Quote from DragonCommando :

I never do any of that while driving, its just plain ignorance to do so.

You're right, when you are behind the wheel, you're instantly putting peoples lives in YOUR hands. If one of your hand is doing something other than driving, you gotta think about what you are doing more carefully.

As for ABS, I don't care what it was intended for, my arguement was that it doesn't matter how experienced you are, ABS will slow your car down faster than without ABS no matter what braking technique you use.

Quote from DragonCommando :

Trying to stop a car within 100m at 100km/h isn't possible, even with ABS. I've seen people try to, and it wasn't a pretty scene.

Not tested on same day so some results may seem odd compared to others:

Quote :

- Koenigsegg CCR 31 m:
- Porsche Boxster S = 34.8
- Lamborghini Murcielago = 35.4
- Porsche 911 GT3 = 35.4
- Chevrolet Corvette C5 = 35.5
- Nissan 350Z Track = 35.5
- Honda NSX-R ('02) = 35.7
- Ferrari 360 = 35.7
- Chrysler Crossfire SRT-6 36 m:
- Audi TT 1.8T Quattro = 36.1
- Honda S2000 = 36.1
- BMW Z3 Coupe 3.0i = 36.1
- Porsche 911 GT2 = 36.1
- Porsche 911 Turbo (996) = 36.1
- Mercedes CLK55 AMG = 36.3
- Audi RS4 = 36.4
- BMW M3 E46 = 36.4
- Mercedes C43 AMG = 36.4
- Renault Clio Sport V6 = 36.7
- Porsche 911 Carerra ('02) = 36.9
- Mercedes SL55 AMG = 36.9
- Ferrari 575 = 37.0
- BMW Z4 3.0 = 37.0
- Audi S3 = 37.1
- BMW M Roadster = 37.1
- VW Golf R32 = 37.1
- Honda Civic TypeR = 37.4
- Audi S4 = 37.5
- BMW M Coupe = 37.5
- BMW Z8 = 37.5
- Porsche Boxster ('03) = 37.5
- Mercedes 500SL ('02) = 37.5
- Aston Martin DB7 Vantage = 37.8
- BMW M5 E36 = 37.8
- Alfa 156 GTA = 38.0
- Maserati Coupé Cambiocorsa = 38.0
- Renault Megane 38 m
- Ferrari 550 = 38.2
- Maserati 3200GT = 38.2
- Mercedes SLK32 AMG = 38.2
- Lotus Exige = 39.0
- Mercedes C32 AMG = 39.0
- Jaguar XKR Coupe = 39.4
- Lamborghini Diablo GT = 39.8
- VW Gold Gti = 40.0
- Mitsubishi EVO6 = 40.6
- Porsche 911 Carerra4 (996) = 40.6
- Subaru WRX = 41.0
- Lotus Esprit Sport 350 = 41.9
- VW Golf V6 4Motion = 41.9

Exotic cars sure so here's some more 'normal' ones:

Quote :

Ford Focus 1.6 TDCi Trend Wagon 80 kW
Opel Astra 1.7 CDTI Wagon Cosmo
Skoda Octavia Combi 1.9 TDI Ambiente
Toyota Corolla 2.0 D-4D 116 Linea Sol Wagon

39,7m
38,9m
41,3m
41,7m

Even with added reaction time of one second it should be far less than 100 meters.

Quote from vari :

Even with added reaction time of one second it should be far less than 100 meters.

True, a one second reaction time only adds about 30m onto the stopping distance. But, reaction time is from the point at which you notice the obstacle to when you react to it. But if you don't notice the obstacle like some idiot changing the radio station, looks up, and realizes that there is a stopped car in front of them and slams on the brakes. Their reaction time may have been 1 second, but the perception time is greater then that. It takes humans a little while to identify a problem, figure out what to do, and do it. The reaction time is just the latency between deciding on how to fix a problem, and actually doing it. But you still have to perceive the obstacle, and decide how to react, before you react.

Yes of course, I just put 1 second there as it's commonly used 'by the experts'. Then again it's also clear that it takes longer when the situation is difficult and there's few options to choose from. Funnily enough, an amateur driver often doesn't think in this case and just slams the brakes and then turns the wheel which is exactly the right thing to do in most cases when you have ABS Yet again in some accident reviews it has been so that a driver who is considered to be skillful hasn't reacted for a very long time in any way.

Anyways, you'd have ~2 seconds to react in this case which is plenty in my opinion. (He said it isn't possible at all)

Quote from DragonCommando :

Nobody said modern ABS doesn't stop your car faster, all we are saying is that it's not designed to stop your car faster, it's designed to allow you to steer with the pedal to the floor. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this.

I agree with you on this, though are a couple 'but's.

1) The ABS has been marketed with that stated aim, but then it has evolved over the last 30 years, I wouldn't be too surprised if current systems, especially on faster cars, were able to do better than the mythological skilled driver.

2) If the ABS fitted on most shopping carts were indeed able to break better than the skilled driver, are we sure the manufacturers would say this clearly?

For the sake of safety, I think they could decide to keep it to themselves as well.

Modern ABS can indeed stop the car faster than any driver possibly could. A person can't threshold brake as closely as ABS system can.
Only exception is with studded tyres on ice where locking the tyres is the fastest way to stop.

I think if you have ABS you can stop your car faster, without ABS, IF your speed is more than (as far as I can remember) 40km/h. Above that speed, the electronics works better than a professional driver, and of course much, much better than a regular driver, who just steps on the brake, the wheels are locking, and he just presses the pedal with more power ...

On the other side, if your speed below 40, the locking wheels can stop the car a bit faster (maybe in wet conditions too) than the ABS can do, with well calculated brake force, and let the wheels spin.


About the topic: I think ABS have to work is reversed too ... (there are a lot of comment about its operation), So it have to be implented to the game, because this is a simulator which simulates real cars

I'm talking a big car here guys, like the average canadian car. They go from 100-0 in alot more space than a europian car.

I just realize I put the wrong unit to, I meant feet, not meters.
The crown victoria goes from 100-0km/h within 167ft.

ABS still has the same intended usage no matter how advanced it becomes. My brake book was from 2003, And I'll quote it again.

"ABS or Anti-Lock Brake System is a system encorporated into the computer system of most modern cars, when active it allows a driver to steer thier car in a panic situation where they would normaly lock the brakes and slide."

Why not make an ABS system that is more sensitive when you turn the wheel more then a certain amount. Turn it a little, no ABS. Turn it past a certain point and the ABS is enabled.

Because at high speeds you only turn the wheel a little. ABS won't stop you from lossing contol of a car because of excessive steering, it can only do so much.

Quote from DragonCommando :

I'm talking a big car here guys, like the average canadian car. They go from 100-0 in alot more space than a europian car.

I just realize I put the wrong unit to, I meant feet, not meters.
The crown victoria goes from 100-0km/h within 167ft.

ABS still has the same intended usage no matter how advanced it becomes. My brake book was from 2003, And I'll quote it again.

"ABS or Anti-Lock Brake System is a system encorporated into the computer system of most modern cars, when active it allows a driver to steer thier car in a panic situation where they would normaly lock the brakes and slide."

Well your book isn't openly stating that this is the only use for ABS anyway it just says when it's engaged you can steer round and object other without the threat of locking your brakes it doesn't say that's the only reason for its existance.

My god, you are thick headed.

Long story short, i`ve had my first and only fender bender, because of ABS.
He suddenly braked on clean asphalt, because he thought the car coming the other way didn`t have enough room(narrow road, 2 cars + 10cm).
I was on asphalt+sand, speed 20-30km/h, and used very little brake pressure but the ABS still engaged.
Did not slow down at all. I was just a spectator, waiting for it to stop, it did.. 20-0 in 0.1 seconds. There was no room to go, except.. a big concrete wall.
I preferred his bum, thinking it would be ok, he wasn`t on his brakes. Turned out he was, but the brake lights were not functional. So i got a little kidney massage, some damage. He got none.

From then on, i took out my ABS fuse.. and in time, i managed to avoid similar or worse situations.

From what i read, and from what i observed, the tyre friction is max, when there is a degree of slip, like 5-10%. A little chirp.
My car`s ABS system seems to engage well before it even has 0.1% slip . No thanks. Really.
I never heard "chirp" under heavy braking, dry asphalt. But i got ABS. Me wants chirp. Me haz chirp with no ABS. Chirp it is .

And then i drove some BMWs, VWs, even an old Mercedes. It didn`t suck THAT bad, and it ~changed my opinion about ABS. But not about my car's ABS.
Snow is coming.. Ice + ABS = .. love.

Quote from STF :

...
I was on asphalt+sand, speed 20-30km/h, and used very little brake pressure but the ABS still engaged.
...

That is the difference between old ABS systems and newer ones..
On old systems you stop pressing the pedal because you feel the ABS working and it feels like the car is "floating" when the ABS engages.
This does not give you max brake effect. If you continue to press the pedal harder you will get more brake effect. (giving more brake pressure to the rear wheels and/or the wheels with better traction than the one(s) blocking).

On newer systems there is something called "pannic assistant" (if I remember the correct English word) that automatically gives you max brake effect when the ABS engages.

Quote from DragonCommando :

"ABS or Anti-Lock Brake System is a system encorporated into the computer system of most modern cars, when active it allows a driver to steer thier car in a panic situation where they would normaly lock the brakes and slide."

Stop repeating yourself. Of course ABS is supposed to help you maintain control of the car without having to worry about locking the brakes.

Quote from DragonCommando :

My god, you are thick headed.

And you seem to think that ABS doesn't decrease braking distances, I find this laughable.

Quote from DragonCommando :

It's obvious that BlueFlame doesn't have alot of experiance behind the wheel of a real car.

I've driven all sorts of vehicles over the past years, not all of them have had ABS (bikes don't). You know what saved me from a crash more than once, actualy realizing that you CAN'T STOP, you need to go around regardless of ABS or not. Trying to stop a car within 100m at 100km/h isn't possible, even with ABS. I've seen people try to, and it wasn't a pretty scene.

If people can't comprehend that ABS isn't designed to stop your car faster, thats not my problem as long as I'm not the one they hit. But if someone rear ended me because they didn't have the common sence to either steer or lock and pop, then I'll be damned if I don't give them my two cents.

Nobody said modern ABS doesn't stop your car faster, all we are saying is that it's not designed to stop your car faster, it's designed to allow you to steer with the pedal to the floor. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this.

IT WAS EVEN IN A SERVICE TECH TRAINING BOOK.

"ABS or Anti-Lock Brake System is a system encorporated into the computer system of most modern cars, when active it allows a driver to steer thier car in a panic situation where they would normaly lock the brakes and slide."

I wish I still had the damn book, because then I could scan the whole page, instead of taking it from notes.

Maybe when I actualy have my Service tech license people will actualy listen to me

u kno what ? just put BIGGER and MORE EFFICIENT brakes and you will stop in less than a 100m at 100km/h . u have the rights to not reading me coz i am a teenager and i dont drive yet but i am 99.9% sure that my option will work better than your ABS or no ABS discussion....

Quote from el pibe :

u kno what ? just put BIGGER and MORE EFFICIENT brakes and you will stop in less than a 100m at 100km/h . u have the rights to not reading me coz i am a teenager and i dont drive yet but i am 99.9% sure that my option will work better than your ABS or no ABS discussion....

If your wheels lock with "smaller" brakes, "bigger" brakes wouldn't solve the locking issue. Right?

Quote from The Radness :

If your wheels lock with "smaller" brakes, "bigger" brakes wouldn't solve the locking issue. Right?

(And the 100m should be 100 feet, its corrected in this thread... (approx 33 meters))

Quote from SniperX :

(And the 100m should be 100 feet, its corrected in this thread... (approx 33 meters))

I saw that. But doesn't it take the same amount of force to lock a tire regardless of how "big" the brakes are? Bigger brakes wont make your car stop faster if you're already locking them up in the first place(no abs). That was my point to the person I quoted.

Quote from BlueFlame :

And you seem to think that ABS doesn't decrease braking distances, I find this laughable.

Are you even reading my post? I said NOBODY SAID ABS DOESN'T DECREASE BRAKE DISTANCE.

I'm just saying that its not there to stop your car faster, thats just a side effect of its intended use.

Damnit I wish people would read the whole thread instead of running off at the mouth.

@el pibe,
And how are bigger brakes going to stop the car faster if the small ones already lock the wheels? wheres the added traction come from?

Wider tires are about the only way you can stop a car faster than normal brakes, hell, even drum brakes will stop the average car pretty well.

Quote from DragonCommando :

Are you even reading my post? I said NOBODY SAID ABS DOESN'T DECREASE BRAKE DISTANCE.

I'm just saying that its not there to stop your car faster, thats just a side effect of its intended use.

In a previous post you lol'd at me when I said ABS improves stoppage distances. Make your mind up.

Dude, no I didn't.

And if I did I was refering to older ABS like the cars in LFS would have.

Older ABS does it's job well, unfortunately, the peole who drove those cars equiped with older ABS didn't know that you still have to go around the obstacle, and when they pressed the pedal and felt the car "float" they would re-pump the brakes and that would cause an accident. In worst cases I've heard of people panicing when the ABS kicks in and just completely releasing the brakes.

Modern ABS has improved on the stopping distance when ABS is engaged, but its not the point of it, modern ABS has been improved so that people are more likely to hold the brakes and steer than repump and brace for impact. Unfortuanately many people still do.

On my fathers 99' 6.5l turbo diesel van you can stop faster on most surfaces without ABS than with, But thats 3 tons of truck plus payload, so when the ABS pulses it doesn't keep enough pressure to maintain optimum brake force for the weight. On most cars the pulses are ususaly enough to preven the wheels from locking without loosing a considerable amount of brake force.

On my fathers van, when ABS is engaged the brake distance increases by as much as 5ft, may not sound like much, but it can mean the difference between hitting something or stoping just short.

I will add that you can't steer around in all cases, because sometimes you will be blocked in, but thats no excuse to slam the pedal to the floor.

Let's clear this up a little shall we:
- ABS was designed purely to allow you to steer/control the car whilst you are braking heavily by stopping the wheels from locking
- Modern ABS brakes will usually reduce stopping distances, especially in an emergency braking situation. However, dependent on the driver, road conditions, tyres and a lot of other conditions, it is possible to stop more quickly with ABS disabled, especially on track
- On snow, ice and other slippy surfaces ABS increases stopping distances

And usually the best way to reduce stopping distances is with better tyres, not bigger brakes

Quote from nihilist :

Let's clear this up a little shall we:
- ABS was designed purely to allow you to steer/control the car whilst you are braking heavily by stopping the wheels from locking
- Modern ABS brakes will usually reduce stopping distances, especially in an emergency braking situation. However, dependent on the driver, road conditions, tyres and a lot of other conditions, it is possible to stop more quickly with ABS disabled, especially on track
- On snow, ice and other slippy surfaces ABS increases stopping distances

And usually the best way to reduce stopping distances is with better tyres, not bigger brakes

new account Nihil?