Sam's explanation is good. But I doubt you'll get it.
I'll just say this and hope you understand. Speed has everything to do with locking up tires with brake systems that we have on cars today.
Speed = energy. In order to slow down, you have to get rid of that energy. Brakes do that. So, the faster you go, the more energy there is to dissipate.
I suspect you are under the impression that a good brake system should be strong enough to lock the wheels at any speed.
First, that would be stupid. Locked wheels don't slow down as quickly as threshold braking. Secondly, the brake system would be big and heavy. Not worth it. Third, it's very dangerous to lock up at high speeds. Could you imagine how quickly you would flat spot a tire at 150mph if you locked a tire?
And last, you only need enough brake on the car to take your tire up to the optimum slip angle for threshold braking. Any more than that, the tire just locks up and you don't slow down.
You do lock tires, because the brakes are set to threshold brake around the top speed of the car. As you slow down, there will be enough friction in the brakes to lock the wheel. That is why you see lockups. And yes, that is when the driver or the ABS must modulate the brakes to make sure that you don't lock up a tire.
Try it yourself with your ABS in your car (someplace safe, it would be best to do it on a track). Go as fast as you safely can, slam on the brakes as hard as you can. If you have decent tires on a decent surface, you will NOT lock up until you slow down a lot. You can confirm this by feeling the ABS kicking the brake pedal.
No. I have had all of that and tried many different variations while driving only LFS. And I have damper on my old set of pedals that I setup for LFS and kept installed for iRacing. The first thing I did in the solstice was lock the brakes. So no matter how right I thought I was those wern't the cards I was dealt in the situation. So I had to drive the car different.
So I mean like....putting a damn adjustment on my poor habits I could get away with before.
I hope that doesn't sound harsh. I still try to drive iRacing like I drive LFS because a lot of that is embedded in my brain at this point. While I am able to use plenty of technique in iRacing I use in LFS, I still have to break habits and look at what is required rather then what I think is correct beyond just usage of brakes.
There are many posts to read, so I'll ask something to confirm if I understood what is going on in this thread.
Beside other critics, there is one about braking in iRacing that says that you can't press your brake pedal to the metal without lock up the tyres?
If so, well, I think it is just a matter of calibration, because I don't have this problem.
I can't understand the exactly point of this thread (except under a fanboy vision): you all are saying that iRacing has worst physics than LFS, ignoring the fact that it is a solid engine with more than a decade of development and a bunch of staff around it, since real cars data and pilots and lot of beta testers along more than 2 years, and one of the lacks of the engine is about brakes?
Anybody here who is bashing the engine has tested it? Because I can't see where iRacing physics is less than LFS. Could someone reduce this bible into 3 lines, please?
Well.. you just went against your point with the neutral throttle and more lock. That's obviously not the fastest way as all you have to do is get ALL the way into the throttle (making the car actually rotate) and use LESS steering. Not only will you make the corner easier but you will also be faster.
Second, who else is having that brake problem? I have actually no idea why you would have a problem, and me with the same software have never had that problem. Are you saying that when you hit the pedal initially that the brakes in-game doesn't "activate" or are you refering to after so much pressure that something is wrong? I'm still not convinced it's a software problem since my brakes are perfectly fine.
Actually, the reason isn't brake fade alone but inertia plays a role too. The quicker the wheels rotate, the more brake force do you need to make them stop, thus, the quicker you go, the less likely your tires are to lock up.
EDIT: damn, missed a page of replies, so disregard.
But, for a Skip Barber as example, where is the data informing how much energy the brakes can dissipate? where is the information?
iRacing has this information, they have the real car to compare. So, if it lock up the tyres ate "high" speed, I would consider that it is correct.
About F1 cars, when it will lock up? At what speed? 150mph is a number from where? Is it sure that them will not lock up at high speed? What is "high speed"?
Just.. read the bloody thread You're acting like you just arrived at the end of a conversation and missed what was being said. The whole conversation is here, so go read it. If you can't be arsed doing that, then you have no business posting in the thread either.
Doesn't sound harsh in any way. I agree fully with everything you've stated in this thread. So that means all of us need to be adjustable, flexible, in all aspects of life. Software designers and users. My gripe is that I've always had to go to great extremes to get controller satisfaction with KaemmerWare. Oddly enough, not with other software including CrammondWare which has about the worst controller implementation I've ever seen. I am not trying to drive iRacing like I drive LFS. It requires different technique. (Which leads me to my opinion about which is more realistic in the physics department.)
In all sims, we have to adjust to characteristics of the cars and physics. In all things in RL too. I've no problem with that. I have a problem when the adjustablity is unachievable in a reasonable manner, considering that it can be easily compensated for in the software.
Yes, I use that. I also use like I stated. I've also used the opposite of what you suggest, using full throttle to induce understeer at corner exit. And of course scrub braking by turning in hard early and allowing the car to drift past the apex. (Using the word drift in the conventional sense - So, under to neutral drift.) All probably real techniques depending on how the car is weighted and what the shape of the road underneath is. There is simply something wrong about the grip in iRacing. It has been stated in this thread in different ways. Can't pin it down to a single phrase right now. It's a matter of when and under what circumstances it works.
So here is a diagram of my sim experience: My Pedal
All the way up-----Start of resistance-----All the way down
iRacing brake meter
No brakes---------Half value--------------Full value
iRacing car behaviour
----------Brakes lock
I wouldn't call it a physics problem. I like the way the brakes act and feel in iRacing. (Although I'm starting to question things like the Mazda locking at full speed in a straight line based on what I'm reading here.)
What bothers me is how early in the slope the cars lock. I have to do it by muscle memory alone. I have no other feedback. I do not find confidence, control, or consistency in the controller implementation. It ruins my racing experience. It is not realistic or simulatory if we base it on what I am able to do in a real car.
Real brakes: Pedal
Up------Start of resistance-----Lock at 25mph----All the way down
What we feel
---------Resistance-------------Less restistance
---------Car pitching forward----Car leveling
---------Car slowing------------Car not slowing as much
---------Pressure against harness and wheel and pedals
Based on this diagram, the pedal slope in iRacing actually makes sense. Except that the first diagram illustrates my pedal and many others, and we can't feel any of those other things for less than 20 grand. In real life I really don't hear the tires often. In sim life I'm cool with using sound to provide feedback, realistic or not. I do not find the sounds in iRacing to help much with the braking. Nor do I get much from the cockpit movement. So what I need is some feeling in the foot. Out of all the things DK&C could implement, braking controller slope seems like it would be the easiest. Not that I would know.
So, yes. I would say it's a software problem. I would say they are ruining a really good physical model by making it unaccessible to certain users without a lot of experimentation. I don't want to spend my time trying to kludge the controller, I want to spend it finding the line and racing. The problem is in controller implimentation. The. Single. Most. Important. Design. Consideration. In. Any. Real. Time. Simulation.
I'm really enjoying the discussion of how brakes work. It is opening my eyes to my technique in RL and giving me good indication of how to translate those skills to a simulation based on what I can find out about the sim by driving it and reading other peoples interpretions.
In the end, I really don't care how faithful the sim is. It's all about the racing. Do I sweat at the start light? Chicken leg in my right foot and shifting hand? Do I sometimes need a lap or so to get my rhythm? Do I lose focus at certain points and have to reign it in? Am I killing my tires and times by over driving? Am I killing my times by under driving? Did I leave the oven on? Do I respond differently to a car showing up in my mirrors based on the helmet color? Can I keep it together when hounded by a quicker driver behind? Can I keep it together and make the right move at the right time to cleanly make a pass? In all those situations I want control to be second nature. So I can flow. I am having really excellent races in both LFS and iRacing.
Really excellent races.
Oh... and speaking of chicken leg at the start. Does anything feel more real than blasting like a squirrel off the line in an open wheeler in LFS? Sahweeeet!
Whatever, I'm not going to say your right or wrong, but I'm not going to blame "CrammondWare" as you call it because my pedals/brakes work completely fine (and I don't lock up the brakes 95% of the time).
I don't lock up the brakes either. I have a rubber stopper. You'll see me in races, as my license grades get higher.
[edit 04-09-09] I think I choose to blame KaemmerWare based on this little tidbit from the KaemmerWare forum:
"For now, you cannot use DXTweak or DIView calibration software in iRacing because the iRacing software does not look into the registry for calibration values. It takes them directly from the controller output like previously mentioned. I have talked to the iRacing guys about this. It is not that they are against using outside calibration software. It is mainly that this is the way it was done in the beginning and until they get caught up with other more important issues, they just don't have the time to changing it."
...aaaaand this:
"Strangely this only happened here but not in other sims. I assumed it was because the Direct X method prevents this somehow. Still, it seems the method iRacing uses is prone to more issues than the Direct X method. Although there maybe benefits and reasons to the way they do it."
Soooo... apparently, things like controller implementation and online code can wait until they get the Lotus 79 and Road Atlanta going. Oh, and work out the new pricing structure. And crack down on a few more paying users who use the D word in the forums. (Darn!) ...or, just wait until everyone gives in and stops complaining. It is the safest simulation racing environment on the internet, even if 25% of their users can't control their cars or know what ghost it was that just wiped them out.
I rarely lock up the brakes.
When you get into the game (iRacing) you need to full press all controlers, so it makes a self calibration.
If you go right to the track without do this ritual, sure your brakes will lock up, until you make a full travel of the brake pedal.
I use G25, with my pedals mounted inverted on a home-made cockpit.
Well... I'm pretty sure he has Momo pedals (which IIRC are horrible). I have a G25, but if you are comparing pedals then there is still no point in blaming the software.
*Actually, I'll plug in my 1999 Sidewinder wheel/pedals when I get home today and see the difference.
I think I've seen you in races and/or practice sessions before.
)
You're acting like you just arrived at the end of a conversation and missed what was being said. The whole conversation is here, so go read it. If you can't be arsed doing that, then you have no business posting in the thread either.