not
not
You really believe that it is interesting for a worldwide automotive brand marketing to have it's products inside a computer simulation? IMO, it is not interesting at all for them for marketing....it requires a lot of work and bring them less than any advertisment page they buy in any local newspaper.
That is why sims developers usually have to pay for it. If they do not pay for it...it's because the brand decided to sponsor them that way, or because it is interesting for other reasons. But certainly not marketing.
I don't understand why LFS developers decided to put some unpopular car like scirocco, I really don't understand this
I see that people who buys that car they are VW Fans or dumb people who has money and don't know what to buy . In my opinion I don't think that this car deserved to be in lfs. I really don't wait for this car, I just waiting for graphic improvements and other stuff. I think that VW company paid to LFS developers that we could play with this car 
attracting us to buy this car. 
And why the f*** many people plays rfactor ??? Because in there is abillity to edit cars to actualize your project or your dream car or something like that
Thats why rfactor is so successful. I can play there with my dream car BMW M3 E30!!!!:auto: ,In here there isn't any car that I like, like a Nissan skyline,Z350 mitsubichi lancer evolucion,subaru impreza wrx, BMW M3 ,muscle cars but here we can see non of them... But somehow I really like this game because it has something unusual that other games doesn't have(of course there is much to improve..)
So If here would be veh modification this game would be the best
because developers doesn't have a taste of cars.
Thats my opinion
Now I will have much critic :jedi::chair::fence:
I see that people who buys that car they are VW Fans or dumb people who has money and don't know what to buy . In my opinion I don't think that this car deserved to be in lfs. I really don't wait for this car, I just waiting for graphic improvements and other stuff. I think that VW company paid to LFS developers that we could play with this car attracting us to buy this car. And why the f*** many people plays rfactor ??? Because in there is abillity to edit cars to actualize your project or your dream car or something like that Thats why rfactor is so successful. I can play there with my dream car BMW M3 E30!!!!:auto: ,In here there isn't any car that I like, like a Nissan skyline,Z350 mitsubichi lancer evolucion,subaru impreza wrx, BMW M3 ,muscle cars but here we can see non of them... But somehow I really like this game because it has something unusual that other games doesn't have(of course there is much to improve..)
So If here would be veh modification this game would be the best
because developers doesn't have a taste of cars.
Thats my opinion
Now I will have much critic :jedi::chair::fence:
Dumb people who don't know what to buy? Listen - not everyone is into JDM Tyte cars like Skylines and Evo's, maybe someone actually wants a comfortable, economically friendly car that gets them around town in reasonably nice style - some people want a car to do one thing - be a car.
The devs didn't choose the Scirocco out of every car ever invented, maybe do a tiny tiny bit of research before you make such a stupid claim - in my opinion. Its more than likely that Volkswagon approached the LFS team and provided the data, drawings, blueprints..etc for free. The devs simply cannot go to Nissan and demand the rights to copy their cars in the game - they have to pay and trust me, its a lot of money.
25 pages devoted to one German econobox , could you imagine the amount of threads if a truly lust worthy car was introduced to LFS.
All this agro and frustration over a hatchback seems slightly silly,content is always welcomed and appreciated but guys 25 plus pages devoted to a girlfriend mobile ..
All this agro and frustration over a hatchback seems slightly silly,content is always welcomed and appreciated but guys 25 plus pages devoted to a girlfriend mobile ..
I s'pose they could be playing r-factor etc. instead of posting here. Which is the lesser of two evils?
Looks like a troll factory has exploded in Lithuania, the wind had them scattered all over lfsforum
My pc is devoid of Rtractor thank you very much
But i may slip back into my Shelby Mustang..
If I had to pick to learn one single thing about marketing in my life is that marketing with no financial cost is what firms will look for.
I stated my reasons, I'll add one more. The pool of licensed drivers in LFS is around 25.000 (IIRC, please don't hesitate to correct me on that one). The average cost of distributing VW's image (cost/driver) is 0€. You could say $0, $C0, AUS$0, £0, Y0, etc.
Then comes the second aspect of marketing : the expected return on investment. To put it in very simple term, you can calculate the return multiplicator, which you calculate by dividing the total profit by the total cost.
Let's assume that the time dedicated to help Eric with the model and Scawen with the physics doesn't require much financial investment by VW. (I lied, the average cost in the first part is actually higher than 0, but closer to 0 than to 0.01). If no LFS driver purchase the car from VW, you will have a return multiplicator close to 0. If one guy buys it, the multiplicator will be close to the infinite. If 100 drivers buy it (positive outcome rate of 0.4% which is very very low for a marketing campaign), the firm will have 100 times that multiplicator (and instantly 100*(22.000-'whatitcosttoproducethecar') in VW's pocket).
The second aspect of marketing, apart from selling a product, is how does it affect the brand's image. There is always one positive and one negative outcome. The negative is that it may seem the brand sells itself short by not asking money for putting the car in LFS. On the other hand, being in LFS is a guarantee that you are confident enough to expose your new car without compromise, or conditions that state that the car must be faster than the FZ5 (which is what happens in most racing games).
For a cost of 0, all those aspects are very very very very very very interesting for any firm.
I was thinking yesterday when the servers were being upgraded, what will we all do when the scirocco is launched?
I for one don't want to be left in limbo, with no expected content to avidly wait for, but I think I've found the solution... Ferrari Challenge on the PS3, this too had upcoming content, that they then failed to deliver - there's also a similar lack of updates from the dev team.
So when this is all over, if anyone is left with the nagging feeling that their life has no meaning or direction now that there's no LFS thread to complain about missing content on, head over to the Eutechnyx forum and create yourself an account
I for one don't want to be left in limbo, with no expected content to avidly wait for, but I think I've found the solution... Ferrari Challenge on the PS3, this too had upcoming content, that they then failed to deliver - there's also a similar lack of updates from the dev team.
So when this is all over, if anyone is left with the nagging feeling that their life has no meaning or direction now that there's no LFS thread to complain about missing content on, head over to the Eutechnyx forum and create yourself an account
Seeing the world in % doesn't always give you a realistic picture. But hey, that's why so many people buy german cars - because they don't lose that many % of their investment when they re-sell it. In actual currency they lose more than what - for example - a french car would have cost, but still they go "hey, I only lost 20% in the first year, and your piece of sh!t can hardly be sold anymore."
Long story put short: Think % where it makes sense to think %.
Is it? We'd like to think so... but maybe it's a reason for the delay. Maybe the XRT, the FXO or even the XRG eats the Rocco for breakfast around some tracks.
So it takes time to disguise this a bit.
If they sell one Scirocco because of LFS (which is hard to prove anyway), they have a profit of maybe 20000 EUR. And yes, if their investment was 1 EUR (which is hard to prove anyway), their relative gain was 20000%. But the absolute gain was still only 19999 EUR.
That's why car producers ask all the time for sims to include their products, but for an unknown reason sims developers insist to refuse and pay license fees
Sorry, it does not cost 0 because it requires time from technical staff. And it costs even more because it requires to work on new things that can not be reused later (if as you think this is for marketing). Time consuming, not reusable=>expensive.
And how does it compare with alternatives??
Imagine you are VW marketing and compare it with arcade game like NFS.
NFS guys pay the licence, come and scan the car shape, do not take time from your technical staff because they do not ask for any data or technical question, and sell a game to millions users in which the car looks better than real, handles easy and reaches 400 kph. Not mentioning the massive advertisment campaign NFS has.
Now, the week after NFS team leaved, you receive a call saying LFS want to use your car. They need a lot of data and time from technical staff, it will not look fancy like your other advertisment, it has a very limited audience, no advertisment campaign, and they will not pay a license for it. You accept that only if you have another idea than doing marketing with it. R&D, maybe later organizing events with the sim...etc.
Je vois bien que tu tiens a cette idee, mais c'est vraiment tire par les cheveux. LFS? Combien de divisions?
To sum it up, who benefits more from having a car from a famous brand in a sim? The car producer or the sim? So who pays for it?
I don't need a Scirocco in LFS, i have already one in Reallife
Ok I understand you ,but I don't agree with this a confortable car maybe, economically no! friendly yes, So if this car is so economic why it's so unpopular ? In Lithuania there are no single man who bought this car ,because it costs much and its not for family it's just for youth people and those people I think don't have enough money to buy this expensive car(there are hundreds cars that you can buy cheaper and more economical than this...) . Thats why that car is unpopular :detective I'll gonna search how much VW company sold those scirocco
And I think that the number of sold cars will be regrettable But I changed my mind. I see that I'll never gonna drive that car so it's good idea to put in LFS
People really know how to have fun with those scirocco :uglyhamme http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElKRVoDQk2g
@ Juls : Excellent French, I'm amazed !
You seem to be familiar with economic concepts a bit, so you've got an interesting point. It is true that if VW 'invests' with LFS, it's alternative with NFS (it's opportunity cost) may be extremely high. And it is also true that spending time helping the LFS devs costs money. But relatively to what a company pays for normal marketing campaign, it is a very good opportunity to choose the LFS alternative (which does not take too much time/money to implement, so it can be done aside from a bigger stuff).
Why hasn't the Scirocco been in the NFS series then ? We don't know yet. The franchise is developping three more games with different customer targets. So perhaps it will be in one of those. But choosing LFS over NFS is a profiency in customer targeting. In LFS, the average and median of the player's age should be between 25 and 35, which is a very good target for VW, who sells the Scirocco as a sporty family car, and 25 and 35 is usually the age where people start creating families. On the other hand, the NFS customers are usually younger, and most of them aren't even allowed to drive a car, possibly. This is why that if they sell their license to NFS, NFS are screwed mainly, but if they work with LFS they both gain something : LFS gains a real car, and LFS provides the Scirocco an audience that is perhaps more likely to be interested in the car.
But you have got very good points ! And what is interesting with marketing is that there is no alternative better than another objectively. Each has its pros and cons, and the main decision to engage in a marketing plan is the cost-risk expectations.
@Bandit77 : I'm sorry, I don't wanna seem offensive but I fail to see the logic in your post.
First of all, the VWS will be eaten for sure by the TBOs in LFS (less power, more weight). It will be slightly faster than the XRG/XFG (more torque because of the turbo, and possibly supers), and perhaps on an equal basis, depending on the quality of the locked setup provided to the players.
But for the percentage part, I don't know why you rant. You even agree with your german car example (and I even agree with french cars being totally shitty). Buying and reselling a german car will result in them losing 20% of the value, while in your example the french car will result in something like 95% of loss. Which would you choose then? You might say it is not comparable with the difference in financial value at purchase. But if you put the german car at the same price as the french, the german car will still be a very good alternative. And the % make all sense here.
I agree, sometimes economists overdo the statistic stuff. But when speaking of monetary value, the % and the ratios are the only thing to look on. A firm will not invest only if what they get is above a specific amound of €, $ or £. They will invest if their expected return is 104% or 108%, no matter what the amount is.
About the absolute/relative gain. You are right, with one sell, they will only get 19999e. But if you had to choose between an alternative where it costed 500e per car to advertise it and sell it, and an alternative where it costed 1e, which one would you choose? More absolute value equals higher relative value (obviously). But when thinking in large scales, relative values are more easy to work with and generally more appropriate
You seem to be familiar with economic concepts a bit, so you've got an interesting point. It is true that if VW 'invests' with LFS, it's alternative with NFS (it's opportunity cost) may be extremely high. And it is also true that spending time helping the LFS devs costs money. But relatively to what a company pays for normal marketing campaign, it is a very good opportunity to choose the LFS alternative (which does not take too much time/money to implement, so it can be done aside from a bigger stuff).
Why hasn't the Scirocco been in the NFS series then ? We don't know yet. The franchise is developping three more games with different customer targets. So perhaps it will be in one of those. But choosing LFS over NFS is a profiency in customer targeting. In LFS, the average and median of the player's age should be between 25 and 35, which is a very good target for VW, who sells the Scirocco as a sporty family car, and 25 and 35 is usually the age where people start creating families. On the other hand, the NFS customers are usually younger, and most of them aren't even allowed to drive a car, possibly. This is why that if they sell their license to NFS, NFS are screwed mainly, but if they work with LFS they both gain something : LFS gains a real car, and LFS provides the Scirocco an audience that is perhaps more likely to be interested in the car.
But you have got very good points ! And what is interesting with marketing is that there is no alternative better than another objectively. Each has its pros and cons, and the main decision to engage in a marketing plan is the cost-risk expectations.
@Bandit77 : I'm sorry, I don't wanna seem offensive but I fail to see the logic in your post.
First of all, the VWS will be eaten for sure by the TBOs in LFS (less power, more weight). It will be slightly faster than the XRG/XFG (more torque because of the turbo, and possibly supers), and perhaps on an equal basis, depending on the quality of the locked setup provided to the players.
But for the percentage part, I don't know why you rant. You even agree with your german car example (and I even agree with french cars being totally shitty). Buying and reselling a german car will result in them losing 20% of the value, while in your example the french car will result in something like 95% of loss. Which would you choose then? You might say it is not comparable with the difference in financial value at purchase. But if you put the german car at the same price as the french, the german car will still be a very good alternative. And the % make all sense here.
I agree, sometimes economists overdo the statistic stuff. But when speaking of monetary value, the % and the ratios are the only thing to look on. A firm will not invest only if what they get is above a specific amound of €, $ or £. They will invest if their expected return is 104% or 108%, no matter what the amount is.
About the absolute/relative gain. You are right, with one sell, they will only get 19999e. But if you had to choose between an alternative where it costed 500e per car to advertise it and sell it, and an alternative where it costed 1e, which one would you choose? More absolute value equals higher relative value (obviously). But when thinking in large scales, relative values are more easy to work with and generally more appropriate
It will also have more rubber and better suspensions, which will offset the increased mass somewhat in corners. R_S would give it an even bigger edge over both the XFG and the XRG.
Would be interesting to play a little with tweak to get a first taste of how fast the VWS will be.
whatever the reason for the delay, it's starting to get lame.
i've always been sympathetic to the cause, and supportive of the devs choice to work to quality goals, and not to deadlines, but the development of LFS has ground to a halt and i don't think they are being very honest about the situation.
it's sad.
i've always been sympathetic to the cause, and supportive of the devs choice to work to quality goals, and not to deadlines, but the development of LFS has ground to a halt and i don't think they are being very honest about the situation.
it's sad.
LFS is fast becoming a tired old game, developed by a group of tired old devs who are showing all the signs that they have lost the love, the interest & the passion for making LFS into what it could have been. It seems to have lost its way whilst others have pushed forward & evolved.
Unless S3 is the reason, Live for Speed is dying :tombstone. I see many racers leaving it behind & heading for greener pastures.
Unless S3 is the reason, Live for Speed is dying :tombstone. I see many racers leaving it behind & heading for greener pastures.
Hey guys i just drove the VW in Singleplayer and its not that good , its fun but not as everyone expected 
How did i manage to play the VW before it came out ?
I have a machine , i put in the date and time and it transportes me anywhere and any time/date i want The date was 20.06.2009 , driving the VW on South City 7
How did i manage to play the VW before it came out ?
I have a machine , i put in the date and time and it transportes me anywhere and any time/date i want
The date was 20.06.2009 , driving the VW on South City 7You mean it's not a glorified shopping cart after all?
To keep it short: I just wanted to point out that the Rocco might appear to be not such a great car - which would be a bit bad for VW as they didn't even get money for it.
About the german/french car example: you got me wrong.
Short version: if the 20% loss of the german car is bigger in actual currency than the french car's 40% (I think 95% is a bit over the top for one year), I'd sure go for the french car.
Basically I'm ONLY interested in the actual loss, not the %.
If the 500e per car sells me 50 cars and the 1e only sells me one....
You see? The ratio of the 500e-investment is MUCH worse, but the actual gain is a lot higher.
I hope VW took into account that kids do not buy cars and I dont think they can influence their parents. LFSers are maybe far fewer but percentage interested in VW could be much more. Marketing in arcade games is I think much more long term.
I think it's the other way round but you've got the idea here. Marketing in arcade is more short-term with a broader audience, but that will faint after a year or so. (the highest activity life-span of a NFS title is around 6-7 month). LFS, on the other hand, as other simulators, may have a less wide audience, but will last for longer
@ Bandit 77, I understand your point totally
To make my long story shorter, firms are more interested in the relative profit/loss than the currency counterpart When we look at the subprime crisis for example, losing 5 billions for a bank may seem HUGE when looking at the face value, but compared to the total assets-pool monetary value, it may be around 5 to 20% (depending on the bank's size), which isn't *that* bad .But don't worry, at the level of amounts we are using in our everyday life, I too use the cash value. However, when I want to import/resell a car, I use the percentage to calculate the value of the investment I will do. E.g., I might gain 1000€, but it would be only a gain of 5%, which isn't that attractive at all
I hope they do not lack so much common sense.
If I have to chose between two employees...one which sold one car for a 1 euro campaign....and other who sold 100 cars for a 10000 euros campaign, I take the second one...unless the first one accepts to be paid with a percentage instead of currency of course.
We live from volume*ratio...not only ratio.
Hi
Sciroccooo..... Waiting...
Sciroccooo..... Waiting...
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[MERGED] Scirocco enquiry threads
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