Very nice and clean lap for the truck.
Very nice and clean lap for the truck.
Nice job!
I haven't tried the truck around Barber yet, but i spent a very long night hotlapping with my brother in the Radical around there. It really is a fantastic track
I have absolutely no idea where you people get the idea that "iRacers" are looking down on other sims or feeling in any way superior or are snobbish. It's really funny to see this kind of opinion in an LFS forum, I might add. I don't think there's any other sim forum I know of where other sims are slagged more than here.
Personally, I haven't seen a single thread slagging any other sim on the iRacing forums (except for the ARCA thing maybe, of which I know nothing about). Many people are still racing in rFactor leagues for example and still enjoy iRacing for what it offers. Maybe you guys are mistaking enthusiasm for one thing with contempt for another thing?
As far as pick-up racing goes: there's nothing wrong with it, if you enjoy it. Personally, I never did get too much from it, which is why I raced in CTRA servers exclusively when I was still racing LFS. Still, it never offered the same close racing for me that iRacing does with it's SR and iRating. To have a 24 lap race with no more than 0.5 seconds between me and another driver was completely unheard of for me prior to iRacing. Honestly, I've never had more fun in sim racing than now with iRacing.
Atm it's really quite simple: If you like what iRacing offers as opposed to other sims, you race it -- if you can afford it, that is. But that doesn't mean that any other sim or system is worth less. It's what you prefer and nothing more. And that has nothing to do with "marketing crap", as someone put it. Marketing means nothing as soon as you enter a race and either get what you're looking for or don't.
Personally, I haven't seen a single thread slagging any other sim on the iRacing forums (except for the ARCA thing maybe, of which I know nothing about). Many people are still racing in rFactor leagues for example and still enjoy iRacing for what it offers. Maybe you guys are mistaking enthusiasm for one thing with contempt for another thing?
As far as pick-up racing goes: there's nothing wrong with it, if you enjoy it. Personally, I never did get too much from it, which is why I raced in CTRA servers exclusively when I was still racing LFS. Still, it never offered the same close racing for me that iRacing does with it's SR and iRating. To have a 24 lap race with no more than 0.5 seconds between me and another driver was completely unheard of for me prior to iRacing. Honestly, I've never had more fun in sim racing than now with iRacing.
Atm it's really quite simple: If you like what iRacing offers as opposed to other sims, you race it -- if you can afford it, that is. But that doesn't mean that any other sim or system is worth less. It's what you prefer and nothing more. And that has nothing to do with "marketing crap", as someone put it. Marketing means nothing as soon as you enter a race and either get what you're looking for or don't.
Just browse the iRacing section of RSC.
Its not so much snobbery towards other sims, more the mere suggestion that the iRacing system isn't actually all that good, and people who want more choice for different styles of racing will be shot down in flames in seconds by extreme fanboys. Your right though, the LFS forum can be just as bad.
I do get a vibe of superiority amongst a lot of the iRacing community though. Especially the ones that drive iRacing exclusively.
They often seem unable to comprehend that adding pickup racing and private leagues/servers can only benefit the sim. It will draw more people in, most of whom will take part in the iRacing system as it is now, alongside pickup races/league races.
Luckily it seems the developers are more in tune with what the sim racing community as a whole wants. The fact that they have promised league racing in the future, and have introduced pickup racing, albeit only 1 day per week, shows they are willing to listen.
Erm, but CTRA is pickup racing....
I think iRacing, though it has its flaws is a brilliant system. FOr many people I have spoken to, they have had it for a few days to a month then dissed it because it doesn't fit in with their perceived desire for a racing game, rather than trying it for what it is......
Like many things, when used in conjunction with other games it's knockout. LFS fits the bill for certain criteria and iRacing for another......
Like many things, when used in conjunction with other games it's knockout. LFS fits the bill for certain criteria and iRacing for another......
Which is exactly why I didn't get as much enjoyment from it as I do from iRacing.
Seriously, though, CTRA offered a certain structure to pick-up racing, mainly because of license progression. Also, the yellow flag counts were a very tiny step towards a sort of SR if you cared about the figure (I don't know where CTRA is at now, so the above might be different).
So, you could argue, and some people actually do, that iRacing is nothing more than pick-up racing with a few bells and whistles
. I can agree with that, and I think it's closer to pick-up racing than to a league. But those bells and whistles are what make a huge difference for me. Whether you want to call it structured pick-up racing or flexible league racing doesn't matter one way or the other.It is what it is, and I like what it offers now. Therefore I can only hope that whatever comes (private leagues, true pick-up racing etc.) will not take away from that. I believe that as of yet, iRacing doesn't have the numbers of racers to support pure pick-up racing, leagues and the current system at the same time. Hopefully it can in the future, though, as it will only make the experience better.
btw, I skimmed through a few threads over at RSC and couldn't really find any snobbishness, tbh, but I might have been looking in the wrong threads.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against what it offers now, i just think it limits it badly. I will partake in the iRacing system as it is when i sign up for my own account, (currently i just do some of the oval racing for my brother, and road racing on the 24hours of fun days.) but i wont be signing up for my own account until it offers pickup racing/private league support as well.
I guess it depends on how much time you spend sim racing as well, as to whether the system as it is provides enough entertainment for someones needs.
I cant see me doing more than 1 or 2 races a week in the sytem as it is now, so i definitely require more "fun" races and a league or two to fill in the week. I know plenty of people that feel the same way.
I really dont belive that adding these fetures will take away anything from the current system. Theres no reason that it should if the system is as good as a lot of people insist it is
Lets face it, iRacing could do with a lot more racers. Anything that pulls in the punters has to a good thing.True, the more time one spends sim racing, the more that person will long for more variety. For me, one series and one track a week is just about as much as I can handle, with just a few TTs thrown in in the next higher series to get at least a feel for the car for next season.
That may also be true, but I wouldn't really know. I would guess, however, that the main reason for iRacing not to provide more pick-up racing and leagues is the fear that less people will race under what they (and I, too) regard as the core of the system. As it stands now, it's actually quite amazing that, given the low number of active racers, during the times I usually race in the series I race (skippy), I always find enough racers for at least 3 splits. That said, I never had problems on saturdays even though the 24h du fun were running at the same times. So, maybe the system is in fact good enough.
Absolutely!
Please don't call me snobby or arrogant just because I have a different opinion to your own on the ideal simracing system. Using that mindset I could similarly call you arrogant for preferring a more relaxed setting and not trying iRacing for yourself.
Do you believe that CTRA/UKCT offers a better solution than other servers in LFS? I expect that you do, or you would not have dedicated the amount of time that you have. Does that make you snobby and arrogant for preferring your own system over what is offered in other servers? Does it make you snobby and arrogant for not offering the regular service in CTRA/UKCT as well?
For a serious sim-racer whose goal is to measure themselves with others in a structured environment, iRacing offers a good solution between hardcore league racing and pick-up racing.
The only difference is that in pure pick-up racing, you join a server, race as long as you want, and then leave again. In iRacing you join a race at a set time, get paired up with people of equal skill and with equal intentions and motivations, and leave again. Your results and incidents get recorded and due to this you are much more motivated to race in a highly serious manner.
This is why the quality of racing in (top-field) races in iRacing is the abolute God-tier compared to even the best leagues of other sims, there is just no comparison. This is exactly what I want out of a sim! I want to race with people that know exactly what they're doing! I want to race with people that will take 1 lap to analyse my line and attack based on their knowledge, instead of risking everything by divebombing in. I want to race side-by-side with people of equal skill! I'm trying (you have to trust me here) to not come across as snobby here, but what more does pick-up racing have to offer for someone like me?
My idea of fun is sweating buckets while someone just as fast as me is hounding me down for 28 laps straight. Sure, I enjoy racing with friends every once in a while, but I am still highly competetive, and I'd rather race friends that are just as fast as me to win! Funnily enough, I've made plenty of friends in iRacing like that, because a lot of the time I meet the same people in my races.
Anyway, that is my personal opinion, and in giving that I have omitted an answer to the question that some people have been asking, which is why I stated that "pick-up racing should stay away from iRacing."
I'm just afraid that it would make iRacing move away from the pure form that it has now, into something that is a jack of all trades but a master of none. I feel that the current system allows the true enthusiasts to get exactly what they want out of a racing sim. I have sadly seen friends leave iRacing because of that system and the level of seriousness, and lack of pick-up racing, but I don't believe that it means the system is flawed. It just means that they believed iRacing to be something it does not intend on being.
It's a serious sim, for the serious enthusiast, that aims to create a structured league-like system for like-minded people. I don't think not deviating from that aim (or defending it) is snobby, it's just a solid marketing plan.
The main problem is still that there are only about 6000 subscribers to iRacing, I'd be far more comfortable with a wider variety of race-types if there were more subscribers, but due to my aforementioned issues I don't think changing the iRacing service to suit the needs of a wider variety of people would do the current service any good.
There is a significant difference between preferring a system and regarding sim racers who prefer other systems as subordinates. If that's you, then I've no compunction to resist pointing and laughing.
I prefer having discussions with people who actually take the time to read the posts of others.
"worse of deaf ones are those who don't want to listen"
(freely translated saying we have in Italy)Your mind is sharp enough (probably more than mine) so I expected you to comment on topic my preceding post which was more articulated than my last one but you failed to address the criticism in that like you're doing now. Your attachment to the blunt conclusions is so revealing of it being an obvious tactic to 'win' over the argument.
(Please don't comment on this, it's minor, go on to the next bit)
Whatever changes they decide to make for the future, I already have an opinion regarding the bit "oh let's see no person who's really interested in realistic sim racing has ever had a clutch, so why don't we pretend all the world is using AutoClutch and that noone will noticed our blatant omissions in transm modeling?".
which apparently was made before going public.
Did you miss my emphasis on "more realistic", followed by the remark, "not in absolute terms" ?
And I never said "go away", just be thankful which I'm more than certain you are
You see the rims were coded by an entirely different person from the one who is in charge for suspension modeling, they're different teams, they don't even talk to each other! (last new trend in project management!) and there's no project manager whatsoever to assign goals and resources...
so you'll have to concede your criticism is entirely out of place
Ok, jokes apart, I think I've done a better job at speaking my mind in the post that came before the one you quoted.
I'll gladly let them churn out updates at 15 times the speed of LFS, in the meanwhile I stay on the sidelines, drive my LFS, and since I'm not keen on spending 150+$ on a sealed box, I'll have to make myself an idea about it with the tools I have - which are the same they're using to make me think greatly of them. Only I use them to my advantage.
As for both sims being unfished it's a problem at all, I have my own fish
But without adding more race types they wont get a load more subscribers.
They cant loose by adding more race-types, surely? If the system is as good as you and others think it is, then the devs must have the confidence that by doing something to bring in more punters it will in turn benefit the current system.
The like minded hardcore racers will continue to race the current system, because the current system is brilliant, isn't it? Surely those racers wont bother with slumming it with the masses that chose to pick up race.
So what is iRacing's target audience? How many serious and skilled sim racers are there? How many players can produce lap times within 1% to 2% of top sim players like Greger Huttu (last I read, he won 44 of 45 events he entered)?
If a player isn't one of the highly skilled players, than that player ends up with other similarly skilled players, but that bunches up the cars which leads to more incidents, so those players never get a chance to move on to the better cars.
I've also read statements that iRacing is targeting some real life racers, but skills in one activity seldom translate into skills in another activity even when those activities are similar, in this case real racing versus sim racing. A lot of real life racers aren't going to turn out to be fast sim racers (or vice versa). The track learning experience from a track in iRacing isn't going to help out much more than a similar track from rFactor.
iRacing in it's current form is targeting a relatively small percentage of an already small (compared to other games) niche market, sim racers. I don't see it surving with it's current business and content model for more than 3 years.
If a player isn't one of the highly skilled players, than that player ends up with other similarly skilled players, but that bunches up the cars which leads to more incidents, so those players never get a chance to move on to the better cars.
I've also read statements that iRacing is targeting some real life racers, but skills in one activity seldom translate into skills in another activity even when those activities are similar, in this case real racing versus sim racing. A lot of real life racers aren't going to turn out to be fast sim racers (or vice versa). The track learning experience from a track in iRacing isn't going to help out much more than a similar track from rFactor.
iRacing in it's current form is targeting a relatively small percentage of an already small (compared to other games) niche market, sim racers. I don't see it surving with it's current business and content model for more than 3 years.
I think they did the right decision in releasing the sim as it was in June. For me the issues with the transmission were mostly non-issues (because of the reasons mentioned) and had very little effect on my view of the sim. If your opinion on that is different, feel free to think your way.
Everyone has noticed it. It has been discussed on the forums for ages. It's just not such a huge issue for the vast majority of sim racers, whether they race in real life or not, and again, I believe it's largely because of the reasons I mentioned in my last couple of posts.
I think the system really comes in to its own when it reaches its critical mass. That's not going to happen for quite a while with the current recession. I think part of their current subscription pricing is a little wrong but overall it's excellent.
I checked the qualifying results for one week of the Skip Barber series, the most popular road racing car in the game currently. On a track with lap times in the 1:20 range, there were more than a hundred racers out of 582 total qualifiers within one second of the pole time. Roughly half of the qualifiers were within 2% of the pole.
I'd say the cars are probably more bunched in the higher level races. What you presume there is not a problem, and moving up to the higher level cars is not an issue for a reasonably careful driver, no matter at what iRating level he is. However, I'd guess that the quality of the races varies more in lower level grids, as there can be several reasons for a low rating: (relatively) slow speed, DNFs and being new to the service.
I agree with this, but I'm not sure why it would be a problem. They are different segments of their target group, which probably won't have that much overlap, but such overlap isn't really needed for the service to be successful, in my view.
Altough in theory that may be right, I think is much easier said than done. After all their current system of racing, is one of their main selling points, and problably the one that justifies the most, the fact that you´re paying a subscription, since the content is paid separately. To open up to another type of racing would mean, if it was done on their servers, more work and harder to keep things in control, because people would race more "freely". If they let users have their own servers and run their own leagues, then a lot of people would start to wonder why they need to pay a subscription for a system they don´t use. So, even if the number of subscribers doesn´t reach the number they need to make their product profitable, and they are forced to open up their system to try to get more people in, it won´t be an easy decision to make...
Wonder why it took so many posts to even make you aknowledge there is a problem
"Forums" ? Like what? we are on LFSforum, and this thread had just a few mentions of this limitation in iRacing.
AFAICT iRacing has less licensed users than most other sims, so the vast majority of sim racers is actually racing something else.
The vast majority of iRacing racers might agree, though after blowing 150$+/year +all the extras, many of them are probably too intently watching elsewhere to avoid taking notice of the shortcomings.
Your point basically summed up to, "shifters are not extremely realistic, so why bother simulating a detailed transmission?"
Along the same lines, you could say FFB wheels are not extremely realistic as well, "so why bother adding FFB support?"
I think I acknowledged that there are things to work on with the transmission model in my first reply about the subject a couple of pages ago. What I disagreed with, and continue to disagree, is the severity/importance of the weakness. Also, just to make sure you have at least something close to the correct idea of what the clutch issue with the Solstice in practice means: as far as the feel goes, either using or not using the auto-clutch results in more or less the same behavior if you're not clutching manually, so it's more like having an auto-clutch driving aid always on than not modeling a clutch, in my view. I find it a bit funny that they still haven't made a clear difference between the two options (forcing manual clutching if that's what one prefers), but as said, it probably hasn't been on the top of their list because it's not a big issue for the majority of racers.
I meant the official iRacing forums.
Sure they are. But based on the discussions on the forums, I'd say that the percentage of the more serious racers is much higher there than in most other sims, netKar Pro excluded.
I think current force feedback technology gives a very good presentation of the real life feel of steering. A bigger problem is the brake pedal feel which is far from real life, but that too depends on the quality of the pedals and apparently some setups out there do achieve a very good realistic feel. It would be nice to have "force feedback" shifter for clutchless shifting especially, but I'm not that interested in pondering about what kind of a fudged software representation would be optimal in the meantime.
Sure, Liff. Many people can afford the luxury of an FFB Shifter, which not only would probbably cost upwards of $1000, but be very hard to get right in terms of feel, and would probbably be just as heavy as the G25 wheel unit. Many people don't even have regular shifters, and would be over the moon to have one, such as what the G25 ships with.
Is it just me or do people expect/want/require too much? FFB shifter? Give over..
Is it just me or do people expect/want/require too much? FFB shifter? Give over..
Progression, advancement, evolution or human nature to always want more........damnit they invented the vibrating vagina it's all a matter of supply and demand.
No no, I don't mean it that way. It's more like a dream than a requirement.
I have a low-end system myself, it's just that with shifting feel (or brake feel) I'm not at all satisfied although the steering itself is pretty good. It doesn't mean I would buy a FFB shifter unit myself, it's just that the software fudging they have to do now as far as shifting goes is far from an optimal solution. I'd be surprised if BRD for example hadn't given thought to some kind of a feedback system for shifters. If and when such systems would be ready for mass-market products is a different matter. In the meantime, I won't put that much thought to it.Here's what I don't get:
If you don't own/race in iRacing, why do you complain/point out weaknesses that you know nothing of. Not everyone that has pointed things out here are this way, but it's clear that some people that are bashing iRacing haven't even raced it.
And if you were to peruse the official iRacing forums, you would find that the shortcomings are discussed en mass. There, though, we have the direct ear of the development team, so it serves a purpose. Complaining/Blasting/Bashing/Whatever here serves no purpose but to taint the image of the sim.
No sim is without it's shortcomings. If iRacing isn't for you, it's not for you. I've been around race sims for a good damned long time now, and iRacing provides a sense of competition that no other sim has ever produced.
This is probably a "radical" view, but to me, the system itself is iRacing, the sim is almost secondary. If you plugged LFS into the same system, it would probably be a close analog to iRacing. As far as the costs... it costs a lot more just to pay fees to race in real life for the most part. When I raced karts, i spent 50 or 60 bucks a month for the privelge of driving my own kart in a sanctioned race...
If you haven't raced in iRacing for more than a few races, be a gentleman and excuse yourself from this thread. Speaking about that which you know nothing of is pointless.
If you don't own/race in iRacing, why do you complain/point out weaknesses that you know nothing of. Not everyone that has pointed things out here are this way, but it's clear that some people that are bashing iRacing haven't even raced it.
And if you were to peruse the official iRacing forums, you would find that the shortcomings are discussed en mass. There, though, we have the direct ear of the development team, so it serves a purpose. Complaining/Blasting/Bashing/Whatever here serves no purpose but to taint the image of the sim.
No sim is without it's shortcomings. If iRacing isn't for you, it's not for you. I've been around race sims for a good damned long time now, and iRacing provides a sense of competition that no other sim has ever produced.
This is probably a "radical" view, but to me, the system itself is iRacing, the sim is almost secondary. If you plugged LFS into the same system, it would probably be a close analog to iRacing. As far as the costs... it costs a lot more just to pay fees to race in real life for the most part. When I raced karts, i spent 50 or 60 bucks a month for the privelge of driving my own kart in a sanctioned race...
If you haven't raced in iRacing for more than a few races, be a gentleman and excuse yourself from this thread. Speaking about that which you know nothing of is pointless.
This is an LFS Forum, it'd be rather rude and incosiderate to make this thread exclusively for people who have played iRacing much. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. It may not be the correct one, but they have just as much right to share it as you or the next guy.
This thread is closed
iRacing
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