Quote from senn :

IIRC torque steer is when the torque being transferred from the wheels to the ground causes the steering to "tug" one way or another. Generally cars with high output engines and a FF layout are most effected, i can't remember which does it more tho, those with an LSD, or those with an open centre diff....i vaguely recall LSD's being worse, but it has been a while.

TMK it's not something you really want while racing.

im only 15 hehe....im alowwed to be slightly wrong

Although I suppose this technique can and does work in a sim, I think that doing it that way in GPL and probably that vintage of cars was more due to the bias ply tires rather than a driving technique. Bias ply required larger slip angles to work properly and that is true of both the front and rear end.

I also think that LFS, and more so in iRacing, have a very sharp drop off between grip and no grip allowing something like this to be more effective. If you try to do something like that in a real car with radial tires you are going to eat some ditch.

Watching that video I'm amazed at how I haven't tried that before, or never thaught of it, I ususaly find odd ways of doing things and I didn't find that one.

I'm gonna try that out. I can't imagine using that constantly though, it would kill the tires, even used less agressively than that.

Voted no, never used it consciously.

Interesting technique, thanks for bringing this into my attention!
I'm going to try it right now. Something tells me it's not going to work out with 900 degrees..

Quote from DaveWS :

I actually find myself doing this very often when racing the FZR in endurance races. In a lot of situations where the rears are getting hotter than the fronts, if you are controlling oversteer with countersteering then the rears get hotter and hotter while the fronts stay cool. Sometimes balancing oversteer by turning past peak grip at the front removes the oversteer while keeping the tyre temperatures more balanced between front and rear.

Edit: This technique obviously only works at corner entry or mid corner. You always want minimum steering lock on corner exits in RWD cars.

Totally agree, Dave. Couldn't have said it better myself

I've only used that sort of reaction in LFS whenever I've foreseeingly ****ed up beyond the point where counter-steering would help, but never as a turn-taking technique - it's usually part of a precognitive oh shit moment.

IRL I've only done it with rental karts a handful of times on a specific turn of a local outdoor track - a wide left downhill bend that comes right after a chicane, initially had to do that repeatedly one summer day they had the sprinklers on and water had run down the outside of the track causing the outter right to get wet if you wanted to stay on line over the kerbs for a good chicane exit; then it stuck as a habit even on dry conditions with the shoddy tyres their karts have.

Wow, I never really thought of anti-countersteering. Don't know If I ever used it, but I'm not sure if I got the whole thing right.
So, If the rear loses grip, while let's say turning left, instead of countersteering to the right you turn more to the left, right? Thats nuts
Smaller slides you can control with fast countersteering, but for the bigger ones, don't think this would help, or at least it's not the fastest way to correct your mistake.
I say precountersteer is the best option of all :P

Quote from RevengeR :

So, If the rear loses grip, while let's say turning left, instead of countersteering to the right you turn more to the left, right? Thats nuts

If you keep on steering to the left while you are sliding, it just makes your car slide in a bigger angle, and you lose time. I can't see to point of anti-countersteering For drifting I'm sure it works, but when you're going for a great laptime, it doesn't.

I dont really find this take very logical to be honest let me explain....

In a corner all four tyres have a lateral force on them due to tyre slip angle. When the rear tyres break away the fronts still have that lateral force whereas the rears clearly dont (well they have less anyway). So in order to bring the car back to a non sliding state, that lateral force either needs to be regained at the rear or lost at the front, agreed?

Now this is where this technique confuses me.... clearly regaining grip at the rear isnt an option and as people have said the only thing left is steering. So in order to reduce grip at the front there are two options:

a) a normal counter steer technique - only a few degrees of steering in the opposite direction before the slip angle of the tyres is reduced sufficiently so that the lateral force from the front and rear tyres is balanced and grip regained.

b) the 'understeer' technique - turning the wheel further raises slip angle above what is optimum and therefore lateral force decreases and the tyres begin sliding. However, no matter how much steering input you apply and therefore however much the tyres are sliding, there will still be a lateral force keep the front end turning.

So WHY would you CHOOSE to turn the wheel a lot - say 180° minimum to achieve the same affect of turning the wheel maybe 5° or 10° maximum for ANY type of oversteer situation???

Now what happens if the rear has broken away big style. With a conventional technique you carrying on applying opposite lock in the direction you're already turning the wheel until there is little or quite probably no lateral force on the front tyres and the control is regained.

But with this understeer technique you cant do that. even if you apply full lock to give the front tyres the biggest slip angle possible and they are sliding across the road, they're STILL going to have a lateral force on them accelerating them towards the corner and that's not going to help regain control at the rear.

So what im saying is, although this technique does work (im certainly not arguing that), it requires far more effort and leaves nothing left to cope if the initial reaction doesnt generate suffcient understeer to cope with the oversteer!

But finally, talking of this being used in an LX6, there are some Caterhams that have been prepared for track day type instruction lessons where a brake pedal for the instructor has been installed. When the pupil loses loses control of the car (which is almost inevitable!!), the instructor simply stands on the brake pedal to lock up the front wheels in order to make sure the front slides instead of the whole car spinning! That would be an interesting one to test in LFS.

Quote from andy_bonjon :

But finally, talking of this being used in an LX6, there are some Caterhams that have been prepared for track day type instruction lessons where a brake pedal for the instructor has been installed. When the pupil loses loses control of the car (which is almost inevitable!!), the instructor simply stands on the brake pedal to lock up the front wheels in order to make sure the front slides instead of the whole car spinning! That would be an interesting one to test in LFS.

That would require a brake balance pushed more to the front. Even if not, the rear would also lock up. You don't want to lock your wheels too often in the LX, nor in any cars.
I was wondering why people need such a difficult technique? If you lose the rear like that, you're doing something very very wrong. When you're entering a corner, or in mid-corner, you can predict what the car will do, or how it will behave with the current inputs. As for an example (might be just my personal style), RAC and XRG and also LX cars I drive with minimal steering inputs in corners. I mean just before I enter the turn, I shake the car just a tiny bit, to prepare it for the corner entrance. Therefor I need minimal wheel movement to turn the car. Also on curbs, when I hit them I use a bit of countersteer when I go over them and land, to prevent losing the rear.

I just say when you need moves like that understeering maneuver, boy you are doing something really wrong

The initial video Jeff posted is highly overdone to highlight what's going on. Times I've done that in LFS with an LX6 required less steering lock (and not close-to-instantaneous as I don't use a joystick or a low locking wheel). Locking the brakes would of simply put me into the barrier and continuing to countersteer would either bring me to a crawl and completely off the line or end up with me facing the wrong direction. As I see it, it's just an alternative - something extra to have in your toolbag. Might come in handy in obstacle avoidance at speed as well.

If you watch the H2H Allstar Event next Saturday (shameless plug, I know), I'm sure you'll see plenty of this technique in the LX6 at AS Cadet Reverse, especially T1...

Isn't the MRT also a prime candidate for induced understeer, especially in fast corners?

I used to drive the RAC using induced understeer because it's difficult to set up the suspension properly. Thus I found it more comfortable to use induced understeer to counter eventual oversteer.
However I seldomly use the technique on other cars. That's partly so because my favorite cars don't lend themselves to the technique.

Vain

I don't use this technique. So I see on the video that LX6 now has more grip. If I'm oversteering I turn in the other side quickly and release throttle. If the oversteer is in brake moment I touch little gas and brake and this give me more grip on rear wheels and less in front wheels.

In real life if you use this technique I think that you loose your tires in 2 laps

Like others, I use that, but only when I screwed up in the first place, not lap after lap. (In an LX6 anything that can happen does happen. yes, even a meteor striking the car is more likely in an LX6)

Quote from andy_bonjon :

Now this is where this technique confuses me.... clearly regaining grip at the rear isnt an option and as people have said the only thing left is steering. So in order to reduce grip at the front there are two options:

a) a normal counter steer technique - only a few degrees of steering in the opposite direction before the slip angle of the tyres is reduced sufficiently so that the lateral force from the front and rear tyres is balanced and grip regained.

b) the 'understeer' technique - turning the wheel further raises slip angle above what is optimum and therefore lateral force decreases and the tyres begin sliding. However, no matter how much steering input you apply and therefore however much the tyres are sliding, there will still be a lateral force keep the front end turning.

So WHY would you CHOOSE to turn the wheel a lot - say 180° minimum to achieve the same affect of turning the wheel maybe 5° or 10° maximum for ANY type of oversteer situation???

The issue is if you need to slow down and or turn as well as correct the oversteer to keep from running out of track. Countersteering reduces the lateral force at the front tires, so the car turns less and decelerates less than it would with induced understeer. If you brake while countersteering, the pavement applies a backwards, off centered force on the sideways car, worsening the oversteer.

Induced understeer increases tire scrub at the front, resulting in some braking effect, slowing a car down, perhaps enough to make the turn. Also braking can be done if the tires are turned inwards sufficiently to keep the front end washed out even due to the weight transfer from braking.

Quote :

with this understeer technique you cant do that. even if you apply full lock to give the front tyres the biggest slip angle possible and they are sliding across the road, they're STILL going to have a lateral force on them accelerating them towards the corner and that's not going to help regain control at the rear.

The point of the induced understeer is that the fronts have much more excessive slip angle than the rears, and should end up with less lateral grip, washing the front end out, correcting the oversteer, while slowing the car a bit. This is best shown in that LX6 video in the right turn at Blackwood where the car is going fast enough to clearly see the transition from oversteer into understeer.

Quote from RevengeR :

I was wondering why people need such a difficult technique?

Depends on the car and/or the game. In real life, the reason given was that some non-downforce cars turned poorly unless setup with some oversteer, and lift throttle oversteer had to be balanced with induced understeer during corner entry. Also in high speed flat out (full throttle) turns, a bit of induced understeer would stabilize the car into a 4 wheel "squirm" (not quite a full drift).

Back to racing games, induced understeer during corner entry is a common method used in Grand Prix Legends, especially for right foot brakers. The coast side of the differential is setup a bit loose for lift throttle (engine braking) induced oversteer. The driver brakes before corner entry, then moves his right foot back to the throttle, entering the turn faster than normal. Using induced understeer inputs, combined with lift throttle inputs, the driver controls the rate of turn in and deceleration as the car approaches the corner apex. Because of the large slip angles of the cars in Grand Prix Legends, it's more obvious what is going on.

With GPL, induced understeer can be used to improve lap times. For other games, it may only be a recovery method as opposed to a deliberate method. It works with the LX6 in LFS, and just about any car in GTR2, but I don't know if it could be used to improve lap times the way it does in GPL.

Quote from Shotglass :

im pretty sure thats the hairpin in monaco which requires a lot of steering

Sorry I couldn't find a better example.

But if you looks at a lot of shots from the 60s the driver often has his arm right over with a lot of lock on even in faster corners.

hey .

looking at that video ..it looks like it was preformed on a 180 degre wheel?

either that or the flash was driving

I remember seeing Michael Shumacher do exactly this at a pouring wet race in Brazil a couple of years ago, the onboard camera captured it very well. A quick junk of the wheel to break the fronts and make them slide to balance the car.

The video explains it better than the text ever could

It's a really interesting technique though and so counter-intuitive. As someone said before, I don't think I could turn the wheel fast enough to do it unless I set my wheel up with something silly like 180 degrees of movement.

I'll have to give it a go though, I'm so slow at catching oversteer, and this is a method that lets you catch it a (relatively) long time after it's started.

So, all of you has came to a conclusion or not?

Is this technique valid, is it used in real life?

Is there a pair in real life to compare with it?

Is there any video, any real driver, to confirm something, or not?

Because I don't feel the LX6 behavior both natural neither predictable.

Some caterham video?

i think its perfectly valid.

ive seen it preformed a number of times in real life racing and also seen this preformed in the mud during rally races.

also the video declaires that its valid in lfs.

i have another method ive used to enduce understeer in a rwd.

i dab the brakes shifting my weight to the front then i steer sharply and floor it ,this locks the front wheels making you understeer..

works best on gripper rears...otherwise you just go into a drift :P

I remember using WR sets for the Formula BMW that were very oversteery, especially during corner exits. As a counter-measure, I entered the corners faster and earlier, and I noticed that my oversteer issue was gone because I managed to understeer first. Then the oversteer compensated for the understeer I initiated. I guess I did this understeer technique but ever since I got the DFP, I never got the courage to use that technique.

Interesting, it reminds me of trying to drive a rwd car in the snow, downhill..kinda. Regardless, I wouldn't use the "technique", because it would severely damage tires, flat spots, etc etc. In counter steering you'll damage tires also, but I wouldn't think as badly, and the material lost on the tire would be more even, where this idea should give deep, nasty flat spots. At least in my experience.