Quote from Boris Lozac :

Can you point me some links please to the Real feel plugin and the best mod for it, so i can try it out myself?

Sure, the main RSC thread is at:
http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=291072

The Caterham mod can be found at:
http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cfm?ID=Caterham

Please note it is only the Caterbusa and Powertec models that have had their suspension generated in carFactory and therefore provide more accurate forces at the steering rack that the other models.

I feel like I'm spamming here and it's making me uncomfortable - please, any more RealFeel questions could I ask they be posted over at RSC? Also, if you're going to try RealFeel please read the ReadMe in it's entirety.

Quote from Gil07 :

Okay, how the **** do I do a few practice laps on that? That main menu is quite bad

Probably best head over to the rFactor forums at RSC, this isn't really the place....

Quote from Gil07 :

I'm downloading the demo now, to check for myself... It's HUGE though

I've not tried the cars from the demo with RealFeel but I wouldn't expect them to be very realistic as they won't have had their suspensions tuned to perfection. Unfortunately you can't use add-on cars (i.e. the carFactory Caterhams) without unlocking - oh oh, I see where this is going, I'll shut-up right now.

Quote from Gil07 :

Come on, I'm interested... Don't be afraid!

It's hard to put a finger on any particular thing to be honest. Initially it was the atmosphere at the tracks and the sounds that got me hooked, it just felt more alive. I never really liked the FFB and tweaked everything I could to try to get it more direct and LFS-like, but it kept dragging me back anyway. I had doubts about the physics engine to be honest, but over time they have slowly but surely dissolved (mostly - of course there are still some issues, like there are with LFS, RBR, any sim you care to name).

The netcode is a biggie, very fluid and allows real door to door racing with hardly any perceptible lag and hardly any "why did it do that?" moments.

Moddability is another biggie.

More recently Kangaloosh! has done some amazing work to produce carFactory, a piece of software that helps build suspension and tyres for rFactor. It was his questioning of the FFB system that triggered the whole RealFeel plugin. He had calculated that the physics engine was doing all the right things to within 0.1 degs, but changes in suspension geometry weren't doing what they should to the forces at the wheel. That's where the plugin comes in, which when combined with the carFactory generated Caterhams (and hopefully a lot of the upcoming mods) allows me to feel how good the physics engine really is.

Quote from Mike85 :

Hm, it seems rFactor is getting there. Someone will make a mod for the driving physics and thats it.

The driving physics are pretty much spot on, the FFB was the problem all along IMO.

Quote from Linsen :

Hey TechAde! Never noticed your name in this forum before. Would you care to elaborate on why that love affair was lost? I personally think this would be interesting to hear from somebody who obviously has moved from LFS/RBR to rFactor.

(And I hope there will not be too much flaming and fanboy-retorts if people in this forum should happen to not agree with your reasoning -- Unfortunately I can't guarantee safe conduct, though .)

I'm not brave enough, sorry

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Please what? In years they "sweared" in their uber realistic Force Feedback system, rubbing on my face how realistic it is...

Please stop generalising about an entire community. The rFactor community has long acknowledged that the LFS FFB system is more realistic.

A quote from the RealFeel plugin ReadMe:

Quote :

Suddenly it was possible to feel what the car was going to do before it did it. A memory of a long lost love affair with LFS and RBR fleetingly flashed by

If that isn't a nod to the (previously) superior FFB system in LFS then what is?

What ISI did with the rFactor FFB was create a system that would mask badly modelled suspension geometry and would provide 'decent' feedback even when suspension geometry was not accurate. This allowed modders to build cars without worrying whether their geometry was millimetre perfect and still have them drive acceptably.

What we have done with the RealFeel plugin is stripped away all this processing and send the forces on the steering rack direct to the wheel. Combine this with cars with accurately modelled suspension (such as the Caterham Caterbusa and Caterham Powertec) and the results are virtually indistinguishable from the 'feel' of LFS. I kid you not. Anyone in Edinburgh is quite welcome to pop round to my place and feel it for yourself.

Irony? No, not at all. Progress? Yes.

Quote from Woz :

That is if you find someone, There is the grand total of..... drum roll..... 6 people playing rF online as I post this looking at RaceCast.

6

SIX

4th April 2007, 10:05 BST

rFactor: 289 racers on 92 populated servers. (Stats provided by rFactor Server Spy)
LFS: 122 racers on 35 populated servers. (Stats provided by LFSWorld.net)

Now I've stirred it up a little, back to lurking

Quote from Rtsbasic :

Could anyone share some advice or tweaked settings to make rFactor feel nicer? I'm using a modified ini I found on another forum, and it feels okay - a lot better than stock, but I can't actually feel most things, and holding a car sideways is damned close to impossible.

Ian's settings are similar to mine, but not quite the same. In fact I'm going to try Ian's before posting mine.

Thing is controller.ini isn't the end of the story, to make it feel right you also need to set the DFP control panel as follows:

Overall Effects Strength: 140%
Spring Effect Strength: 0%
Damper Effect Strength: 0%
Centering Spring Strength: 0%

This was suggested to BWX232 by Logitech support. The idea is that ramping up the overall effects strength in the control panel, then lowering the FF strength in-game provides more linear feedback, and allows you to feel the subtle forces that are lost when running lower control panel strength and higher in-game strength (something like that anyway, it sure helps).

Quote from al heeley :

Sorry, that is not aimed at you, Techade!

No need to apologise Al, I totally agree with you and Ian


Edit: LOL apart from Ian's last bit about "no apparant reason"...

Quote from Matrixi :

I mean it's (nearly) impossible to even drift in rFactor without modding the car physics to hell and back. It's that hard to feel the car, there is pretty much no hope of feeling when the tail starts to go.

I think maybe the reason a lot of people feel this way initially is down to the lame default FF settings, because I know it's certainly not that way for me. I can feel every little bump in the road, I can feel when the back end is going to come round and how much opposite lock is needed when it does come round, I can even hold a drift as long as I haven't unbalanced the car too much.

I've been racing the McLaren F1 mod most of the weekend, I find it the most immersive mod so far, IMHO the physics are more accurate/better modelled than anything else in rF to date. I'll see if I can grab a couple of little clips showing some tail out opposite lock action, honestly it is more than just possible, and huge amounts of fun

Quote from Matrixi :

I can't remember how the configuration screen looked, but I'm pretty sure the 2 wheels showed up in a list and I had to select which one to use. Perhaps this has changed in a patch?

I can't remember offhand either sorry, haven't been in there for ages, but I'm pretty sure nothing has changed due to a patch. I tend to do all my controller config in the controller.ini file, it's a real pandoras box of goodies compared to the very limited options in the GUI.

Quote from Matrixi :

My clutch pedal is also a bit broken, only part of the potentiometer range is working and that couldn't be fixed in rFactor (unlike in LFS).

I had a similar problem with my first set of DFP pedals, and used DX Tweak 2 (not just for Logitech) to workaround the problem for all sims/games, until Logitech sent me a new set of pedals for nowt

Quote from Matrixi :

You mean that the actual wheel rotation you see IN the game is changed? Didn't know this one, a bit weird that the wheels aren't given correct rotation degrees in the first place.

Yup, the in-game graphical wheel rotation By default all cars have a visible rotation of about 200 degrees, which I guess what your 'average' wheel rotation is, excluding DFPs (which can also be locked to 200 btw, with a button combo). I don't see how they could set the 'correct' rotation in the first place as unless they could query the controller driver how would they know what rotation your wheel is? As far as I am aware LFS doesn't set this itself, you set it in the GUI.

Quote from Matrixi :

I had nothing but sheer trouble and lag, connection issues, mod issues, compatibility issues.. *shiver*. Good to see it has worked out for someone.

Sorry to hear that, I run a club server and we don't have any issues with the netcode at all

Quote from Matrixi :

If rFactor is your cup of tea, so be it. Doesn't suit me tho, now or ever (unless they atleast get the physics right).

Fair enough, I tend to agree that LFS does have the more complete physics model, however I don't think the rFactor model is as bad as some people make out, but the default controller/forcefeedback config (and cars for that matter) are extremely lame compared to what is possible.

Racing sims are my cup of tea, and there is room in my cup for both rFactor and LFS.

Firstly let me say I own, play and enjoy both rFactor and LFS, but I feel there are a few points made here that are totally false.

Quote from Matrixi :

Since I have 2 wheels connected (other one just for the clutch), I had to select WHICH one I wanted to use in game, couldn't use them both in the same time. What kind of stupid un-trained monkey programmed the configuration? This is how it also works in all other GTL/GTR games. It was pretty pointless using my shifter if I couldn't use clutch together with it.

That is simply not true. I have a DFP and MSFF connected, and had no problems at all setting them up. Click click click done. I don't know what your problem is, but your claim that rFactor can't use more than one controller is wrong.

Quote from Matrixi :

Another disappointment is how the wheel rotation is done in the game. LFS does it pretty realistically, the wheel turns 720 degrees in the game (depending on car), where in rFactor it only turns like what, 200 degrees? Looks pretty dumb when you're using 900/720 degrees with DFP and the wheel in rFactor only turns a measly 200 degrees. These are only a few things that keeps me away from rFactor.

The amount of wheel rotation is customisable per vehicle, it's just not in the GUI like it is in LFS, you have to edit a text file.

Quote from Matrixi :

The AI was ok I guess. They have to be ok since the multiplayer sucks in rFactor and all you're left with is offline practice.

I'm sorry but that's simply not true either. In my experience (as a long-time administrator of both LFS and rF servers) the rFactor netcode is at least on par with LFS, maybe even slightly superior (don't shoot, I said maybe ).

Ok rant over, can we get back to racing now?

Quote from AndroidXP :

Yes, but in LFS this effect is archieved by putting a force on the car body, which in return compresses the suspension, so the whole thing does also work while airborne.

In rF I guess* it's just one of the other numerous canned effects, that either just moves the view or artifically compresses the suspension, so I'm not quite sure if it even has an influence on the physics calculations respectively if it would change the roll of the car whilst revving up midair (which I don't really think looking at the obviously flawed gravity).

My guess would be that it's not a canned effect, but I don't have any evidence either way, all I'm going on is how it feels to me, and it sure doesn't feel like a canned effect. I'm not quite sure what this has to do with whether or not rF gravity is borked, or if you've been following the gravity thread over at RSC, but it seems to have been proved that the gravity is not flawed. ["Seems" - once again I've done no research of my own, so I'm not really in a position to comment]

Quote from AndroidXP :

But whatever, no reason to have an argument over it.

Totally agree, however nowt wrong with a reasoned discussion

Quote from AndroidXP :

For me, rFactor or any other current sim will never come close to LFS and for some people it might be the exact opposite. No amount of arguing is going to change that.

Fair enough, but I reckon you'd be pleasantly surprised if you came and had a few laps on my rFactor setup.

Quote from AndroidXP :

* I'd actually research it if the rFactor guys bothered to put out a demo

Yup, there really should be one I agree, although at the rate they're adding new features to the core I guess a demo isn't top of the priority list.

Sorry if I'm coming over as argumentative, I'm not meaning to be. I dream of the day when rF'ers and LFS'ers can co-exist in perfect harmony, just like they co-exist on my hard drive

Quote from AndroidXP :

Besides that, did you notice that LFS even simulates the rotation forces generated by the engine? When you rev up, you see the car nudge to the side a little bit.

So does rFactor, RevItUp.wmv.

Don't shoot me, I think both LFS and rFactor are superb, however I'm enjoying rFactor more at the moment. When S2 comes out of alpha I'm sure LFS will get plenty more of my time.

I've spent a lot of time tweaking my forcefeedback and controller settings in rFactor and I can assure you that when configured the way I've got mine the "automatic" countersteering effect is very much in effect (I run a DFP @ 900 degrees of rotation), and in no way is it a case of "oversteer = oh dear".

It seems to be hit and miss. I recently bought a DFP, Rev B, but have a problem with the brake pedal already. Contacted Logitech support and they're sending a new set of pedals FOC

The emails DT sent out for previous sessions have all our email addresses in the CC: field, couldn't we just take them from there?

Anyone that wants is welcome to jump on my server for a mess about.

Quote from tristancliffe :

If not we can always go to TechAdes server?

My server won't take us all, it's only a little PIII, on my Telewest 256kbit upload

Quote from BWX232 :

Look at the thread at RSC and download the video..

It makes a sound when BOTH WHEELS are locked.. but NOT when just ONE WHEEL is locked (on the front)..

Read the thread, downloaded the replay. Thinking about it, maybe the reason I didn't get tyre squeal with the rear-biased brake balance test I did was because of the low load on the rears under braking. So I'll shut up now, sorry for interrupting.

Just did a quick test in the FOX. First, brake balance all the way forward. Stopped on a straight, wheels straight. Start slowly accelerating, touch the brake just enough to lock the fronts... very noticeable skidding sound. Now move the brake balance all the way to the back and repeat the test... rears lock, but no skidding sound, just a quiet 'shhhhhh'.

I'll do a bit more investigation, but could it be that locked driven wheels don't make the skidding sound?

That was so much fun

Practice went really well, watching the lines and braking points of you quick guys really helps. Managed to get my PB down to a 1:16.4.

Qually was also pretty good, although I struggled to put together a good lap when I had a clear track I managed a 1:16.8 I think it was. Anyone get a replay of qually?

The sprint race went well, although I was over-cautious at the start and was never able to make the time up again. Happy with only 1 real mistake though, clipped the wall (can't quite remember where now) and cost myself about 3 seconds on lap 9, but which ended up costing me more as I started to abuse the tyres too much trying to make up the lost time. The slight damage from the brush with the wall didn't help I'm sure. Held on to 7th in the end, which I'm happy with.

The feature race was even better. Got a slightly better start, managed to stay out of trouble and was shocked to find myself in 3rd before my pit stop. Dropped back down to 6th after my stop, but was pretty happy with my pace, my best race lap being a 1:16.8. The end of the race was exciting, as CMU was gaining on me and I was having to lap backmarkers (wow never thought I'd say that!). How I held my nerve I don't know, but it was a great finish with only about half a second between us across the line.

I shouldn't have said anything, then maybe I'd have been able to unlap myself when you ran out of fuel on lap 13

Quote from bobvanvliet :

At that pace, my tyres do last the 12 laps though...

Isn't the sprint race 16 laps?

With the help of Bob and Tristan's setups, both kindly posted on the forum here somewhere, I've managed to get down to a 1:17.00 but haven't yet broken into the 16s, hopefully that will happen this afternoon.

I struggle with tyres a lot, too cold or too hot and those barriers catch me.

The 5 lap races for practice idea is a good one in my opinion. I think it will really help with racecraft, something we're all going to need a lot of to survive both rounds I fear!