Quote from wsinda :

Having spent some time browsing the forum, I think I see a parallel to Godwin's law:

A corollary, even.

Quote from KurtG85 :

Of course i can understand why you wouldnt put it in gear after turning in, but im wondering why it would be so insane to brake with just the brakes until reaching a safe speed to put it in the right gear for the corner, and then turning in?

Its not insane in the least.

As is kind of alluded to above re: slipper clutches, this is pretty much exactly what happens in racing motorcycles. Engine braking is limited to just about nothing, in the interest of consistency and smoothness.

As is made obvious with the new BF1 in LFS, the ECU is used in racing cars for a similar effect, although more easily adjustable.

Quote from JeffR :

It depends on the car. In real life, many racing cars have their clutches setup to limit the amount of engine braking, probably for two reasons: 1. to keep the rear tires from sliding; 2. to keep the engine from over-revving.

Like motorcycle slipper clutches? In the cars you are talking about, is this done through electohydraulic clutch control, or a mechanical system like the motorcycles? For anyone not familiar with the idea, here is a good link : http://www.sigmaperformance.com/slipperclutch.html

Quote :

I get the impression that F1 cars don't rely on engine braking at all, based on the when the downshifts occur.

spaf1.wmv

Yeah I have that understanding too. I think they do add more engine braking to the throttle-closed ECU settings when they have good reason.

Neat, with a little racing mine are down to 59's.

The other thing I just noticed too was that it used to take a good bit of dithering of the mouse button to get a good launch without spinning the F08...I could do it but apparently a lot of n00bs couldn't as everytime there was an open F08 race someone would spin on the grid.

Now, it seems as if its markedly easier to keep the thing pointy end forward when launching it.

Very interesting stuff. The craziest thing is that now when I switch from XFG to BF1 I actually get slightly queasy from the speed change.

I haven't had much time to drive the new patch, but the hour or so I've spent has been very interesting.

I drove the BF1 around numerous tracks and marveled at how I ever lived driving here at school with the mouse without traction control. Simply amazing. The sound engine for the BF1 is really nice too.

Then I went and drove an the XFG around BLGP for a few laps, and while I never really got up to pace, it seemed as if the tire modeling was a little less peculiar when making tight turns or getting the car momentarily sideways. It still seems to me that the cars don't hook up hard enough when they stop moving sideways, but that may be a seat of the pants thing more than an actual simulation thing.

So then for giggles I went and pulled out an old, slow, easy to drive F08 setup for BL1. And promptly blasted away my old personal best by 1.5 seconds in about ten laps of practice. Whoa! I didn't get better at driving (I'm sure I'm not as good now as I was when I was spending more time with LFS) so what changed that made the F08 so much quicker? Or is it just me? I may be horribly confused. Maybe its just easier to drive now?

Wow, this jerk posts like he is from NY or something. (I'm from NY, btw...I know sarcasm doesn't travel well)

What a ridiculous thread. I quite like the lack of silly, unrealistic stuff like horns in single seaters.

Quote from JTbo :

I think engines are too small in displacement and revs too high to sound good, it is like dentist drill, no matter if it is v10 or V8 at least from tv I can't hear differences?

Yeah I never really loved the sound of the V10s on TV, but when I got a chance to hear them in person it was phenomenal. I would have loved to hear the old V-12s. The thing that really blew me away though was how aggressive the spark-cut TC is out of tight bends, it sounds like a thousand little bombs going off.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Can't wait for TC to be eradicated from F1 in 2008 with control ECU's

It will certainly make the cars sound a lot sweeter exiting tight bends than the current staccato machinegun noise, won't it?

I haven't heard the new V8s in person yet, does anybody have any comments on how the sound differs?

Quote from tristancliffe :

To everyone who says [kids are worse now, food is worse now, people are dumber now] , but wasn't 10/20/30/40 years ago (delete as applicable):

At THAT time (e.g. in 1994, or 1979, or 1964 etc) people thought [kids were jerks, food was bad, people were dumb], and wished it was like the 'good old days'. But then, as now, they forget that the good old days were about the same as now. We see the past with rose-tinted spectacles.

Well said. I took some liberty with your words. One of my huge pet peeves are people papering over the past with rose colored lenses. This seems to happen in all aspects of life. I love when flipping morons tell me about how safe cars were in the 1950's. Or old folks lament teen pregnancy "today" when teen pregnancy fifty years ago occurred at double today's rate.

Oh: Senna made a mistake and paid the ultimate price. Or something broke, although the evidence I've personally seen doesn't support that. Not even a kangaroo court and millions of dollars worth of handwaving could determine otherwise, as tristan and others have noted.

In fact, this kind of stupid bickering over something that is over and done with a decade ago wouldn't be going on if it wasn't for irresponsible government officials and their media-friendly kangaroo court antics. There never should have been all of that public money spent on such a fruitless, pointless exercise. Sillyness in the extreme. The same damn thing always happens when famous people die, because politicians see opportunity.

I was a wee little kid watching that race that morning (live in the US, on ESPN back then IIRC), and it was pretty somber for me.

Quote from SamH :

[EDIT] I should clarify that for any tag which is itself self-contained, the /> will be expected in future. The IMG tag is self-contained, so it requires this. Also you'll see other self-contained tags like <br> appear as <br /> and so on.

That and the lowercase tag names (which was technically wrong but I've been doing forever anyways) are the two big changes to make HTML an XML compliant language, correct?

Quote from Hallen :

It would certainly be nice, but what we really need is the third spring setting that adjusts for downforce. This is a simple system that takes up the load for the downforce at speed and allows the ride height and regular springs to be set more easily.

Does the real life Sauber use third spring? I recall that not all of the F1 teams were?

I agree with tristan about dual springs, the only intelligent use of such is with a very largely different spring rate tender spring for certain practical applications. And yes, as I recall it is Smith's contention that the use of progressive spring setups or rising rate geometry is something to be approached with caution and consideration at the least, and better if you don't need to do it at all.

Third spring setups are definitely cool though, and would be nice to have for the single seaters in LFS.

Quote from NetDemon01 :

I must be having the same problem. Just single clicking on the avi messed up my computer. I have to bring up the task manager and end explorer.exe to get back to normal. I can't even drag the avi file into the trash, or anywhere else. I'll download the codec pack and see if that fixes it.

Drag it to the trash?

The last time I had a PC where I could drag things to something called the trash was a 386 with Geos Ensemble. :lol:

Quote from nikimere :

Why are you trying to complicate things? The simple answer to which is quicker is... A combination of both engine braking and normal braking together is the fastest way to slow down your car, be it IRL or in a game.

I dunno. Not just Smith, but very good drivers I trust have suggested making downshifts as late as practicable, unless one has a very good reason to need the extra engine braking. I think the true benefits for experienced drivers were best described by Vain and Tristan.

One of the things I see as an obvious problem is feel. A good braking/steering system gives a lot of feel for what is going on at the front corners of the car. In my experience, the feel as to the braking at the rear is more vague because it isn't as dominant and isn't hooked up to the steeering. With engine braking, you need to be a left foot braker in order to modulate both brakes and engine braking at the same time. I think the benefits of engine braking show up in situations like tristan describes, because you cannot adjust brake bias for every corner perfectly, but can do a much better job if you can modulate engine braking to modulate the effective brake bias.

This is not something that is easily done. Its stupid/pointless/impossible on the streetable cars I race that have synchromesh gearboxes. For them, the benefit of engine braking is saving the inevitably undersized brakes from abuse.

In LFS, it seems to me that since the feel of braking is lacking compared to the real thing, you have to rely on either lots of practice or secondary clues to know when you overdo the engine braking and cause understeer/oversteer depending on drive configuration. Since there is always plenty of brakeforce in LFS, aggressive use of engine braking seems to me to uneccessarily complicate things at the expense of consistency.

However, for people looking to run WR times, the ability to dynamically adjust brake bias without twisting a knob/punching F12 has obvious benefits. I wonder how large they are. I imagine the benefits are greater on the cars with downforce because their apparent mass distribution changes with airspeed. Reason number 13516 it would be nicer for everyone if racecars had the wings loading the uprights instead of the chassis.

Quote from nikimere :

it's simple, why use one method of slowing the car down when you could use 2? you stop faster.

It makes absolutely no difference whether or not you use engine braking in a game that doesn't involve weak brakes or brakes that overheat and fade. Since brake force in LFS is always sufficient to lock the wheels if you so desire, there is no excuse for the above rather wrong comment.

As Carroll Smith correctly noted, using engine braking as a matter of course makes things less repeatable and less consistent.

Quote from tristan :

There's no doubt that in real life, in LFS and in Mr Smiths head that using engine braking with normal braking is quicker,

Perhaps in cars with downforce where optimum brake balance changes with airspeed...other than that, why could using both be "quicker"?

Quote from mr_x :

i suppose you have a point.... but are things like petrol, car insurance etc etc just as expensive over there as it is over here??

lets just say the way of life in the good ol' UK is different to life in the US

Good point there as well. I just filled up for 2.50 a gallon, which is outrageously expensive by US standards. My insurance is about 1000 dollars a year.

I'm actually flying to the USGP this year, it would be about a 1200 mile roundtrip drive for me and the airline ticket is about 200 dollars roundtrip. I'll drive to the Canadian GP as that is only about 150 miles away.

Quote from mr_x :

Snetterton is too far away!!

You Brits need to realize how lucky you are.

Do you have any idea how far I have to drive to see club racing, let alone professional touring car racing?

Nothing in Britain is "too far away" from anything else..

Quote from machairrrrrrr :

DO NOT be rude to a country bigger than yours

Haha, go tell that to Congress. Meanwhile keep my prices low!

Quote :

If nobody understands your "humor" but you, then maybe you should reevaluate your view of the world.

Yet there are folks who get it. Folks from all over. They may be rarer in some places, but they certainly exist. I understand what you are saying and the truth and value in it, but I'm a stubborn curmudgeon.

Quote :

No, you did not directly say they were from NY, but you implied that they were and you did not say anything about after their higher educations. Words mean things, dude, and it also means things when you leave words out.

I said they went to Brandeis and then took up theater in NY. I would assume you know where and what Brandeis is, its a relatively well known institution. So yeah, I didn't imply they were from NY, I explicitly stated they went there after getting an education. Thats how NYC maintains its population really, what with all those "born there" folks moving all over God's country as you correctly generalized.

Quote :

The comment about guns and Georgia is a good example. There is nothing funny about that.

Nope, nothing at all funny about that. That statement is largely true, unfortunately. Something like 85 percent of the crime guns used in NYC were originally sold by FFL dealers in the southeast. The ATF website has a cute little map with arrows pointing from Georgia to NY to descibe the trade, which is where the Georgia comment comes from.

edit: Here is a link to an ATF press release from this week about this very issue. South Carolina is the culprit here: http://www.atf.gov/press/fy06p ... d/032806ny_gunrunners.htm

Quote :

So, have fun with your humor, I hope it works out for you. But be careful, in Texas, shooting annoying Yanks is justifiable homicide

Whenever I meet Texans I can usually find common ground pretty fast, I had a Texan roommate and we got along quite well. It was rather hilarious when he was playing poker online and some Canadian called him out for saying "y'all", and he then asked me what the heck "eh?" meant....

But yeah I try and avoid getting shot...

Last edited by skiingman, Thu 30 Mar 2006, 19:09.

Quote from Funnybear :

So much for the quick one liner comeback . . .

Sorry for botching your thread.

Quote from Hallen :

Uh, ya. It's just that they probably can't understand a word you are saying seeing as they speak English there.

Heh. Only the proles have the strong accent, pal.

Us enlightened (hehe) folk might as well be from Peoria, if you go by our accent.

Quote :

Also, there is an assumption of civility and politeness out west

Uh, no. Have you ever spent time in Texas? I wouldn't call it the land of civility or politeness.

Quote :

and sarcasm is saved for people who you are willing to call a friend, if it is meant as a jest, and for your enemies if it is not.

Folks here who are my close friends still don't get the sarcasm. It seems dead baby jokes just don't play well here. I don't get why everyone takes life so seriously...can't I make a joke about backalley abortions without people taking up arms?

I personally think its hilarious to see the jokes the Euros make about Americans, particularly when you turn them around. Did you see the recent Daily Show segment on the Danish?

Quote :

DOH! I forgot, ain't nuthin gud 'les it come outa Nnugh Yauk.

No, not NY per se. Moreso the Northeastern United States in general.

BTW, I don't actually believe that. Its just funny to get a rise out of people living in flyover states...

Quote :

Lets see, 6 under-employed 20-something characters living in apartments way beyond their means, getting themselves caught in all kinds of goofy situations yet still manage to maintain their strong bond of friendship even while they swap mates like fruit flies in heat... Nope, I guess that kind of humor couldn't happen anywhere but New York.

The show, IMHO, sucked. What couldn't have happened without writers that have experience in NY is much of the sarcastic humor.

Quote :

Oh, and since David Crane was born in Philadelphia and is Ditto with Marta, then I assume neither of them are from New York?

Nope, like I said they both went to NY after their higher educations, perhaps in search of people with a sense of humor and a high value placed on art. The latter half of that sentence is facetious, btw.

Quote :

I'm making a generalization, but sometimes it's spot on.

And indeed that one you made was spot on. Nothing wrong with that. Heck, I've made that one myself before.

You see, I can make as many desparaging jokes as I want about NY, Georgia, the Danish, etc. and not get my panties in a bunch if the tables are turned on me. That capability is something the British surely seem to have in spades, but it seems many Americans do not.

Oh hell no.

New York doesn't believe in guns.

The only folks with (handguns) on the streets of NY are criminals that bought them from some guy that "legally" purchased them in Georgia, filed the numbers off, and resold them on the streets of NY.

Quote from Funnybear :

I had two Newyorkers come into my bar once. Real 'ol native new yorkers with that realy thick New yorker Drawl which can make one word last a minute.

Haha.

Those weren't NY folks....they were Georgians. Conversation with new yorker would have gone:

Where's the candy?

Where is the candy?

CANDY!

Quote from SamH :

Do you have to be a New Yorker to be an American who gets sarcasm? .

YES.

I say sarcastic things all the time that would be just plain understood in the northeast and these folks here in the southwest stare at me like I'm crazy or I killed their dog, depending on the particular remark.

Quote from hallen :

And how many of those actors on Friends do you really think came from New York in the first place, hmmmm?

Who cares? Where are the writers from?

Dana Klein: NY
Marta Kauffmann: Went to Brandeis, then took up theatre in NY
David Crane: Ditto.

Humor like friends just doesn't come from Georgia. I'm making a generalization, but sometimes that isn't so crazy or bad.

Last edited by skiingman, Wed 29 Mar 2006, 02:39.

Quote from colcob :

Fair enough, then I stand corrected, I wasnt aware there were oval tracks out there with hairpin bends and spoon curves.

Yeah, and like I said I'm not a NASCAR fan. The most interesting "left turn only" tracks are usually not the ones NASCAR is competing on. If you ask drivers or fans, they will tell you that the now ubiquitous 1.5 mile speedways get tired after the first few...

If you look down the ranks from NASCAR to more accessible forms of circle track racing in the US, you find some of the really interesting tracks (some have very little bank, some have huge banks with insane transitions, some are ridiculously small and more like a bullfight than a race, etc.)

The one thing I really do like about circle track racing is that it makes quality racecar components that are sized about right to be adaptable to road cars quite readily accessible and inexpensive.