gate you entered in, instead of exiting via the ramp.

Quote from evilgenius :Oh .. with NFSU on his pc was lol... There was one race which was unreal to beat.. But home on my pc... I cleared it with 2nd try

Most likely race 103, the 7 lap race at Terminal Reverse. Due to a bug in catch up mode, the computer opponent cars were programmed to stay in front of your car by about 1 second or so, making it impossible to win unless you constantly blocked or the AI crashed near the end. It turned out that the catch up speed was limited by the top speed of the players car, so by using a car with a low top speed, but otherwise fast, would do the trick, for example a maxed out Miata with a stock transmission. The alternative was a trainer that freezed the game clock, which generally caused the AI cars to crash.

Quote from LFSn00b :Need For Speed Prostreet - Patch 1.1. I was only interested in the McLaren F1 car they done. Basically it was unbuyable as it was hidden but patching it with SAAM's thing made it buyable so i bought it, tuned it and drove it in the nevada speed challenge track.

McLaren F1, and actually most cars, were terrible for the Nevada Speed Challenge run. However the Porsche 911 Turbo could do the entire run flat out without lifting on the throttle, if you used stock suspension, which kept the car from going airborne. The McLaren F1 was the fastest grip car (almost too fast). Video of the 911 at Nevada, almost too easy: http://jeffareid.net/nfsp/nps911.wmv. Then again, the slow mo, extended crash sequences at Nevada were kinda of cool. In the second part of this video, my Zonda goes for a ride on top of another Zonda. Note that ProStreet doesn't have replays, so it was just sheer dumb luck that I happened to be doing video captures of crashes when this happened. http://jeffareid.net/nfsp/npcznd.wmv


As for myself, frustrating moments in PC games, like near the end of Far Cry can be solved with a trainer. My worst experience was with an old Atari 800 game called PitFall 2, a timed sequence where in order to collect the rope, you had to run and jump a series of platforms, while bats came at you requiring you time the jumps to go over the bats as well as the gaps, with a somewhat inconsitent controller trigger. I finally got past this, but it took hours. I eventually patched the game to disable the collsion dectection, my first game hack, which I gave to my neices when they played the game.
Last edited by JeffR, .
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote :Hot Pursuit 2 ... servers

Hot Pursuit 2 uses GameSpy and last I checked it was still running HP2. The EA servers for Underground and older games were shutdown, but a few players still play High Stakes and Porsche Unleashed via a player created package called IPLounge that includes chat, online races, and stats, utilizing the TCP/IP features of those games. The Undergrounds didn't have TCP/IP play, and as far as I know, no one's made a TCP/IP to Lan emulator for the Underground games.

NFS PC online play reached a peak of 1000 players online during the first week of the Underground 2 demo back in late 2004. Since then it's greatly dwindled, partly because all the different consoles took away the PC player pool.

A bit off topic, but I was sad to see the Nascar Racing Season 2003 servers shut down a few months ago, even though I only tried it online for about 2 or 3 months. Live For Speed online play is still doing very well though.

Quote :tuner games

Only NFS Underground 1 and 2 could be considered tuner games. The NFS games before and after are about exotic and/or high end cars, and although there are still visual upgrades, they're minimal compared to the Underground series.
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from Velociround :My favorite NFS was NFS Hot Pursuit 2

Being a PC player, Hot Pursuit 2 was a "low" for me. It was the first NFS to drop both in car views and saveable replays. The post race replays didn't have adjustable cameras, you only saw an exact repeat of the view(s) you used during a race. The engine sounds of the fastest cars McLaren F1, and the Mercedes CLK GTR were awful (on the PC). The PC physics was also bad, apparently a bit too oriented to consoles with digital controllers, fastest lap times were had by pulsing controllers (wheels or joysticks), as if trying to emulate digital controllers with analog controllers. The cars bogged down at the slightest hint of a turn, making even the high powered cars seemed underpowered, unable to maintain speed even in 1st gear in a mild turn. The graphics for the scenery were a step up from previous games, but you needed a relatively fast computer for the time to enjoy them.

The older NFS games had more features, with High Stakes having the most. Day + night + weather options for all tracks. Saveable replays and ghost (shadows), and replays made from ghost runs would show both the current car and the ghost car (previous run).

The later games mostly improved the graphics, with Underground 1 being a huge step up graphically, although the tracks were short. Underground 2 had a large number of tracks and modes, a big improvement, and was the last NFS to have replays of any kind (post race only, but changeable camera view). Most Wanted (sort of a Hot Pursuit 3), brought back the exotics and pursuits. Carbon was good but it's career mode was relatively short. ProStreet used real race tracks, but a lot of players didn't like the change to track racing and no free roam. Undercover stepped up the graphics another notch, although some of the effects are annoying (to me), but at least these can be turned off. The storyline wasn't the greatest, but it was better than a lot of movies.

For me, the most impressive part of Underground 2, Most Wanted, Carbon, and Undercover, is the sheer size of the environments, lots of streets, background objects, basically both good quality and quantity in the scenery.
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from JeffR :Underground 2 had the most realistic physics of the series

Quote from Shadowww :One car game?

I meant that the Toyota Corolla was the dominant grip car in the game. There are plenty of cars, but they aren't competitive in grip mode in Underground 1. The 240SX was the best drag racing car, and various cars could be used for drift mode, so "one car" game was referring to the fact that the dominant grip car was significantly faster than the 2nd fastest grip car.

Quote from Scatter :The ricing in that game sure is realistic.

Nothing compares to extreme ricing as done in the Pacific Rim:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Mz018yf1-M&fmt=18

http://tanetane92.web.infoseek.co.jp/20050116tas2.html

However some guys in Romania did a pretty good spoof of ProStreet. Apparently Romanian chicks dig guys in their modified 1.3 liter econoboxes. Nothing compared to the ricers above, but still pretty good. Click on the first picture to see the video:

http://www.prostreetromania.ro/prostreet.htm
Last edited by JeffR, .
JeffR
S2 licensed
Rather than shutting down NFS, apparently EA want's to cut back on EA Black Box, in spite of the fact that Black Box games have sold 55 million copies, starting with NFS6 - Hot Pursuit 2, and one non NFS title, Skate, and hand development over to Criterion.

I'm not so sure about this. EA is complaing about sales during a recession? EA stated sales of ProStreet were dissappointing, but it sold over 5.5 million copies, the #6 top selling game and #1 selling racing game during the period from March 2007 to March 2008 (5.4 million copies during this time). I think EA got spoiled with 9+ million sales of Underground 2 and Most Wanted.

EA Black Box took over the NFS series back with NFS6 - Hot Pursuit 2. Prior to that different developers made the NFS games. The original NFS was made by the same guys that made the older still game called Stunts. I don't know about NFS2 or NFS2SE. NFS3 - Hot Pursuit (1) and NFS4 - High Stakes were made by the same group. NFS5 - Porsche Unleashed was made by another group, but EA bought the game and put a NFS label on it.

The current release, Undercover was getting panned by the critics for a weak storyline, but it's no worse than some popular movies. In racing games, conflicts are settled with cars instead of guns, given that, the storylines of the last 3 NFS games are OK.

One trend in the last two NFS games, is that the cars are getting too far over the top in terms of performance, more like driving Star Wars swoop racers than cars, example video from Undercover. This particular track is mostly open turns and only has two braking zones, but you'll get the idea. The pause at about 47 seconds to the video is due to using fraps to capture live video:

http://jeffareid.net/nfsuc/nucsbbz06.wmv

> all of the cars end up the same after upgrades:

This simply isn't true an any of the NFS games. There are usually one or two dominant cars for each tier level (if there are multiple tiers). For NFS1 - It's the Lamborghini Diablo (ignoring the bonus Warrior PTO). For NFS2 - The McLaren was the fastest car, except for Mystic Peaks where the Lotus GT1 was faster (ignorning the bonus FZR2000). For Hot Pursuit, it was the Mercedes CLK GTR (no Mclaren in this game). For High Stakes and Hot Pursuit 2, the McLaren F1 GTR or the Mercedes CLK GTR are the fastest cars, depending on the track. For Porsche Unleashed, it was the GT1 for all but Corsica where the 1995 911 Turbo was fastest. For Underground 1, it was a mix, but the RX7 was generally best overall. For Underground 2, the Corolla (of all things) was in a class by itself. For Most Wanted, it's the Carerra GT. For Carbon, a trade off between Z06 and Audi Lemans Prototype. For Undercover, the tier 1 cars are a good mix. The Z06 best overall, with the Zonda better at some tighter tracks, and the Veyron at a few high speed tracks.

One issue now facing EA, is the fans of the exotics versus fans of the tuners, and EA switching back and forth, following the fads. Take a look at this intro video made from High Stakes, 3 versions before the Underground 1 tuner oriented game:

http://jeffareid.net/nfs4/n4intro.wmv

Obviously no one will confuse NFS as a racing sim, but Underground 2 had the most realistic physics of the series, that included throttle induced oversteer. It was mostly a one car game (the Corolla), but it made up for it with huge free roam area, great background views, and a large number of tracks and multiple modes that used both street and track courses.

What most are now asking for is something similar to Underground 2, free roam with a purpose (driving to events), and pursuits with the cops. My guess is this will probably happen in the next NFS game.

One thing mentioned in the Marc DeVillis video interview at the official web site is that Undercover has 400 tunable parameters for each car. With this kind of capability, EA Black Box has the ablity to make a very good sim racer, but it will never happen. Another thing mentioned is Black Box spent a lot of time on maintaing a stable camera view (if using chase view which I don't use, mostly a console thing) while the player peformed stunts like 360's or 180's going into reverse, but the actual game play in Undercover doesn't include any events that focus on these stunts. This only existed with Porsche Unleahsed, where there a was a factory driver mode that included peforming stunts like 360s and 180's on a course layed out with cones.

I've been playing the NFS series since NFS2 (except motor city online), and recently got NFS1-SE earlier this year to check it out. My first racing sim was Grand Prix Legends, and my experience with the arcade physics of the Mercedes CLK GTR in High Stakes actually helped a bit, in that both cars had a high working slip angle and had to be steered a bit early to allow time for the cars to yaw inwards and start turning. I wasn't great, but I did manage a negative GPL rank in about 6 months of actual play. I've since bought most of the sim oriented games, F1 Challenge 99-02, Live For Speed, rFactor, and the GTR series, although now I'm more of a casual racer, player of many games, but master of none.

I have a collection of videos of various racing games, to give non-owners an idea of what these games are like:

http://jeffareid.net/rgv.htm
Last edited by JeffR, .
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from rjm1982 :Don't forget, iRacing was a $20,000,000 investment from the beginning. The "dues" recoup real life costs of continued development, of servers, of staff.

The amount involved isn't an issue. EA and other game makers typically spends $5 to $15 million per year per game they release. It's not an issue because there's a huge market for these games that sell from 5 million to 10 million copies (such as the NFS series, or more so the Sims and some of the first person shooters).

However sim-oriented racing players are a niche market, and with the higher pricing, iRacing is only going to get a fraction of this market.
They're hovering at around 6,000 players when they probably need around 30,000 to 40,000 to break even. I don't know if or when this will happen. Perhaps with more content and more advertising, they'll acheive a working business model, but my guess is that it will undergo a drastic change during it's first 3 years of operation.
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from Liff :I think current force feedback technology gives a very good presentation of the real life feel of steering.

But the real life feel of steering offers little in terms of feedback, such as if the tires are at the limits, so typically games compromise realism in steering and audio feedback to compensate for the lack of forces felt in a real car.

Quote from rjm1982 :If you don't own/race in iRacing, why do you complain/point out weaknesses that you know nothing of.

We can read what others have posted else where such as the newsgroups.

Quote :And if you were to peruse the official iRacing forums, you would find that the shortcomings are discussed en mass. There, though, we have the direct ear of the development team, so it serves a purpose. Complaining/Blasting/Bashing/Whatever here serves no purpose but to taint the image of the sim.

Except that iRacing has choosen not to allow public access to their forums (somewhat unusual) so for non iRacing renters, public forums like LFS and newgroups like RAS (rec.autos.simulators) are the only viable alternatives. Hopefully someone at iRacing monitors the external stuff.
JeffR
S2 licensed
So what is iRacing's target audience? How many serious and skilled sim racers are there? How many players can produce lap times within 1% to 2% of top sim players like Greger Huttu (last I read, he won 44 of 45 events he entered)?

If a player isn't one of the highly skilled players, than that player ends up with other similarly skilled players, but that bunches up the cars which leads to more incidents, so those players never get a chance to move on to the better cars.

I've also read statements that iRacing is targeting some real life racers, but skills in one activity seldom translate into skills in another activity even when those activities are similar, in this case real racing versus sim racing. A lot of real life racers aren't going to turn out to be fast sim racers (or vice versa). The track learning experience from a track in iRacing isn't going to help out much more than a similar track from rFactor.

iRacing in it's current form is targeting a relatively small percentage of an already small (compared to other games) niche market, sim racers. I don't see it surving with it's current business and content model for more than 3 years.
JeffR
S2 licensed
I don't see iRacing as much of a threat to any racing game. There are perhaps a bit over 6,000 members, some of whom have already left? Pretty small numbers compared to the number of purchasers of other games.

If I recall correctly, iRacing would need something like 30,000 to 40,000 players in order to pay off the initial investment in a reasonable time, like 2 or 3 years. I made at post at RAS where I guestimated that iRacing with it's current subscription oriented business model and pricing would last maybe 3 years, and then some drastic change in the business model would occur.

If anyone could be a threat to racing sims, it's Electronic Arts. They have a huge budget and staff involved with the NFS series, and the current Undercover physics engine has over 400 adjustable physics parameters for each car, according to the Marc DeVillis video interview at the official web site. If true, there's no doubt that they could leverage this engine to make a realistic sim, and they already have quite a few real tracks from ProSTreet, but so far they've chosen not to make a racing sim, as apparently the big bucks are to be made with the arcade type racing games. The Nascar games were console only for the last few year and didn't use this newest physics engine. Basically EA has the resources, but apparently not the desire, to make a quality sim oriented racing game.
Last edited by JeffR, .
JeffR
S2 licensed
Quote from ajp71 :Turbo and supercharging are inefficient methods of forced induction, if you want maximum output and no lag at all then using constant pressure forced induction is the way to go.

Most non-centrifugal superchargers are constant pressure superchargers, or at least very close to this.

The limit on power is related to getting the fuel/air mixture in and out of the cylinders fast enough, while extracting a significant amount of the energy produced during combustion. Even with turbo or supercharging, air speed related issues such as mach effects with compression and turbulence, and viscosity become an issue.

This seems to be getting a bit off topic. What is the desired amount of power that sam93 is looking for? If it's more than 300hp, then the car should be a rear wheel drive (or all wheel drive) car.
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