My right hand paddle was also very sharp, but I fixed that with sandpaper and polishing it afterwards. Feels extremely smooth now.
It seems like the G25 is somewhat struggled by its own success. I mean, look at all the small issues. Bad stitches, sharp edges, louder to the left (which according to some users is fixed when you tighten certain screws in the gearbox),... Looks like Chineses working overtime to meet the unexpectedly high demands which obviously isn't good for the overall quality of the product.
Why not? The 900° steering lock works the same way as in the Driving Force Pro, but is constructed a bit more sturdy. I can't recall people having issues with it on the DFP. If you really wanted to break it, you'd probably succeed but with that thought you can break virtually everything on the G25.
Why do you think the steering lock is weak?
It seems like the G25 is somewhat struggled by its own success. I mean, look at all the small issues. Bad stitches, sharp edges, louder to the left (which according to some users is fixed when you tighten certain screws in the gearbox),... Looks like Chineses working overtime to meet the unexpectedly high demands which obviously isn't good for the overall quality of the product.
Why not? The 900° steering lock works the same way as in the Driving Force Pro, but is constructed a bit more sturdy. I can't recall people having issues with it on the DFP. If you really wanted to break it, you'd probably succeed but with that thought you can break virtually everything on the G25.
Why do you think the steering lock is weak?
Then the log would show "A <> B" first and then "B <> Me". Once again, it's not really meant to find out who started everything because the real causer may not even have hit another car. But at least I would know who hit me or who I have hit. People who have raced with me know I'm a very polite driver and I'll always excuse myself for mistakes I make. I never even started a vote to kick/ban someone even though I was on frequent occasions victim of a wrecker. But sometimes I just don't know who I've hit, but I'd like to say something to the other driver (like sorry, or you could have left the door a bit wider, didn't you see me,...). I mean, there are tons of reasons why you'd want to know which cars hit each other, but I agree with everyone that it might be abused.
Yes, but that's not until after the race or you have to exit the race. By the timle you're back on the server the other guy is gone or has forgotten about the incident.
Is asking what went wrong or excusing yourself for causing an accident "bicker"? But it seems I didn't take the whiners into account with my feature request. It will probably be abused to "find" the one who caused the accident - which it gives no information about. That may lead to the usual boring and annoying discussions
That would of course be quite bad. I never looked into such tools so I don't know what they are capable off, but the last thing I want to accomplish with my feature request is getting more people banned.
Well, it sounded like a good idea to me, but if the majority believes it will be abused, it probably will be, so the devs better not implement it.
Show cars you just touched/collided with in log/history
I've posted a similar feature request a long time ago, but back then I didn't explain it properly and people apparantly misunderstood what I was trying to say...
Would it be possible to add a message to the log/history when two cars touch/collide? I don't want a mechanism that makes kicking/banning easier, but I'd really like to know which car I touched or touched me. Especially in chaotic situations as the start or T1 where I often have no clue who's who because the positions change quickly and I really have no time to look at the driver names hoovering over the cars (if visible).
Sometimes you get bumped, but trying to recover your car you didn't get the chance to see who actually did it. Or otherwise, you hit someone accidently and want to excuse yourself to the other car. But who was it? If the contact was light and without severe impact for both drivers the "Sorry" key is sufficient enough. It doesn't matter to know who the other guy was. A simple sorry will do - although some people already get furious if just barely scratch their paintwork.
But sometimes you cause a crash where the other driver loses a lot of time or places, or you end up in a crash going off yourselves. In these situations I'd like to excuse myself personally to the other driver or ask for an explanation why the other car hit me. Especially this last case seems useful to me because in close pack racing there are often some over-enthousiastic drivers that force you to go off the track but never apologize.
So all I'd like to see is just the name of the driver you just hit appearing in the log/history. It should not reveal which car caused the accident, because the game cannot possibly know. It's just information for both drivers that should make aggressive driving with a lot of bumping or accidents less anonymous. It is NOT meant to determine who caused an accident. Both drivers should realize that for themselves, but at least you would know who to address.
It may be even useful though to have this information shown to all drivers. Especially during starts or T1s crashes are frequently caused by the same drivers. It's not really accurate, but if a certain driver's name keeps popping up right after the start as the first to collide with another car there may be a strong suspicion towards him. Now it's often the wrong driver that gets accused. It happened more than once that someone started a (succesful) vote kick against me because "I wiped him off the road" even though I was at the other end of the pack but my car's colors look more or less like the person who started it...
A nice touch would be to take the difference in speed and/or done damage into account. The log could then look like:
Crash: SatCP <> Player (full hit with a lot of damage and/or difference in speed)
Collision: SatCP <> Player (medium difference in speed and/or medium damage)
Scratch: SatCP <> Player (just scratching the paintwork)
Would it be possible to add a message to the log/history when two cars touch/collide? I don't want a mechanism that makes kicking/banning easier, but I'd really like to know which car I touched or touched me. Especially in chaotic situations as the start or T1 where I often have no clue who's who because the positions change quickly and I really have no time to look at the driver names hoovering over the cars (if visible).
Sometimes you get bumped, but trying to recover your car you didn't get the chance to see who actually did it. Or otherwise, you hit someone accidently and want to excuse yourself to the other car. But who was it? If the contact was light and without severe impact for both drivers the "Sorry" key is sufficient enough. It doesn't matter to know who the other guy was. A simple sorry will do - although some people already get furious if just barely scratch their paintwork.
But sometimes you cause a crash where the other driver loses a lot of time or places, or you end up in a crash going off yourselves. In these situations I'd like to excuse myself personally to the other driver or ask for an explanation why the other car hit me. Especially this last case seems useful to me because in close pack racing there are often some over-enthousiastic drivers that force you to go off the track but never apologize.
So all I'd like to see is just the name of the driver you just hit appearing in the log/history. It should not reveal which car caused the accident, because the game cannot possibly know. It's just information for both drivers that should make aggressive driving with a lot of bumping or accidents less anonymous. It is NOT meant to determine who caused an accident. Both drivers should realize that for themselves, but at least you would know who to address.
It may be even useful though to have this information shown to all drivers. Especially during starts or T1s crashes are frequently caused by the same drivers. It's not really accurate, but if a certain driver's name keeps popping up right after the start as the first to collide with another car there may be a strong suspicion towards him. Now it's often the wrong driver that gets accused. It happened more than once that someone started a (succesful) vote kick against me because "I wiped him off the road" even though I was at the other end of the pack but my car's colors look more or less like the person who started it...
A nice touch would be to take the difference in speed and/or done damage into account. The log could then look like:
Crash: SatCP <> Player (full hit with a lot of damage and/or difference in speed)
Collision: SatCP <> Player (medium difference in speed and/or medium damage)
Scratch: SatCP <> Player (just scratching the paintwork)
That definitely doesn't sound right. My G25 is a lot less noisy than my DFP, but still I agree that it's too noisy to play at night when there's someone sleeping in a near room. However, when I take it off the desk it's actually relatively silent (but so was the DFP apart from whining sound).
Apart from when I took the wheel apart for my mod, I have been using the wheel quite intensive. I do notice it's more noisy to the left than to the right, but there's no difference in force or resistance in either direction. The noise didn't increase over time either.
I have the wheel at 720° at the moment with 100% force in both LFS and Logitech software. I have been show drifting for the past week (I know, I know, but I can't play online at the moment and I was bored as hell) meaning a lot of rapid lock-to-lock movements with the wheel, probably stressing it quite a bit. But so far it behaved perfectly.
Considering the fact that half the wheels don't make more noise in one direction, it may be bad construction quality by Logitech. I don't mean badly manufactured parts, but badly put together. User "sidi" took apart the gearbox inside the wheel and tightened all screws and apparantly that fixed the problem for him.
It's of course far from normal that one does have to fix something he bought before it works as advertised, but since you can open and disassembly the wheel without much effort and without visible traces (unless you have two left hands and no right tools) you may want to try to tighten the screws by yourselves.
Apart from when I took the wheel apart for my mod, I have been using the wheel quite intensive. I do notice it's more noisy to the left than to the right, but there's no difference in force or resistance in either direction. The noise didn't increase over time either.
I have the wheel at 720° at the moment with 100% force in both LFS and Logitech software. I have been show drifting for the past week (I know, I know, but I can't play online at the moment and I was bored as hell) meaning a lot of rapid lock-to-lock movements with the wheel, probably stressing it quite a bit. But so far it behaved perfectly.
Considering the fact that half the wheels don't make more noise in one direction, it may be bad construction quality by Logitech. I don't mean badly manufactured parts, but badly put together. User "sidi" took apart the gearbox inside the wheel and tightened all screws and apparantly that fixed the problem for him.
It's of course far from normal that one does have to fix something he bought before it works as advertised, but since you can open and disassembly the wheel without much effort and without visible traces (unless you have two left hands and no right tools) you may want to try to tighten the screws by yourselves.
Update...
I found some time to work on my mod. As you may remember from part one, there's a cable with 8 wires going through the steering axle connecting to the DFP board. In the DFP these 8 wires can address up to 16 buttons through a bit of electronics spread over 3 small boards inside the spokes of the wheel (see the last picture in part one). I *could* reuse these boards, but since I will be using different switches, a different layout and the fact I find those 3 boards a bit large in total, I decided to take the components off the DFP boards and put them on a new and smaller PCB.
Ever since I disassembled the G25 wheel it occured to me how thick the steering axle is compared to the DFP - 49 mm against 34 mm. The opening in the axle is 43 mm with a depth of 69 mm. Behind that point the axle becomes smaller. That's quite some room actually, so I thought about fitting the electronics inside the axle.
I said "electronics", but in fact it's no more than these 8 tiny SMD components. The ruler is a metric one, so you can image the size of the components. To solder this you need a soldering iron with a fine tip and more important, you need to glue the components to the PCB prior to soldering. Otherwise they just stick to the soldering iron. A drop of super glue does the trick.
First I was thinking about etching a new PCB, but since there's quite a lot of room inside the axle and only 8 small components should go on the PCB, I opted for a classic Velleman eurocard PCB. This doesn't look as nice as an etched board, but it works and saves me a lot of time. Don't forget the PCB will go inside the steering axle, away from people's eyes.
I chose the boards dimensions so it would only fit inside the axle with a tiny bit of force. This way the board is fixed and won't rattle around - and I don't have to worry about a mounting mechanism.
As you can see there are a lot of wires connected to the board (not all are visible on the above picture). 8 from the DFP board, 32 for the switches (2 wires per switch) and 2 for the status LED (I chose to keep the left status LED from the DFP - It shows when the DFP is working - I don't need the other one since it indicates the 900° mode which I won't be using).
In theory I could do with a lot less wires since the switches share 4 lines, but since I don't know the exact location of each switch yet I opted for 2 wires per switch. That gives me the most flexibility.
The PCB mounted inside the steering axle. The amount of wires looks impressive, but I probably won't be using all 16 switches, so I might remove some wires later on. I will also tear up the flatcable to make it more flexible.
Here's a close up of the PCB mounted inside the axle. Even though the board isn't small, it can slide a lot deeper inside the axle. There's a surprisingly large amount of space inside it. Once I tear up the flatcable the axle will be mostly empty again.
Well, all this may be nice but the question at everyone's lips is "does it still work?". I know the G25 mod worked with the 3 DFP boards connected, but does it with my PCB? So I hooked up the wheel again. After calibration the lit up status LED was a promising sign. By using a jumperwire I short circuited each pair of wires as if it was a pressed switch. And yes, the Logitech software recognized each "switch"!
So, that concludes part two of the G25 "Pro" mod. The only thing left to do is putting the buttons on the wheel and wiring it. Initially I inteded to drill holes through the G25 wheel to mount the buttons, but being such a nice looking wheel I decided not to do so. The new idea is to mount a 2 mm thick cut out aluminium or inox plate behind the spokes of the G25 wheel. On this plate the buttons will be mounted so their tops are about equally high as the two buttons on the G25 wheel. It's just an idea at this point. I still have to sleep a bit about it because the whole thing must be sturdy and above all; look nice.
I can't say when I will have time to work further on the mod. It may take a few weeks, though. Stay tuned!
I found some time to work on my mod. As you may remember from part one, there's a cable with 8 wires going through the steering axle connecting to the DFP board. In the DFP these 8 wires can address up to 16 buttons through a bit of electronics spread over 3 small boards inside the spokes of the wheel (see the last picture in part one). I *could* reuse these boards, but since I will be using different switches, a different layout and the fact I find those 3 boards a bit large in total, I decided to take the components off the DFP boards and put them on a new and smaller PCB.
Ever since I disassembled the G25 wheel it occured to me how thick the steering axle is compared to the DFP - 49 mm against 34 mm. The opening in the axle is 43 mm with a depth of 69 mm. Behind that point the axle becomes smaller. That's quite some room actually, so I thought about fitting the electronics inside the axle.
I said "electronics", but in fact it's no more than these 8 tiny SMD components. The ruler is a metric one, so you can image the size of the components. To solder this you need a soldering iron with a fine tip and more important, you need to glue the components to the PCB prior to soldering. Otherwise they just stick to the soldering iron. A drop of super glue does the trick.
First I was thinking about etching a new PCB, but since there's quite a lot of room inside the axle and only 8 small components should go on the PCB, I opted for a classic Velleman eurocard PCB. This doesn't look as nice as an etched board, but it works and saves me a lot of time. Don't forget the PCB will go inside the steering axle, away from people's eyes.
I chose the boards dimensions so it would only fit inside the axle with a tiny bit of force. This way the board is fixed and won't rattle around - and I don't have to worry about a mounting mechanism.
As you can see there are a lot of wires connected to the board (not all are visible on the above picture). 8 from the DFP board, 32 for the switches (2 wires per switch) and 2 for the status LED (I chose to keep the left status LED from the DFP - It shows when the DFP is working - I don't need the other one since it indicates the 900° mode which I won't be using).
In theory I could do with a lot less wires since the switches share 4 lines, but since I don't know the exact location of each switch yet I opted for 2 wires per switch. That gives me the most flexibility.
The PCB mounted inside the steering axle. The amount of wires looks impressive, but I probably won't be using all 16 switches, so I might remove some wires later on. I will also tear up the flatcable to make it more flexible.
Here's a close up of the PCB mounted inside the axle. Even though the board isn't small, it can slide a lot deeper inside the axle. There's a surprisingly large amount of space inside it. Once I tear up the flatcable the axle will be mostly empty again.
Well, all this may be nice but the question at everyone's lips is "does it still work?". I know the G25 mod worked with the 3 DFP boards connected, but does it with my PCB? So I hooked up the wheel again. After calibration the lit up status LED was a promising sign. By using a jumperwire I short circuited each pair of wires as if it was a pressed switch. And yes, the Logitech software recognized each "switch"!
So, that concludes part two of the G25 "Pro" mod. The only thing left to do is putting the buttons on the wheel and wiring it. Initially I inteded to drill holes through the G25 wheel to mount the buttons, but being such a nice looking wheel I decided not to do so. The new idea is to mount a 2 mm thick cut out aluminium or inox plate behind the spokes of the G25 wheel. On this plate the buttons will be mounted so their tops are about equally high as the two buttons on the G25 wheel. It's just an idea at this point. I still have to sleep a bit about it because the whole thing must be sturdy and above all; look nice.
I can't say when I will have time to work further on the mod. It may take a few weeks, though. Stay tuned!
Note that the surface you mount the wheel on can also play a role in the amount of noise produced. Quite often a desk will work as a sort of soundboard that amplifies the sounds of things laying on / attached to it.
Besides, if you think the G25 is noisy, try a DFP...
Besides, if you think the G25 is noisy, try a DFP...
I forgot to mention this. This definitely an edge over the G25. I'm really having a hard time performing proper heel and toe on the G25 whereas I never had any issues with the Performance Pedals. I might mod my G25's pedals though. I already voided the warranty with my wheel mod so I couldn't care less about the pedals' warranty
.I think this is just a matter of time. The G25 is still new and it may take some time for game developers to update their older titles. Considering the fact that even a crappy arcade game as Need For Speed: Carbon has full support for the G25, I think the future's looking bright for the G25.
Last edited by SatCP, .
Personally I find the G25's pedals quite an improvement over the Act LabsPerformance Pedals. The most noticable difference is of course the construction quality. The G25's pedal look like indestructible (they can probably break, but they look very sturdy and well made) whereas I have always found the Performance Pedals to be a bit flimsy. I've had 2 broken springs and a brake pedal that broke off! Now, according to Act Labs this had something to do with the used plastic compound and was fixed in later revisions so it may have been early adapter's bad luck. Act Labs support was very helpful, but I haven't heard bad things about Logitech's support either.
The feeling in the Act Labs pedals is actually quite good. Although the springs are nowhere as strong as the G25's, the pedals have a longer travel distance. I would rank the Performance Pedals below the G25, but definitely above the DFP's or MOMO's pedals.
No it does not. The G25 has an H pattern (and sequential pattern), but it does NOT have an H plate. As "Rtsbasic" mentioned, "Bob Smith" photographed in Logitech G25 - general discussion and I described (same thread one post up), the G25 does use 2 plates with cutout zones to simulate an H-shifter. It's a cheap design, but does the job. However, it has some shortcomings because of the design. One of them is the tendency to get stuck between gears, which is nearly impossible with a real H plate. If you have the Act Labs GPL Shifter at any chance, you'll notice it's WAY smoother to shift - it just has a way better feel to it. It's still not the real thing, but it's a lot closer than the G25's shifter. A disadvantage of the GPL Shifter are the long throws when compared to the G25.
Anyway, don't let that spoil the fun. The G25 is simply the best wheel available in its price class. Although I wouldn't recommend buying it just for the shifter, the shifter is a nice extra which can prove to be great fun and adds to the overall realism.
The G25 doesn't use a real H gate. The shifter is constructed by two vertical plates with cutout zones for gears 1 and 2 (left plate) and 5, 6 and reverse (right plate). The shifter handle sticks in the left or right position by something that can be best described as the head of a screw mounted on both sides of the handle which hooks in the cutout zones. In 3th and 4th gear the handle doesn't hook anywhere. That's why you can move the stick quite a bit to the left and right in 3th or 4th gear but not in the other gears.
While this simple mechanism works for simulating an H-shifter, it has several issues that make it feel quite different from a real shifter with H gate. The most annoying bit is that it's rather easy to get stuck between gears because the cutouts aren't nicely rounded whereas a real H gate has smooth rounded forks - nearly impossible to get stuck on such a fork's tooth.
I wish I made some pictures while I had mine open. One picture says more than a thousand words.
I'm not saying the shifter is bad or not worth the money ("BlakjeKaas" is probably referring to my Dutch review of the G25). I'm using it myself quite intensive, but it's definitely not on par with the rest of the wheel and has a cheapish overall feel. It's a nice add on, but I wouldn't advice anyone to buy the G25 just only to have an H-shifter because it will be a disappointment compared to the rest of the bundle. You should consider the shifter as an extra which can be great fun.
While this simple mechanism works for simulating an H-shifter, it has several issues that make it feel quite different from a real shifter with H gate. The most annoying bit is that it's rather easy to get stuck between gears because the cutouts aren't nicely rounded whereas a real H gate has smooth rounded forks - nearly impossible to get stuck on such a fork's tooth.
I wish I made some pictures while I had mine open. One picture says more than a thousand words.
I'm not saying the shifter is bad or not worth the money ("BlakjeKaas" is probably referring to my Dutch review of the G25). I'm using it myself quite intensive, but it's definitely not on par with the rest of the wheel and has a cheapish overall feel. It's a nice add on, but I wouldn't advice anyone to buy the G25 just only to have an H-shifter because it will be a disappointment compared to the rest of the bundle. You should consider the shifter as an extra which can be great fun.
I'm not sure, but there are several pages about how to fix broken Logitech pedals. Maybe that's what you meant?
[update] I completely forgot about the FREX hardware.
You can forget about an H-shifter using the DFP hardware. The shifter is nothing but a rocker between two switches. You are better of starting from scratch than to rebuilt this into an H shifter. Apart from that there isn't enough room for an H-shifter in that part of the housing. And even if you could squeeze it in, it'd be in an unnatural position for an H-shifter. besides, you'd have to give up 5 to 6 buttons on the wheel, because you need them for the shifter in a addition to the two already existing shifter switches. You could use a cheap/old gamepad though.
If you really want an H-shifter, get your hands on an Act Labs GPL shifter. Although it has a bit slower throws, it has a way better overall feel than the Logitech G25's shifter. Since Live For Speed can recognize (at least) 2 controllers, you should be able to use both (DFP + GPL Shifter) at the same time.
Last edited by SatCP, .
It depends on the surface of your desk. The clamping mechanism is simple, yet effective. However, since the claw as well as the G25's bottom is made from hard plastic it has the tendency to have very little grip on plastified or hard and very flat surfaces. I experience that too on my desk. No matter how tight you screw it, it always slides off after a while. It would have been better if Logitech had put rubber feet on the clamps and base.
Btw, don't try to screw it too tight... The clamp isn't that strong. I broke one of my DFP's clamps (which are identical to the ones of the G25) by overtightening it.
Anyway, seems like you already fixed it with a towel. Good idea
Btw, don't try to screw it too tight... The clamp isn't that strong. I broke one of my DFP's clamps (which are identical to the ones of the G25) by overtightening it.
Anyway, seems like you already fixed it with a towel. Good idea
Whether or not you want more or less buttons is a personal taste and greatly depends on the type of car you drive with (and the features the game supports). In a classic GT car as in GT Legends you see no buttons on the wheel, but in a modern F1 sim there's a shitload of buttons on the wheel. So adding more buttons to the wheel doesn't necessarely make it less realistic.
And let's not forget the sim racer has a serious disadvantage over a real race pilot. He can't look left, right or back without buttons (ok, there's TrackIR but I'm not using it), he doesn't have a copilot to perform some trivial tasks, not even a pit crew that can work out a new fuel/tyre strategy mid race or keep an eye on the car. You all have to do it by yourself, so I prefer to have buttons for all this close at hand. Less realistic? Maybe, but sim racing just ain't realistic - yet
Btw, what is a "FC"?
Anyway, sounds like a nice idea. The MOMO's larger diameter should be an improvement over the rather small G25 wheel. Is the MOMO wheel a lot heavier than the G25's wheel? I'm only wondering because the extra weight may make the force feedback effects less pronounced. Also the larger diameter will make the force feedback effect somewhat less powerful, but of course you can always increase the power.
How will you mount the MOMO on the G25's axle? Do you have a thread somewhere about your mod? I'm always interested in new ideas
Same answer as to "mcman".
I don't want the buttons somewhere near the wheel - I want them on it. Duct taping a gamepad on the wheel isn't exactly professional, so I'd still have to open the wheel to get the wires through the axle. To mount the buttons somewhat professional, I'd have to mod the wheel anyways. And to get the electronics of the gamepad inside the G25's housing, I'd probably also have make slight changes to it. If I can fit the PCB inside...
So doing this without touching the G25 isn't going to work, unless you're happy with the duct tape method
I still can use the gas or brake axii of the DFP for a handbrake. I now have an extra set of 18 buttons (which I won't all use) and 2 analog axii. I can't use the analog steering axle because it's mounted to the G25's motors to pass the calibration, but that's not really much of a loss.
Mounting the DFP board in a separate box would be possible, but I'd still have to mod the G25 to contain the DFP's sensors. Otherwise it won't work.
No matter what approach you take, if you want sleek buttons on the G25's wheel you'll have to do some modding to it which will very likely void it's warranty - even if it's only a small hole in the houding to get a cable through.
In fact I did very little modding to the G25 itself (yet). The only changes that could void my warranty are two 3 mm holes in the bottom plate to mount the optical center position sensor on, a 3mm hole in the rear to let the DFP's USB cable through and 3 4 mm holes in the bracket where I mounted the DFP's board on. For the rest it's untouched or easiliy to bring back in original state. Not exactly tricky business - in fact there's very little that can go wrong. The only challenge was to make sure it all fit in the G25's housing and most important to make sure the DFP is able to pas its self test and calibration.
Things will change of course when I mod the wheel itself to put the buttons on it. Depending on how I want the buttons on it (not yet decided) I might have to drill large holes in it for the buttons, or small ones for screws. I don't know yet. This must be done right from the first time.
*If* I had a gamepad laying around I could do that. But I don't have any. I *could* get myself a cheap one, but I already had the DFP which was useless now I have the G25. So...
First I had been thinking about moving the G25's buttons from the shifter to the wheel. That was before I had opened the G25 or DFP. However, I was interested in the internals of both wheels and after I opened them and saw how small the DFP's board was the idea of the "transplantation" came up. That way I still have all buttons on the shifter for less common tasks and functions.
You seem to have quite some technical details about the DFP and G25
Do you have a source you can share, or did you determine all that by yourself?
I didn't lookup the technical details as you did, but I went on with trial and error. I just unplugged cables to determine the bare minimum that's needed to get the DFP working. I don't think the total amount of counts is important, though. While I tested I could pass the calibration by moving the wheel only a few degrees left and right by hand (motor disconnected). My guess is that it's only counting the amount of counts it sees lock-to-lock without knowing how much there should be. Then it calculates the center position from that. What the null position sensor is doing there isn't exactly clear to me, but I really couldn't get the DFP working without it. The null zone didn't even have to be the physical center position. But I must say I didn't test the DFP with only this sensor disconnected. As soon as I started testing with the motor disconnected (while moving the wheel by hand) the null zone detector was a necessity.
I was afraid about the 200° - 900° sequence too, but in the end I never even noticed it. The wheel always worked just fine when it was "locked" in 200° mode.
*Maybe* the hardware is meant to be usable for a 200° wheel too? Has anyone ever peeked inside the newer 200° Logitech wheels? Maybe it's the same main board, but without the 200/900° microswitches on it.
I think you missunderstood me somewhere... I left the G25 as it is. So both G25 motors are still powered by the G25's electronics. What I did is adding the electronics of the DFP in the housing of the G25 to get more buttons on the wheel. But because the DFP performs a calibration at startup/connection I had to mount its sensors in the G25. Otherwise it refuses to work.
I did take power from the G25 power supply, but since there's no motor connected to the DFP board (only buttons), it doesn't draw much power. Thus now I have two USB cords coming out of my G25; the real G25 and the DFP.
So in other words, I still have the G25's clutch, shifter, maximum power,... because I didn't touch that part. I just added some stuff
Then the DFP fails its calibration and it doesn't work. I did quite some tests to determine the minimum required hardware to get the DFP working.
As I said I didn't expect such a temperature drop either. Previous lappings only achieved like 5 degrees. But I had to use a lot of thermal paste on this Conroe, so I think it was exceptionally concave. Other people didn't get a drop like that.
Whether or not it's worth it for you, you'll have to decide by yourself
But if you don't rush it and take good precautions there's few that can go wrong..
And boy, it DOES shine. I could use it as a mirror to shave myself if it wasn't that small
But temperatures dropped about 8 - 10 degrees (a lot more than I expected actually - seems like the heatspreader was really very concave). It's now clocking a lot higher than it would before.
It's already back "together in one piece". While I'm waiting for the buttons and ideas on how to put them on the wheel, I closed the housing (no need to change things inside anymore), reattached the steering wheel and I'm playing with it. Works just fine. No sign suggesting there's a DFP inside there
The warranty is void of course. But then again I'm one of these nuts who buys a 300+ euros Intel Core 2 duo CPU to immediatly void its three years warranty by lapping it (lapping is grinding and polishing the CPU's heatspreader for a more optimal heat transfer to the heatsink). I never had a failing CPU, so I never needed the warranty. It's always a risk, but I dare to take it. I'm far from the only one.
I had Logitech wheels before and none of them ever experienced an electronics failure. Yes, I experienced a broken clamping mechanism, worn out potmeters,... All mechanical failures I could easily fix myself. Of course it's possible that tomorrow the G25's electronics explode in my face (
). In that case I'd be probably out of luck, although in case of warranty issues with a DFP the Logitech service department asked to cut off the USB/serial connector and send it to them as proof. They didn't ask for the wheel or pedals itself (probably to reduce shipping costs). So they wouldn't know it if someone modded his DFP. Not that I'm counting on that of course.
I was really dissappointed by the lack of buttons on the G25 when it was introduced - still I bought it. I tried playing with only two buttons, but after being spoiled by the DFP I couldn't get used to it. It felt as going back to my old Thrustmaster Formula T2 (which was btw an excellent wheel but with way too few buttons). Therefore I wanted to "upgrade" my G25 to my likings.
I'm not trying to convince you guys to do the same, but I just thought I'd share my mod with you.
The warranty is void of course. But then again I'm one of these nuts who buys a 300+ euros Intel Core 2 duo CPU to immediatly void its three years warranty by lapping it (lapping is grinding and polishing the CPU's heatspreader for a more optimal heat transfer to the heatsink). I never had a failing CPU, so I never needed the warranty. It's always a risk, but I dare to take it. I'm far from the only one.
I had Logitech wheels before and none of them ever experienced an electronics failure. Yes, I experienced a broken clamping mechanism, worn out potmeters,... All mechanical failures I could easily fix myself. Of course it's possible that tomorrow the G25's electronics explode in my face (
). In that case I'd be probably out of luck, although in case of warranty issues with a DFP the Logitech service department asked to cut off the USB/serial connector and send it to them as proof. They didn't ask for the wheel or pedals itself (probably to reduce shipping costs). So they wouldn't know it if someone modded his DFP. Not that I'm counting on that of course.I was really dissappointed by the lack of buttons on the G25 when it was introduced - still I bought it. I tried playing with only two buttons, but after being spoiled by the DFP I couldn't get used to it. It felt as going back to my old Thrustmaster Formula T2 (which was btw an excellent wheel but with way too few buttons). Therefore I wanted to "upgrade" my G25 to my likings.
I'm not trying to convince you guys to do the same, but I just thought I'd share my mod with you.
I'm not sure what these numbers mean, but I'm sure the Chinese text on top of each number would explain it... Here's a picture of it. maybe someone can translate it:
It's probably nothing but the identification numbers of the persons who worked on the wheel during manufacturing.
It's probably nothing but the identification numbers of the persons who worked on the wheel during manufacturing.
Logitech G25 "Pro"
I got my G25 last week. So far I'm quite impressed with it. It's a vast improvement over the DFP and red MOMO Force - even though there are several weak points too. For the Dutch speaking users, I wrote a review about the wheel for tweakers.net: Volgas met de G25 (Dutch only).
One of the most annoying issues I have with the G25 is the lack of buttons on the wheel. I'm quite spoiled by the amount of buttons wheels like the MOMO Force and especially DFP provide. So I thought of modding the G25...
Mission: The mission goal is to add more buttons to the G25 wheel.
Method: There are several ways of increasing the number of buttons. One user taped a gamepad to his wheel with duct tape. Although efficient, it's far from a nice solution. I wanted to take a professional approach. My previous wheel was a DFP. Since this wheel will no longer be in use because of the G25 I thought of "recycling" its electronics for the extra buttons. After all, the DFP boosts a stellar amount of 18 switches (2 in the sequential shifter, 2 in the paddles, 4 in the POV hat switch and 10 standard buttons on the wheel).
Problems: Just as the G25 the DFP performs a self test and calibration at startup or connection. During this calibration the wheel determines the lock-to-lock distance and center position (null position). If this test and calibration fails, the electronics refuse to submit pressed buttons information to the computer. So just mounting the DFP's electronics in the G25 is not going to work. Somehow we'll have to fool the DFP to make it believe the calibration succeeded. Therefore we also have to move the sensors from the DFP over to the G25, but... that's not exactly what the G25 is meant for.
Too bad I forgot to make pictures from the unmodded G25 (I'm quite sure someone else will), so the above picture already contains a few modifications by myself. Clearly visible are the 2 motors. The G25's electronics are normally mounted on a bracket between the motors.
What is not original? The optical sensor on the left motor, the extra wires through the steering axle and the optical null position sensor right below the axle. A closer look:
Only one of the motors in the G25 is equipped with an optical sensor. You can recognize it by the black dustcap on the rear of the right motor. This sensor is used to determine to movement of the wheel. It's not possible to simply attach the DFP's electronics to this sensor. Luckily the G25 has two motors and one is naked at the rear so it's very easy to put the DFP's rotation sensor on it. This required minimal modding. Only the hole for the axle had to be made bigger because the motors are not exactly identical between G25 and DFP.
A slightly larger problem is the null position detection of the DFP because the G25 does without it. In the DFP this sensor is mounted near the main cogwheel on the steering axle. A shiny metal plate on the cogwheel indicates the null position of the wheel. Unlike the DFP, the G25 has a pretty much closed case around the cogwheels. I didn't want to make holes in it to prevent dust and such to slip in between the cogwheels. Luckily there's a toothed rack on the bottom of the G25 that moves with the wheel. Just as in the DFP this is used for the 900° hard locks.
This was an excellent place to mount the DFP's null zone detector. The shiny strip you see on the toothed rack indicates the null position. When this is under the optical sensor the DFP knows the G25 is in centered position. One issue was that the rack is mounted under an angle. I had to mount the sensor under the same angle, otherwise it wouldn't pick up the reflected signal.
The wide connector is the one of the DFP peeking through the steering axle. Although you'll only count 8 wires it can address up to 16 buttons (there's a little extra electronics on the DFP wheel). Not sure I will use all of them though.
On the above picture the hole through the axle looks quite big, but when you look one picture back you see the other end of the axle. That's a lot smaller, isn't it? I had to dismount the connector and push the wires wire by wire through the hole. Not really a pleasant job, especially not for the last wires.
This the bracket on which the G25's electronics are mounted and which goes between both motors. However, on the above picture you don't see the G25 electronics, but those of the DFP. The idea is to mount the DFP's electronics on the bottom and the G25's on the top of the bracket. Even though the PCB of the DFP is slightly smaller than the one of the G25, it has only 1 mm spare on the left and right. Also the top and bottom is a case of millimeters. But it's the only place where I could fit the board.
If you are somewhat familiar with the contents of a Driving Force Pro you'll recognize the board, but you'll also notice a few missing parts. The cut-out rectangle normally contains a small board with only a microswitch on. This switch is used to determine the position of the DFP's hard lock (200/900° mode). With it removed, the DFP thinks it's in 200° mode. That's not an issue - we won't be using the DFP's rotation at all. We only need it to pass the calibration. The other microswitch indicating the 900° mode may remain on the board.
Als the left corner is different. I had to remove a header because otherwise the bracket wouldn't fit anymore. The header isn't used anyways. Normally it connects to the motor that operates the 200/900° lock.
The bracket is mounted back into the G25. You can clearly see the DFP's PCB on the bottom of it. Just for safety I attached a plastic sheet on top of the DFP electronics to make sure the cables through the axle don't get stuck between te components.
Now the G25's PCB is back in place. At first sight it looks like an ordinary G25, but a closer inspection reveals some extras.
Here I attached the PCBs that normally go in the DFP's wheel. This is where the bottons are placed upon. I won't be using that for my mod, but it's easy for testing purposes.
Power up, self test & calibration and... It works! The DFP's LED lits up to indicate its normal status. When I press buttons on the DFP, the Logitech software recognizes it!
Part one of the mission succeeded. The G25 was succesfully modded to some sort of a G25 "Pro" by adding the electronics of a DFP. This is of course not where it ends. Now I have to mod the wheel itself to attach the extra buttons. But I'm not that far yet. I still have to order nice buttons, I haven't decided yet how to mount them and worst of all; during the next weeks I won't have much time to work on it so it may take a while before I make a status update.
Stay tuned...
One of the most annoying issues I have with the G25 is the lack of buttons on the wheel. I'm quite spoiled by the amount of buttons wheels like the MOMO Force and especially DFP provide. So I thought of modding the G25...
Mission: The mission goal is to add more buttons to the G25 wheel.
Method: There are several ways of increasing the number of buttons. One user taped a gamepad to his wheel with duct tape. Although efficient, it's far from a nice solution. I wanted to take a professional approach. My previous wheel was a DFP. Since this wheel will no longer be in use because of the G25 I thought of "recycling" its electronics for the extra buttons. After all, the DFP boosts a stellar amount of 18 switches (2 in the sequential shifter, 2 in the paddles, 4 in the POV hat switch and 10 standard buttons on the wheel).
Problems: Just as the G25 the DFP performs a self test and calibration at startup or connection. During this calibration the wheel determines the lock-to-lock distance and center position (null position). If this test and calibration fails, the electronics refuse to submit pressed buttons information to the computer. So just mounting the DFP's electronics in the G25 is not going to work. Somehow we'll have to fool the DFP to make it believe the calibration succeeded. Therefore we also have to move the sensors from the DFP over to the G25, but... that's not exactly what the G25 is meant for.
Too bad I forgot to make pictures from the unmodded G25 (I'm quite sure someone else will), so the above picture already contains a few modifications by myself. Clearly visible are the 2 motors. The G25's electronics are normally mounted on a bracket between the motors.
What is not original? The optical sensor on the left motor, the extra wires through the steering axle and the optical null position sensor right below the axle. A closer look:
Only one of the motors in the G25 is equipped with an optical sensor. You can recognize it by the black dustcap on the rear of the right motor. This sensor is used to determine to movement of the wheel. It's not possible to simply attach the DFP's electronics to this sensor. Luckily the G25 has two motors and one is naked at the rear so it's very easy to put the DFP's rotation sensor on it. This required minimal modding. Only the hole for the axle had to be made bigger because the motors are not exactly identical between G25 and DFP.
A slightly larger problem is the null position detection of the DFP because the G25 does without it. In the DFP this sensor is mounted near the main cogwheel on the steering axle. A shiny metal plate on the cogwheel indicates the null position of the wheel. Unlike the DFP, the G25 has a pretty much closed case around the cogwheels. I didn't want to make holes in it to prevent dust and such to slip in between the cogwheels. Luckily there's a toothed rack on the bottom of the G25 that moves with the wheel. Just as in the DFP this is used for the 900° hard locks.
This was an excellent place to mount the DFP's null zone detector. The shiny strip you see on the toothed rack indicates the null position. When this is under the optical sensor the DFP knows the G25 is in centered position. One issue was that the rack is mounted under an angle. I had to mount the sensor under the same angle, otherwise it wouldn't pick up the reflected signal.
The wide connector is the one of the DFP peeking through the steering axle. Although you'll only count 8 wires it can address up to 16 buttons (there's a little extra electronics on the DFP wheel). Not sure I will use all of them though.
On the above picture the hole through the axle looks quite big, but when you look one picture back you see the other end of the axle. That's a lot smaller, isn't it? I had to dismount the connector and push the wires wire by wire through the hole. Not really a pleasant job, especially not for the last wires.
This the bracket on which the G25's electronics are mounted and which goes between both motors. However, on the above picture you don't see the G25 electronics, but those of the DFP. The idea is to mount the DFP's electronics on the bottom and the G25's on the top of the bracket. Even though the PCB of the DFP is slightly smaller than the one of the G25, it has only 1 mm spare on the left and right. Also the top and bottom is a case of millimeters. But it's the only place where I could fit the board.
If you are somewhat familiar with the contents of a Driving Force Pro you'll recognize the board, but you'll also notice a few missing parts. The cut-out rectangle normally contains a small board with only a microswitch on. This switch is used to determine the position of the DFP's hard lock (200/900° mode). With it removed, the DFP thinks it's in 200° mode. That's not an issue - we won't be using the DFP's rotation at all. We only need it to pass the calibration. The other microswitch indicating the 900° mode may remain on the board.
Als the left corner is different. I had to remove a header because otherwise the bracket wouldn't fit anymore. The header isn't used anyways. Normally it connects to the motor that operates the 200/900° lock.
The bracket is mounted back into the G25. You can clearly see the DFP's PCB on the bottom of it. Just for safety I attached a plastic sheet on top of the DFP electronics to make sure the cables through the axle don't get stuck between te components.
Now the G25's PCB is back in place. At first sight it looks like an ordinary G25, but a closer inspection reveals some extras.
Here I attached the PCBs that normally go in the DFP's wheel. This is where the bottons are placed upon. I won't be using that for my mod, but it's easy for testing purposes.
Power up, self test & calibration and... It works! The DFP's LED lits up to indicate its normal status. When I press buttons on the DFP, the Logitech software recognizes it!
Part one of the mission succeeded. The G25 was succesfully modded to some sort of a G25 "Pro" by adding the electronics of a DFP. This is of course not where it ends. Now I have to mod the wheel itself to attach the extra buttons. But I'm not that far yet. I still have to order nice buttons, I haven't decided yet how to mount them and worst of all; during the next weeks I won't have much time to work on it so it may take a while before I make a status update.
Stay tuned...
I agree with this. More colors will make the minimap confusing, but it's really important to know who's on the same lap and who's not. It's not like I have a pit crew, team, copilot,... to keep an eye on everything.
Four colors is just fine. The exact colors don't matter at this point. Maybe Scawen can make them customizable (through the config so he doesn't need to redo to GUI).
Something I'd love to see is a comments textbox for each setup. One could use it to type in extra information about the setup, like fuel consumption for the tracks it's used for, pit stop strategies, things left to tweak on the setup, whether or not the setup is 'easy' on the tyres, suited for long distance/short stints,...
Right now I'm writing down the fuel consumption and a few other specs for each combo I drive on a piece of paper. But whenever you need it, it's lost. If we could add comments to setups that would be history.
I don't want anything fancy that takes a lot of coding. Just a plain text field somewhere in the garage screen. The "Info" tab is quite filled, but under "braking" there's a lot of open space. It's not really logical to put it there, but it'll do for now and otherwise you'd have way more work repositioning all the stuff.
Another thing which isn't much work to implement (I think) and has been asked a few times before elsewhere on the forum, is an extra color for the mini map: Right now you can see whether a car is driving ahead of you or behind you (in terms of ranking position) by the yellow and orange dots. That's very useful, but I miss one thing: I would find it very useful to be able to see whether a car on your tail is in the same lap. So would it be possible to give cars behind you but on the same lap a different color? For example: yellow; ahead, orange; behind but same lap, dark red; lapped.
Right now I'm writing down the fuel consumption and a few other specs for each combo I drive on a piece of paper. But whenever you need it, it's lost. If we could add comments to setups that would be history.
I don't want anything fancy that takes a lot of coding. Just a plain text field somewhere in the garage screen. The "Info" tab is quite filled, but under "braking" there's a lot of open space. It's not really logical to put it there, but it'll do for now and otherwise you'd have way more work repositioning all the stuff.
Another thing which isn't much work to implement (I think
) and has been asked a few times before elsewhere on the forum, is an extra color for the mini map: Right now you can see whether a car is driving ahead of you or behind you (in terms of ranking position) by the yellow and orange dots. That's very useful, but I miss one thing: I would find it very useful to be able to see whether a car on your tail is in the same lap. So would it be possible to give cars behind you but on the same lap a different color? For example: yellow; ahead, orange; behind but same lap, dark red; lapped.Another way can be seen in the attached screenshot. With a command like that the hazard light (or left/right turning light if you change the keys) blinks for as long as you hold the assigned button. As soon as you release the button, the light goes out.
I always forget which one the "Thanks" key is
If I see someone making sure I can make a safe pass I tend to blink the hazard light twice as a way of saying thanks. I guess most people don't even notice it, so it may be better to say thanks over the chat.
That's how I experience it too. I used to indicate to the opposite side, but that lead to discussions like "why were you indicating left while you stayed right?" or contacts because the other car moved the same way as I did. Now I simply sign in the direction I move. Can't say I had anyone complaining about that.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG