Quote from Vain :

ABS sucks, TC sucks, I don't want LFS to suck. That easy.

ARGH...right now LFS freaking changes the gears in your manual transmission for you, IN THE F08!!! It already has crude traction control systems and traction control!

Implementing ABS, Traction Control, and REAL automatic transmissions on THE APPROPRIATE CARS ONLY would make this a very realistic sim, and of course get rid of the crude systems we have already that modify control inputs that can be used on all cars. The driver can disable these systems on that specific car that MIGHT have those features, and or servers can only allow the use of NO DRIVER AID systems like ABS TC and automatic transmissions. Hell, a server can say which cars you can't use, it should be able to say which driver aids you can't use too.


I am almost starting to get the feeling that people think I want to implement perfect ABS and traction control on the F08 and force people to use it.....

Last edited by modenaf1, Wed 15 Mar 2006, 23:29.

Quote from ajp71 :

Please stop getting confused between road ABS and racing ABS, just like the TC systems on road cars you seriously do not want ABS, it will be far too restrictive and is one of the first things thrown out by any club racer. Notice how no serious track day cars are offered with ABS or TC?

True, but would you call the XF GTi, the RB4, the GT, GT Turbo, etc. "serious track day" cars? I would call the GTR's serious track day cars though.

Quote :

Back to racing ABS systems it's hard to know what type of GT racing your talking about as certainly some GT cars will have nice aids built in to cope with some fairly brain dead celebrities who like to think of themselves as racing drivers. Proper GT2 cars won't normally have ABS. Didn't seem to slow Group C cars that much.

True, I was just using it as an example that there are ABS systems used. I am just pushing for street cars in LFS to have ABS and some with allot of power, like the GT Turbo to have traction control. And a realistic automatic transmission with a torque converter and fuel saving upshifts as well.

Why do I push for this? Because I think it is much more realistic than having "Brake help" "throttle help" "automatic shifting." LFS already has crude forms of automatic transmissions, ABS, and traction control, the only thing is, they are unrealistic and just about anyone can drive the F08 and GTR's with these systems.

If a celebrity is on the track in a Porsche 911, sure they might get ABS and call themselves a race car driver, but at least a robot doesn't operate the clutch and change the gears for them like it does in LiveForSpeed.

I am a real simulator junkie though...I love LFS, but I think it would only get better if they threw out the unrealistic driver assists that can be used on any car in favor of more realistic systems that real cars have.

Quote from Kostek :

- in-game private messaging
- an option for not downloading helmet skins
- server option to force no brake help and no throttle help
- disable brake and throttle help in hotlapping
-- maybe even disable automatic gearbox in hotlapping
- ban hybrid tyres from road tracks

In fact I'd love to see theese in S2 final.

As for S3:
- weather! (both fixed and dynamic)

Things mentioned before, like more complex damage, parts falling off, coplex brakes simulation, etc are just a matter of time, and IMO will be implemented.


But, for god's sake, dont tell me about radio, airbags and air conditioning.illepall Someone's going to suggest visual tuning in a minute... lol

-PM's, nice idea

-server option to force no brake help or throttle help? How about remove them completely and give us real ABS and Traction Control systems. It doesn't seem fair that someone can have "brake help", "throttle help", and "automatic gear changing" on the F08 or GTR's!!!!!

Instead I would love to see realistic ABS, realistic traction control, and REALISTIC automatic transmissions. Then the removal of all these assist bullshit things. Of course only these features would be implemented on the appropriate cars and the user should be able to turn them off when he or she desires.

Also, servers then should have the ability to not allow ABS, TC, and automatic transmissions if they want to see some real skill.


-why ban hybrid tires from road tracks? It really doesn't matter IMO. If someone is dumb enough to use hybrid or knobbly tires on a road track, I think it is their own fault.


I wouldn't mind seeing these in the S2 final either.

I think S3 should have weather, all different types and completely customizable almost like in Flight Simulator 2004, but maybe not quite as advanced. The cars should have user adjustable windsheild wipers too. I think all types of weather, so people can have rainy autocrosses, snow rallies, heck if you can set the temperature you might be able to have a "frozen lake" autocross on the skidpad or something. The ability to adjust the amount too, if you want your snowy rally to be in TONS of snow, or your autocross to have a ton of water on the ground, etc. In other words, the ability to adjust the rate at which precipitation falls, and that affects the accumulation on the ground.

I would love to see brake fade as well. My Sentra has rotors that don't even fill the 12 inch wheels, they aren't vented either and it has drums in the rear. Trust me, I know brake fade. lol.

1:57.74!! w00t!

The real life car I simulated to do this with is my 1989 Nissan Sentra. I know the on the limit handling characteristics quite well, so I decided to tune it. The engine specs in the game and the torque curve is actually VERY close to real life, although, the game's 90hp sure feels a helluva lot faster than the real life 90hp. In my car I can't smoke the tires as easilly as you can in the game, and I don't think I would even have a prayer at getting the real life car over 100mph even if it were downhill and I was drafting a semi.

Attached is my LFS tweak settings as well as the setup for the XF GTi that goes along with it. It is actually pretty fun, watch out for that oversteer, and if you really want to be realistic, don't shift any later than 6200 RPM. If you will excuse me, I'll be driving my LFS real life car.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Yep. Forget about learning what to do to recover from that situation, instead concentrate on learning how to spot when you're about to enter that situation so you can lift a bit / brake a bit or whatever.

Agreed. Sometimes if I brake late for a corner, too late, I usually am able to just keep on the brakes and scrub off as much speed as possible without locking any tires, and then I just go wide in that turn, I use up more to brake. Shitty for lap times, but is safe.

When you do it that way, no matter what you are always slowed down enough for the corner even though you may have just lost a few positions and sent your lap time to hell.

If you are going too fast and just say "screw it" and head for the apex of the turn anyway, most likely these will happen:

1.) You miss the apex and fly off the track into the grass
2.) You hit the apex fine, but on corner exit you fly off the track into the grass
3.) Either of the above happens but you also get into a nasty understeering or oversteering situation and/or lock tires


So, if you scrub off enough speed to safely take the corner but end up turning late, it works much better than heading off the track.



But, I am no perfect driver and there are some cases where you simply lose it. The best way is just to keep in control of the car, don't oversteer, don't understeer, don't spin any tires, don't lock any tires. No sudden movements either, just go as wide as you have to even on the grass and gently ease it back onto the track. In some cases, there isn't much you can do, just simple laws of physics. In those cases, just try to keep the language under control so the neighbors don't call the cops.

Quote from Bob Smith :

You're of course welcome to tweak them however you feel fit. I don't trail brake myself (never could get the hang of it) and I doubt many beginners will be either. By the time you are practising such driving techniques you're probably ready for faster sets.

Ah, I am a trail braker. I let off the brakes smoothly as I dial in the steering and sometimes they seem to behave better if I give a little gas mid corner, then start to give it more gas as I unwind the steering. Sometimes as I am coming in I tend to lock some inside tires, not sure if my front, rear, or both. Nasty flatspots....


Anyway, many of these cars even when driven smoothly tend to just let loose with no warnings at all, especially the RAC, it could be a matter of just a degree or two more steering that can send it backwards into a sandtrap.

If I drive nice and smooth and under the limit all usually is well and I don't really have any tire wear problems, but I just get majorly shitty lap times.

Transitions seem to be nasty too, almost feels like these cars start to float once you get them up to speed.


Also, what is with the wheelspin? This seems a bit unrealistic. Many of these cars don't have that excellent power to weight ratios, yet they just smoke the front tires like wicked right off the line, or even if you are already moving 5-10 mph they just smoke em. I drive a car in real life with gear ratios that are about the same, it weighs 2100 pounds and has 110lb ft of torque and 105hp. To smoke the front tires (even with studdes snows on for cryin out loud), I would probably have to rev it up and sidestep the clutch. (In other words, you cant just spin the front tires) Yet in LFS, these cars, the XF GTi and UF1000 can just burn out! In real life, I forget if it was the SRT8 Dodge Magnum or the E55AMG, but one of those cars can be floorboarded from a stop and it doesn't even spin the rear tires, even with TC disengaged.

Last edited by modenaf1, Thu 23 Feb 2006, 01:16.

Quote from Clownpaint :

Just sling it in and control it. :P

Concentrate more on corner exit speed than entry speed, it sounds to me like you're just going in too fast. The setups on inferno should help too.

Thanks, I usually go with a slow in fast out approach, these cars seem to be very twitchy unless you do slow weeklong smooth throttle changes. Very sensitive to drop throttle.

I can get these cars around no problems at all if I drive within 7-9 tenths of their ability, but once you cross the limit or do just the slightest thing wrong with the throttle they step out at you.

I have no problems at all in AutoXes, in fact in LFS I do a ton of practice in there, an AutoX IMO is all about having the right combination of smoothness and agressiveness. Just the higher speed tracks like Aston can really do some nasty stuff to me.

Oh and thanks for the link to the setups guys!

Quote from Bob Smith :

richy: as a rule of thumb, yes. But some can be modified with just a few changes to last long enough for endurance racing. Cars that are easy of tyres to begin with (e.g. FOX or MRT5) may need no changes at all (if you're smooth).

modenaf1: yeah, they suck - that's why I tried to do something about it

That must be it, I don't have any problems with the F0X or MRT5.

Argh! I just typed out my thoughts on the clutch in LFS and how I thought it could get better and this damn quick reply greyed it out as I was typing, and when I was done it was like "please click on the damn thing from another post AGAIN" so I clicked it and it wiped out what I typed. Oh well..Vbulletin..heh...figures.

As much as I am for LFS being as real as possible, I don't think this is the best idea. If you crash so hard that the driver would be injured or not seeing things properly, the vehicle damage should be so extensive the car is useless. I think that is true, most modern racecars or pretty much any car that is in LFS, you will most likely total the car before injuring yourself. Not with the current damage system, but I guess they are working on that.

I guess I see it as pointless. I would rather have them focus their efforts on the damage system than driver injuries. And once they get the damage system in perfect shape (I'm sure they will), there wont be a need for driver injuries because your car probably won't be able to move anyway after a crash hard enough to cause injury.

Honestly, radio and airconditioning is neat, and it makes this sim more of a sim, but I think there are other nasty un-simlike (almost needforspeed like)things about the game which need to be fixed. It all deals with the so called "controller assists."

I think these should be dumped, as well as the automatic shifting.

Can't accelerate properly in a car? Tough, you need traction control. Want to drive a racecar in real life that doesn't have TC? Tough.

Can't accelerate in LFS? You should need traction controll to help you too. Want to drive the GTR's or the F08 or probably the XR GTI or UF1000? tough noogies.


Can't shift your own gears in real life? You gotta find a car available with an automatic.

Can't shift in LFS? You should have to do the same. A real automatic that upshifts when you lift off and has the torque converter effect as well.

I think ABS should also be offered, but I have gone over this too much already, just click the link in my sig and read that thread.





Any other things for S3? I would love to see weather, rain, snow (that would make it great for snow rallies, what about a frozen lake for frozen lake autoX's?), icing. I think there should be temperature affecting performance, tires, freezing of rain, etc. Maybe defrost and heater controls could come into play once it gets fancy? Wipers? Windsheild washer jets? Dirty spray from other cars?

How about mud sprayed up from other cars and your own car on a rally course?



Also, damage, but I already know the devs are improving this. (I'm pretty sure anyway).


Oh, and BRAKE TEMPERATURES ( affecting brake wear and brake fade!)and WEAR! Definitely.

Sometimes if you get them really got, they can even heat up the wheel and affect tire pressures as well?

Night racing?

I have been having tons of trouble with snap oversteer. Just about all the rear drive cars with the default setups give me trouble, especially the RAC.

On a track like AS Historic Rev. I can get around ok if I go easy, but I have tire noises cranked up all the way and as soon as I hear the slightest faintest beginning of a skid I know I have pushed too far.

I often find myself running waaaay wide right off the road into obstacles or sand traps just to avoid putting that little bit of extra steering in otherwise I will get the dreaded snap oversteer.

So, are the default setups real shitty in that regard or is it me? I have a wheel and everything too....

Quote from sinbad :

Possibly, but I doubt it. Obviously they aren't the most modern cars. XR styling is mid 90s stuff at the latest, and XF styling isn't much fresher. One would be lucky to find ABS even as an option on cars like these around then.

I think as long as there is a genuine real world basis for including one of these "aids" then nobody can have any complaints. e.g, if they were to acquire rights to a real car that was fitted with it, or to a race series in which they use one of them (like the various Porsche cups which use ABS).

The styling shouldn't have anything to do with it IMO, the fact is, the cars that are street cars should have street cars have. The cars that aren't street cars shouldn't have those things. Again, I will use my example with the automatic transmissions, if you can't shift gears, you probably shouldn't be driving an Formula XR in LFS. Since it is a sim, instead of shifting the manual gears for you in the Formula XR, it should make it necessary to drive a streetcar with an automatic instead.

Anyway, I still haven't seen a significant reason why not to include it in LFS. I agree, it isn't the most important thing, I would love to see things like damage become much more realistic first, but I do think ABS, TC, and real automatic transmissions should be included eventually. And definitely in an approriate way, for example, ways to disable ABS and TC (hell, maybe even make you stop the car and have it show you a picture of a fuse box and make you figure out which fuse to rip out) , and be realistic about WHICH CARS have them or not.

Last edited by modenaf1, Sun 19 Feb 2006, 20:36.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

But was it positive?

I remember the season they reintroduced TC into F1. Irvine got a good start at Monaco and when he was interviewed about it they asked if it was down to him or the launch control. He said "No it wasn't me, it was some anonymous software guy in a trailer somewhere".

Bingo, it wasn't positive, but in that type of racing I can't imagion how such a thing could be. Formula one is already too automated and technical anyway. In my opinion it is more a matter of who has a better reaction time of hitting the brakes at the right time when you are 6 feet from a corner at 180MPH.

To spice up Forumula one they should get rid of TCS, launch control, and the auto-clutch gearboxes. Hell, put a freaking ban on downforce! That ought to get things interesting, but that is a whole different topic than what we are discussing here.

Quote from ajp71 :

To answer your question at 16 I shouldn't be driving but of the cars I driven I think 2 out of 13 had ABS and none of them had TC (and it may amaze you that only 2 of them were automatic) I think TC/ABS tends to be less common on everyday cars in Europe .

I guess so, here in the States it is very common. We still have cars that have ABS optional though, the new 2006 Ford Fusion for example.

Also here, 99.9999 percent of rental cars are automatics. Want to rent a Focus for $20 to go autocrossing for a day? Most likely it will have an automatic and ABS. Which can be an advantage in some ways. In an autocross, at low speeds the Torque converter multiplies torque slightly, also an advantage in an autocross is the kickdown to first gear wheras in many manuals you are stuck in 2nd. Sure you can do a clutchless or double clutched rev match into first, but that takes more time than in an Auto, and the gear ratios for first is usually shorter than a relatively tall first gear in an auto which may keep you right in the peak of the powerband throughout the autocross.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Quotes you'll never hear on motorsport commentary:

"His use of the traction control system in that corner was amazing"

or

"The anti-lock braking system really made this race more exciting"

Actually I hear it quite a bit. Ever hear of TCS and launch controll on the Formula 1 cars? There was tons about that in the commentary. Either way..I don't think that should be implemented in the FO8, the FO8 isn't really like a full out F1 car, more like a fancy version of the FOX IMO, and THOSE cars, do NOT have ABS or TCS or Launch Control.

Ever watch a GT race or whatever? That is ALL the commentators talk about. "OH OH OH! There goes the Mazda 6 into turn 7 again! That flatspot is getting bigger and bigger making that wheel easier to lock! The Porsche ABS has really been beneficial on this turn keeping the inside tire from locking!"

Either way, it may not make it more exciting, but at least in the "normal" cars in LFS that are everyday cars. Go to an autocross for me and tell me how many cars don't have ABS.

ABS can be beneficial with very agressive trail braking when it is sometimes easy to flatspot the inside rear tire. Modulate it yourself to avoid that lockup and you just took away braking force from the other 3 wheels that were gripping perfectly.

Quote from mrodgers :

I have never driven a car with TC and only one car with ABS. That one nearly got me squashed by a truck. Imagine a steep hill, ice and snow all over it, a trailer truck (18-wheeler) stuck half way up coming my way, a pickup truck in my lane passing it but very slowly, and me hitting my brakes at the top doing like 10-15 mph and the stupid antilock kicking in. The brakes just kept letting go and I couldn't stop. Down the hill I went, totally out of my control. Couldn't do the sensible thing and brake without locking them up myself, the car kept "unbraking". I had no control over trying to slow the car down. The pickup truck just barely got around the rig as I went by. Antilock and traction control are DANGEROUS in real life as people who already don't know how to drive just give more control up to a stupid computer that can't read the situation as it unfolds. I will never buy a vehicle with either in it.

Glad to hear you are OK. In real life, if you know how to drive properly, ABS isn't the best in ICE or snow. Some ABS systems are better than others. In my mom's old Taurus wagon, the ABS system keeps the wheels right at incipient lock, on slick conditions in my car that doesn't have ABS, I can't stop much shorter than that Taurus with ABS.

Now there are some other cars, like a few Subaru's I have driven, the ABS is tuned way too much in favor of a stupid driver. In the Taurus you can slide and you can understeer when you hit the ABS because of it being at incipient lockup, but in those Subaru's, the ABS system keeps the brakes well before incipient lock so you can turn the wheel all you wanted and it would just keep releiving brake pressure. These ABS systems made it almost impossible to stop on snow and ice, wasn't even downhill either.

And yes, in snow incipient lockup or even locking the tires is slightly better because it builds up a wedge in front of the tire, you have to know what you are doing though "ZOMG MY STEERING WHEEL IS BROKEN!! IT WONT TURN!" lol

Either way, I probably wouldn't drive down a hill as steep as you described ABS or not.


Traction control can help in the snow though, even though allowing wheelspin is more effective, traction control will apply the brakes to the spinning tire and works like a limited slip diff.

If you don't have a limited slip diff your car becomes one wheel drive in the snow, whichever one spins easier gets all the power. A car without a limited slip differential can benefit slightly with TCS because by putting the brakes on the spinning tire it directs some power to the other tire.

Quote from ajp71 :

Sorry I take the view that LFS is a simulation of reality and therefore no extra aids should be added. If you can't control some cars then drive the easier ones.

Sorry, but I don't think you get what I was saying. ABS and TCS isn't about making it "easier" for someone to drive the Formula V8 or the GTR cars.

ABS, TCS, and automatics with torque converters are real life things that are found in many real life cars similar to the XF GTI, GT Turbo, RB4, etc. LFS is a SIM. If they are available, why not use them?

Now I am not saying ABS for EVERY car. The GTR cars, the F08, the F0X, those cars most likely don't come standard with ABS and TCS in real life. Nor do they come with automatic transmissions. Which is why these cars shouldn't be able to be had with ABS, TCS, or an automatic transmission.


My theory behind this is, lets get real driving aids (ABS, TCS, Automatics that upshift on you at nasty times with torque converters, etc.) but only for the appropriate cars!!!!!! Get rid of the controller assists. LFS can freaking shift your manual transmission for you in a perfectly optimized way! Does that happen in real life? Absolutely not. In real life, you can't shift your gears, you buy a car with an automatic. Want to take that car to an autocross? Tough crap, the LiveForSpeed god's wont turn your car into a manual and shift it for you in real life.

Do you all see where I am getting at? Making LFS as REAL and as much of a SIM as possible.

Quote from XCNuse :

i dont think they should force you to use them or not use them; it should be a choice.. just like being able to take off ABS and turning off TC in a car.. same thing, so why should someone be forced to use it?

I should have phrased that better, my bad. What I meant, was have and option like "rip out the ABS fuse." If you have a car with ABS in real life that is definitely a way to temporarilly disable it.

Then have the option for some servers to require that, in other words, make it so you can allow drivers to have a choice, OR make all drivers in your server NOT allowed to use ABS or TCS.

Quote from Stellios :

I know real racers use TC, ABS and all the rest, but its so muh more fun having to drive without all that rubbish.

Definitely why I think servers should have the choice of forcing users to use or not use the assists. Just like they can force what cars you drive and don't drive.

I think ABS and TC and even stability control should be implemented. LFS is a simulator is it not?

In real life many people do have the problem of ABS intervening in an autocross or whatever. ABS can be used as a tool almost, any person and even the controller assist called "brake help" or whatever CAN modulate the brakes on their own. ABS though, can modulate EACH INDIVIDUAL brake.

LFS is about realism right? In a car like the FOX, of course not! Put ABS on that and I'll be pissed. A car like the XF GTi or the GT, FZ350, etc. on cars like that, in real life I bet you they come with ABS and traction controll.

Sure, it takes some of the fun out of it, so just like in real life, have an option called "pull the ABS fuse" and allow the LFSer to disable it, or even allow an option for certain servers to make that mandatory, just like they can make it mandatory what car you drive.

Same with traction and stability controll.

Now, I wouldn't expect the XFGTI to have either of these, but something like the GT Turbo or the FZ350 or whatever. And of COURSE NOT the GTR's.

Do you get where I am going with this? Making this sim as much of a "SIM" as possible.

I also think the torque converter effect should be added as well, get rid of the automatic shifting controller assist. Can't shift your own gears? Tough..you are struck with a REAL automatic. Can't shift your own gears? TOUGH! YOU CAN'T DRIVE THE FO8! And I mean a REAL automatic that upshifts on you when you lift and everything. Have a rental car that is an automatic and you take it to an autocross, does God suddenly make it manual and shift the gears and clutch for you? NO!

Hell, even Need For Speed HOT Pursuit 2 got the torque converter effect down, the cars drove like magic carpets, but at least the automatic was more realistic than LFS.

For those of us who use LFS with the normal cars and in autocrosses and such, I would like to see this get as real as posible. Afterall it is a SIM isn't it?

I can't really see any reason why NOT to implement features that make a SIM more of a SIM.

I know what you mean, the entire takeup of the clutch is perfectly linear almost with no real slip just right off the floor and no real "catch point." Feels like the god damn clutch on my 1989 Sentra..or any other Japanese car for that matter.