In the second half of the video, the driver applies throttle before releasing the clutch, which I call a powershift, but maybe you call it something else. It's obvious from the sound that the clutch is slipping while the rpms drop after these type of upshifts.
No. But full lock on an F1 car is barely 180 degrees (for a total movement of about 360 degrees) as seen in the video you posted. You really think that LFS's BF1 could be driven with that small amount of steering the drivers are using in either video? The issue is the quality of the feel at the wheel, plus the driver can feel the side forces.
Monaco has the tighest turns of any F1 track (or just any race track, except maybe a indoor go-kart track), and yet note that the maximum steering input used for the hairpin is barely 180 degrees. Looks like the steering broke on Schumachers car, or maybe his clutch overheated?
What is the difference here? The throttle is being pressed before the clutch is released, causing the clutch to slip and force the engine rpms down to match the gear on the upshifts, as seen in the second part of the video.
Caterham was sold back in 2006. I was referring more to the open wheelers, but here's a video of a Caterham in action, not mine, and by some apparent miracle, or more likely, due to the fact it's the real world, he power shifts and the clutch isn't overheating.
For real drag race cars normally a "line lock" is used, which just means the front brakes can be locked up without any rear brake pressure. However in this video of a real drag run by a guy named Ranger in a stock Corvette Z06 with drag radials, he can do a burnout by using partial brakes just after getting the tires to spin.
With karts, it's more of a case of force than movement in the steering wheel. A standard FFB wheel like the G25 isn't going to give this amount of force in it's feedback, and I haven't encountered racing games that simulate a high force, low movement wheel.
I have just jumped into a go-kart at K1 Speed, not having driven one in 30 years, and it doesn't take long to acclimate to the steering. However I also drive a motorcycle, and at speed, there's hardly any movement of the handlebars, just the impression of applying a counter-steering force to initiate and maintain lean angles.
[quote=Ball Bearing Turbo;659058][quote]X pattern clutch had better cooling that standard clutch[/quote]Is the clutch housing vented? I wouldn't know, other than there's a lot of metal to act as a heat sink. It was mentioned in this video from a previous post, the smaller clutch with shaped like an X:
[quote]EDIT: Almost forgot - did the Mustang clutch grinder man attempt full throttle starts right after that or not? Or did he perhaps instead let his clutch rest since he toasted it, thinking perhaps that it may not be in great shape at that moment?[/quote]Actually it was my car, and my friend was the one that drove it down his dad's driveway, forgetting that due to construction, he wouldn't be able to turn the car around, so he volunteered to back it up the driveway, while I guided. He stated that there was no noticable fade while backing up and since it was night, it wasn't obvious that it was smoking till he got it to the top, where we could smell and see the smoke. I didn't do any full throttle launches, but did just drive it away. If the clutch had glazed over, there would have been a change in the feel or engagement of the clutch, but I never noticed any. I also misquoted the year, it was a 1990 Mustang GT (the 1987 Mustang was totaled when someone slammed into it while it was parked on the far side from a T intersection). It's possble that this was before asbestos based friction materials were banned in clutches and brakes in the USA.
A list of some brake materials used through out history (ceramic not listed):
That's a flybar. It's actually two bars connnected to the cyclic control of the main rotor. The winglets at the end of the bars are called "paddles" and they rotate the bars in unison (but opposite direction). Since they apply a force to the cyclic directly, they have to be 90 degrees out of phase with the main rotor, since rotor thrust torque results in a pitch or roll reaction 90 degrees out of phase with the thrust torque due to gyroscopic reaction. The size, and weight of the paddles can be changed to alter the damping factor.
For me the issue is taking the games serious enough to do this. Based on my past experience when I did do a lot of hot laps with simulation type game, I've found that I'm within 5% to 7% of the top players, depending on the game, so I'm an OK sim racer but not a really good one.
Since dual clutches are banned in Formula one, they're stuck with a single clutch. There is fuel cutting, but only during the brief period when the inertia based torque is bascially the same as full throttle torque. The goal is to reduce the variation in torque during a shift; which means minimizing decreases as well as increases in torque during a very fast shift. As mentioned LFS doesn't model these, although the BMW Formula 1 car does have a system, unless the LFS version is based on an older version of the BMW race car.
Probably, but I can't be sure. Since it's metal and friction material the working temperature range is going to be relatively large (compare to tires for example). It could be that when cold, the lack of thermal expanion results in more plate pressure at the point of engagement, due to the enage position.
Friction is relative to coefficent of friction times normal force (plate pressure). I would tend to believe that with the same amount of friction and torque, caused by either higher pressure and lower coefficient of friction, or by lower pressure and higher coefficient of friction, that the heat generated will be the same, since it's the same amount of energy consumption (same torque, same rpm, so same power consumption).
In the video posted earlier, it was mentioned that the X shaped clutch with less friction area, had better cooling, apparently because air can flow between the clutch structure.
No I was was saying that slipping a clutch for a few tenths of a seconds, at a lower power than brakes experience, would generate less heat than seconds of braking from high speeds, but after doing the math with a clutch that slips like it does in the videos, I'm probably wrong. For example, consider the power consumed by braking from 140mph to 80mph in the LX6 at Blackwood in a bit over 2 seconds (aerodynamic drag must be helping a lot here). Assuming 1g of braking force, 1188lbs of car, that's 440hp of braking power at 140mph and 253hp at 80mph, for an average of 348hp during the 2 seconds. I don't know how much engine inertia there is in the LX6, but for a F1 car shifting in 30ms, it's about 10 x the engine power, so assuming a 1/3rd of a second shift time for LFS, it's 1 x times the engine power, or effectively doubles the engine power, so it would be 190hp x 2 = 380 hp for a 3 tenths of a second. The brakes consume 382,800 ft lbs of energy during the 140mph to 80mph period, while the clutch consumes 62,700 ft lbs of energy during a flat shift, 1/6th the amount of power consumed by the brakes. Then again, there are 4 brakes and only one clutch, and there are 3 shifts on that straight and just one braking zone at the end.
Still all this math is a moot point, in the cars I'm familiar with, flat shifting would break the drivetrain instead of slipping and overheating the clutch, but then there are those two videos where the cars clutches did slip, and LFS clutch slip seems to take more than 1/3rd of a second sometimes.
No, but for various reasons. They don't have huge thrust to weight ratios (more than 1 obviously, but less than 2), and they're fairly large, so there aren't any sudden movements.
No flybar is needed because a full scale helicopter simply can't roll or pitch that fast. If you watch a movie and see a heli with a flybar, it's a model, not the real thing.
The heading hold gyro isn't needed because real helicopters aren't flown sideways or backwards at high speeds.
Real helicopters aren't flown upside down, so they don't need negative pitch, except a small amount for vertical decent auto-rotates to maintain rotor speed in case of loss engine of power. Normal auto-rotate requires forward speed, like a gyro-copter.
I'm not sure about the auto-mix for throttle / rotor pitch (collective). The classic setup is a motorcycle like throttle control, mounted on a bar that is moved up and down to control the collective pitch. There's a rotor speed indicator, and without a huge thrust to weight ratio, rapid changes in rotor speed aren't going to happen without extreme inputs.
Still in the age of fly by wire systems, I wouldn't be surprised to find some computerized control systems in modern helicopters, even auto-pilots (dial in the GPS setting, turn on the auto-pilot, and the pilot becomes a spectator).
Click on a custom "command" for a Logitech button, and you'll get a "record" option that lets you program scripts. There are better "wingman" utilities out there, but I've never bothered to use these. At the moment, my Momo has that switch bounce issue.
Yes, set it to 200ms, and it didn't help. My guess is that this setting only works for true shifters, not buttons (the paddles) assigned to shift function. I removed the shifter from the wheel, I could try putting it back. It's old, even my joystick buttons seem to get bounce issues after about 2 years of usage, but the momo hasn't been used that much.
Exactly as it sounds. Keyboard and buttons on game controllers use micro-switches that can bounce when they get old, or if they are cheap. What happenes is the switchs make a connnection, the bounce off and remake a connection. In the old days, bounce time on a cheap switch could be 4 ms, so keyboard makers would adjust the sampling time, typically to 8ms to avoid the bounce issues. I'm not sure what the default debounce time is for the Logitech driver.
In the meantime, I just won't use the auto-cut or auto-blip if I ever go online with LFS.
Actually there are a lot of "assists" for radio control helicopters. There's a fly bar that looks like a small rotor perpendicular to the main rotor, and it dampens the roll and pitch rate of the helicopter, depending on the size, shape and weight of the fly bar. The fly bar takes care of pitch and roll. For the yaw axis, a computerized heading hold gyro is used to add control inputs to the tail rotor. When heading hold mode is enabled via a switch on the transmitter, the gyro will maintain the current heading, despite any cross wind affects due to flying the helicopter sideways. In heading hold mode, a constant (or zero) rate of yaw while flying in a straight direction at high speed just requires holding the yaw (rudder) axis control input at a fixed position, without requiring any pilot input to compensate for the chainging loads at the tail rotor. Finally there's a mixing curve for throttle versus blade pitch versus tail rotor pitch that is used to keep rotor speed and orientation constant, inspite of blade pitch that can go + or - 13 degrees on an extreme aerobatic type helicopter. The pilot controls the blade pitch to command the heli to fly up or down ("down" is up when heli is inverted).
What I meant is you can't see if the clutch pedal was quickly or slowly released.
The inertia generated torque from these fast gear changes is huge. From the link below about seamless shifters. "The dynamic torque peaks during a gearchange can be 10 times the static torque"
If I didn't make it clear, what I meant was that the heat wouldn't reduce the grip to the point that the clutch would start slipping from full throttle usage. Also I'm not sure if it's a friction issue or a thermal expansion issue affecting when the clutch engages, and where in the travel range and spring pressure the clutch is engaging when cold.
But I'm referring to the case where it's the same torque being genrated by a clutch with a higher coefficient of friction and a lower pressure force on the clutch.
Only to point out that with patch Y, brakes aren't fading, but clutches are.
OK. I really didn't expect this thread to get this long. The other thread was focusing on how the clutch overheating, combined with the removal of auto-cut and auto blip is adversely affecting some LFS players.
I only intended to question how realisitic this was, since I've never experienced this with any of the cars with manual shifts that I've driven.
However there have been two videos posted where it was clear that the clutches were slipping when flat shifted, and it's possible that with these clutches, constant flat shifting could cause an overheating situation. Until I saw those videos, I never saw clutches that would slip that easily, perhaps they're made that way to protect the drive train. I've already mentioned my one and only experience where a clutch on a 1987 Mustang GT was smoking while backing up a steep driveway, but showed no signs of progressively worse slippage or any issues afterwards (other than I expect 5000 miles of wear were done in about 30 seconds). So the amount of clutch slippage due to flat shifting would depend on the car. I wouldn't expect a peformance oriented car to suffer from such issues. Still as you mentioned, it's probably just a temporary fix until drivetrain damage is modeled.
It wasn't until Patch Y was released. If I was that into realisim, I would get a new wheel and pedal setup, but for now it's not that much of an issue. Radio control helicopters are difficult to control, and they are controlled with just two small analog sticks, so I figured that two large joysticks would be good enough for just about anything. There were a few players that were very good with Grand Prix Legends using joysticks (don't know how many of these went on to wheel and pedals though).
I have a momo racing wheel and pedals, but the right paddle shifter has a switch bounce problem, and it's a pain to setup so I don't use it anymore. I've considered buying a G25, but it costs as much as a pretty descent radio control eletric powered helicopter (these are cool), and the helicopter will come first.
To make up for all my complaining, a video of a RC heli doing some incredible stunts that seem to defy gravity, starting about 25 seconds into the video:
Most current simulators have auto-cut and auto-blip as an option so it's a non-issue for those games.
I've mostly used a programmed auto-cut or auto-blip for arcade type racers, mostly to make them sound more realistic when shifting, even though it's a bit slower on some of them. In the case of GPL, most hot laps are done by flat shifting with damage off (otherwise the drivetrain breaks). When I'm not hot lapping in GPL, I use auto-cut and auto-blip from my controller, again, because it sounds better.
Is this the right clip? It's hard to see or hear what's going on. Looks like a drag or speed run. If there's clutch slippage, it's not as obvious as the previous one where the clutch is clearl slipping on the 2nd to 3rd gear shifts at a few spots on the track. In that video, the slipping is there, but it doesn't seem to get worse over time. I'm not sure if it's a weak clutch by accident, or on purpose to protect the drive train.
What a player does offline (like the slick mod) isn't cheating. It could only be considered cheating if it was used online or to submit hot laps.
Since it's off topic, I created another thread about controllers that can auto-cut and auto-blip. Please post in that thread instead of this one about the auto-cut, auto-blip issue.
This belonged in a separate thread, so I've created this thread.
All CH USB products, joysticks, flight yokes, pedals, throttles, gamepads, ..., include a driver feature (control manager) that provides mapping and scripting. The mapping is used to remap axis and outputs to virtual devices, mostly to create a single virtual device for games that don't support multiple controllers. The scripting is essentially a programming language that can control the output of axis data, button presses, keystrokes, mouse clicks, ....
CH USB controllers are not the only controllers to have scripting capability. The standard Logitech driver also includes scripting, including the output of both button presses and axis output, but I haven't confirmed if the standard driver would allow creation of auto-cut and auto-blip or if some special "wingman" utility would be needed.
The issue is that the scripting component can be used to create auto-cut and auto-blip.. I currently use two CH USB joysticks for game play, both racing and flight simulation games. I use the right stick to steer (or roll+pitch), the left stick for combined throttle / brake (or throttle/airbrake + rudder), the same as classic transmitters for radio control cars and the same setup as mode 2 (USA) transmitters for radio control aircraft. I often use a script for auto-cut and auto-blip for racing games that don't have this feature, and now LFS is one of those games because of Patch Y. In my clutch overheating thread, I mentioned this scripting capability, and it's clear some players consider this to be cheating.
So where to draw the line, and is it even possible to detect usage of script capable controllers? What if the throttle cut and blip are accomplished via a second and third button on a controller? In this case, the player is still issuing the control inputs, just using buttons instead of axis movements, not a lot different from gamepad players.
Note, I rarely play LFS online anymore, and I don't submit hot laps.
You must have missed the part where I explained that I don't use the wheel and pedals because it's less convenient.
To use the wheel and pedal, I unhook the joysticks. I remove the center drawer on my desk and lean it against a wall, because the clamps won't fit around it. I then clamp on the wheel, and have to use a folded rag for the back clamp. I then setup a short box against the wall under my desk and then the pedals against the box so they don't slip away while in use. I then plug in the power to the wheel, and then connect the USB connectors. I then load up the Logitech software and select the proper profile for the game I'm running. I then have to restore or set the game config file to work with the wheel and pedals.
To use the joysticks, I partially open the center drawer on my desk and slip in the clipboard that joystics sit on.
The scripting for the controllers isn't impossibly consistent. I've looked at the output and there's significant variation, because the scripting clock is independent of the game controller sampling clock. I'm actually able to manually produce more consistent output than the scripted outputs, so looking for consistency isn't going to work. Because of the inconsitency, I have to program in more margin in the scripts than I would normally have if manually doing operations, so it's actually a slight handicap, but more convenient to use.
LFS is just one of many games I play. I don't play LFS often enough or seriously enough to worry about lap times, currently. The biggest recent improvement was with patch S, (tire and differential physics), between S and Y, I haven't noticed any huge changes like the big improvment made to patch S.
I never claimed that using two joysticks to control a car was realistic, it's just more convenient for me than having to bother with a wheel and pedals (I do own a momo racing wheel and pedal set, but it's mostly used for visitors).
On the other hand, LFS is claimed to be realistic, so it should live up to a "higher" standard.
I don't see an issue with these. Some of the high end wheel and pedal setups include a scripting feature. The most common thing done is to make wheel and pedal set appear to be a single controller to work with games that only support a single controller. Since all of the scripting is done within the controller driver, the actual racing game is just receiving normal controller inputs that look no different if accomplished with human input or if accomplished via scripting.
Proably the most common scripted feature for first person shooter games is a rapid fire button to be used on single shot weapons, it's not faster than what player can generate, but it's a lot less fatiguing.
I didn't intend for this thread to get this long. As my focus was on realisim, not how it affected some players more than others. I wasn't personally affected by this, but since LFS has a history of focusing on realism, this was one of those times that a feature, the clutch overheating was a bit rushed.
Except for computerized "no-lift" sequential shifters, and some newer design sequential shift transmissions (like zeroshift), a conventional clutch is present on a "classic" type sequential shift transmission, but from what I read, it's common to not use the clutch on shifts when racing, except for endurance events.
I ran LFS online for the first time in over a year to check out patch Y changes. The only server at Blackwood with players was using the FOX, so I ran my first and only race ever with the FOX, with the default race setup, joining at the start of the race to avoid getting in front of any other players, and ended up winning the race because the 1st place player, Mephisto, got disconnected on lap 5 of a 6 lap race, and the other players spun out and/or crashed into each other. Never having run this car before, I barely got my lap times down into the 1:15 range while the two fast guys were 1:11 or so.
No, only that flat shifting, where the clutch is only slipping for a few tenths of a second during a shift, isn't going to cause clutch overheating, but is likely to cause drivetrain damage. I was just surprised that rather than wait for drivetrain damage to be implemented, an unrealistic clutch model was implemented instead.
I also feel it was wrong to take away the auto-cut and auto-blip option, because of the range of abilities and controllers of players of LFS. If the goal was to level the playing field, then the time for an auto-cut shift could have just been extended a bit to compensate. This would be similar to eliminating the perfect at the limit cornering that keyboard players used to have. Keyboard steering sill works, but it no longer gives an unfair advantage. It's my opinion, that auto-cut and auto-blip should have been handled in the same way as keyboard steering, don't eliminate it completely, just eliminate the advantage.
Depends on where you live. I seem to recall that over 80% of the cars sold in the USA use automatic transmissions, which use wet clutches. In Europe, it's probably the opposite. Most modern motorcycles use multiplate wet clutches to avoid having a seperate case for the clutch.
Once again, this is not a driving issue for me, as I have a programmable driver for my joysticks, and simply programmed the throttle axis to auto-cut and auto-blip when I press the shift up and shift down buttons.
Some of you seem to be missing my point, the consequences of flat shifting should be a broken drivetrain (realistic), not an overheated and slipping clutch (not realistic). I don't like the idea of adding unrealistic physics to LFS to discourage flat shifting rather than waiting for it to be implemented realistically. One of the responses in this thread is that clutch overheating was a stopgap measure. Hopefully a future version of LFS will model clutch overheating properly, when the clutch is slippped for long periods of time, not brief intervals during a flat shift, and add drivetrain breakage to discourage flat shifting.