Yeah, fair do's. It was up to the admins and that was the decision that was made for that particular interesting incident.
srry if i came off wrong, i wouldve probably done the same as 116 and expect you lower. as i had a DNF for the same reason this race lol. but ill learn now not to "expect" others on a specific line.
haha brandon yea sorry again about that...
just to goto the "rule book" on this incident with 116 and 123...
2. Conduct
a. Any Racer who causes an incident as a result of not establishing overlap, or by turning in on a car against whom they had no right, are expected to wait for the other car to pass them even if that action involves losing several positions.
b. Failure to follow this will result in a penalty.
regardless of whether he knew he was there or "expected" him to be lower...he should of waited til he KNEW. He did NOT know, therefor came down and caused the incident instead of taking his time even if it required losing time and positions. Which should result in penalty.
At the risk of sounding patronizing I have to ask everyone to calm down a little. It is rather unfortunate that Jeffy's marvelous words before the race fell on deaf ears as everyone just scrambled as if the race was only 20 laps anyway. Personally I am still very very frustrated and like many here I want justice (my race lasted one straight and half of T1 for godsake!!!!). However, I took a step back decided to hold my tongue about this incident or any of other clockwork's incidents that saw all three of us get into someone else's mess.
So...why am I bring this up? Very simple, this is gradually turning into a witch hunt. Although we're all not yelling "off with their heads" yet, I ask you (and the admins) to be cautious on reviewing these incidents. Many of these are really just racing incidents...sure you can argue that you must be careful. But keep in mind, we're in a 30 car oval race with no spotters. This is the main thing, no spotters. Which means what we have left is just our senses and intuition. That's really quite insane when you think about it. I mean sure, you can diligently look, but unless you are racing in chase view the entire race there is really no way that you can be 100% sure of where everyone is around you. Unless of course we have a competent spotter...which we dont.
So what happens? This is a long race, after a while we start to use our intuition much more than actual looking, then from this we start assuming and it is the assuming that's what gets people wrecked. But tbh, what are we really suppose to do? No competent spotter and our only means of driving safetly is just looking around? This would probably cut it if it's 10-20 competitiors but we're looking at 30 cars and all of which are competently fast...We're all human who've been basically thrown in the dark with the pack scrunched up going 3 and sometimes 4 wide. Mistakes, I'm not excusing stupid mistakes or suicide runs, but honest and reasonable mistakes will be made. We're not psychics, and heck most of us aren't real racecar drivers and even the pros on oval make the same mistakes that some people made during the 500
I've gotten the feeling early on that racing incidents were being viewed as deliberate wrecking or incompetency in the practice sessions, and I've talked to Clockwork guys about this as well, but I'm breaking the silence now because things have gotten so heated recently. Angry that your race was unjustly cut short? Unfortunately, that's just the nature of oval racing. One mistake, nay one unlucky situation and you're out. Look at some of the NASCAR/IndyCar wrecks and you'll see similar if not identical wrecks in the 500 (as well as the finger pointing and frustration that follows).
Of course, some wrecks are inexcusable. I'm not saying that everyone was just involved in unavoidable racing incidents and no one's to blame for anything. But, again, all I'm saying is to just not blur the line between incompetency and hard racing gone wrong however fine that line may be.
Lizard
So...why am I bring this up? Very simple, this is gradually turning into a witch hunt. Although we're all not yelling "off with their heads" yet, I ask you (and the admins) to be cautious on reviewing these incidents. Many of these are really just racing incidents...sure you can argue that you must be careful. But keep in mind, we're in a 30 car oval race with no spotters. This is the main thing, no spotters. Which means what we have left is just our senses and intuition. That's really quite insane when you think about it. I mean sure, you can diligently look, but unless you are racing in chase view the entire race there is really no way that you can be 100% sure of where everyone is around you. Unless of course we have a competent spotter...which we dont.
So what happens? This is a long race, after a while we start to use our intuition much more than actual looking, then from this we start assuming and it is the assuming that's what gets people wrecked. But tbh, what are we really suppose to do? No competent spotter and our only means of driving safetly is just looking around? This would probably cut it if it's 10-20 competitiors but we're looking at 30 cars and all of which are competently fast...We're all human who've been basically thrown in the dark with the pack scrunched up going 3 and sometimes 4 wide. Mistakes, I'm not excusing stupid mistakes or suicide runs, but honest and reasonable mistakes will be made. We're not psychics, and heck most of us aren't real racecar drivers and even the pros on oval make the same mistakes that some people made during the 500
I've gotten the feeling early on that racing incidents were being viewed as deliberate wrecking or incompetency in the practice sessions, and I've talked to Clockwork guys about this as well, but I'm breaking the silence now because things have gotten so heated recently. Angry that your race was unjustly cut short? Unfortunately, that's just the nature of oval racing. One mistake, nay one unlucky situation and you're out. Look at some of the NASCAR/IndyCar wrecks and you'll see similar if not identical wrecks in the 500 (as well as the finger pointing and frustration that follows).
Of course, some wrecks are inexcusable. I'm not saying that everyone was just involved in unavoidable racing incidents and no one's to blame for anything. But, again, all I'm saying is to just not blur the line between incompetency and hard racing gone wrong however fine that line may be.
Lizard
Thank you lizard for this post, a very good one.
Yes, me and two other admins are currently in the process of reviewing everyone's races to look for any and all incidents. Then, after we have done that, we will decide which ones are needing of further look, and then, we'll spend a good chunk of time analyzing those and posting our decision. This process will take time, so bear with it. As such, the results will change probably to an extent. Feel free to continue to post your thoguths on the race and happenings, but please, keep it civil.
Things that we will use to make our decisions are:
Replay viewing
Driver Opinions (which will be requested via Private Message when needed..as in, do not call us, we'll call you. We will very likely request that you send us your FO8.cam view so we can use that to judge.)
Broadcast view and analysis (if available)
Ventrilo audio (I recorded Ventrilo. Anything that was said in the clear can be used as evidence, as it can be done in real life. There will be a rule introduced for next year requiring all chat to be in the clear, but more on that later)
We thank you in advance for your patience in this matter. It's not something we'd like to do, but we have decided that it is a must. I will post our incident logs after we have completed them for public viewing. I will indicate which ones are under review, and other status messages as appropriate.
dekojester
*Unoffical posting*
There is one thing I still am not hearing from anyone. Why did he stay higher than normal?
This all feels very desperate and petty now. If anyone should get a post race penalty it should be car 302 for what happened with the two CoRe cars. All FM car's look eh? Really?
It's pretty hypocritical for someone who has posted in this topic talking about bad driving, when one of the more dangerous incidents that happened during this race was he drafting people when he had a bloody puncture!
As Deko has said NO car was entirely clean all day, not one of you at all. You were all pathetically agressive. I am not looking forward to going through all this, it will be an interesting challenge, and I guarntee you that there will be some unhappy people after.
Roll on 12 months so we can do it all again.
There is one thing I still am not hearing from anyone. Why did he stay higher than normal?
This all feels very desperate and petty now. If anyone should get a post race penalty it should be car 302 for what happened with the two CoRe cars. All FM car's look eh? Really?
It's pretty hypocritical for someone who has posted in this topic talking about bad driving, when one of the more dangerous incidents that happened during this race was he drafting people when he had a bloody puncture!
As Deko has said NO car was entirely clean all day, not one of you at all. You were all pathetically agressive. I am not looking forward to going through all this, it will be an interesting challenge, and I guarntee you that there will be some unhappy people after.
Roll on 12 months so we can do it all again.
You are trying to be facetious, but you're right. If a car is coming down your left hand side and you come down too early and there is contact, it is the outside cars' fault.
So if you did that next year it would be the other person's fault, just like this year it was 116's.
A few more general comments regarding this business about "FM way" ( whatever that means, but I'll guess) and the way which, at a minimum, was expected during the race...
I feel as though some people want certain things both ways. If the 'FM way', by which I assume means taking the tightest possible lines in order to achieve the fastest possible laps as normally seen on Oval Junkies, was not required in any way during the race then there can be no inquisition into why any FM driver didn't drive that way.
That may be quite a convoluted sentence, I will attempt to make it more simple.
On Overall Junkies Servers = Everybody does things by our rules, you can almost guarantee where an FM driver will be at any given time.
Kyoto 500 Race = FM rules do not apply, it is not our event. As long as everybody pays attention and leaves space and continues to be aware of cars around them (especially inside when drafting/close proximity racing) you can be anywhere at any time within the rules as laid out by NDR.
Therefore during the Kyoto 500 race, there can be no complaints if FM drivers are not always where you would expect them to be if it was a race being conducted on Oval Junkies.
Every single day during day-to-day racing that we conduct, if there is ever any incidents between 2 of our drivers the first thing you normally hear on Ventrillo is "Sorry, I expected you to be a little bit earlier/later/slower/faster/higher/lower/etc there". The Kyoto 500 is not like that, so to say that anybody expected anybody else to be in a certain place at a certain time is contradictory.
I feel as though some people want certain things both ways. If the 'FM way', by which I assume means taking the tightest possible lines in order to achieve the fastest possible laps as normally seen on Oval Junkies, was not required in any way during the race then there can be no inquisition into why any FM driver didn't drive that way.
That may be quite a convoluted sentence, I will attempt to make it more simple.
On Overall Junkies Servers = Everybody does things by our rules, you can almost guarantee where an FM driver will be at any given time.
Kyoto 500 Race = FM rules do not apply, it is not our event. As long as everybody pays attention and leaves space and continues to be aware of cars around them (especially inside when drafting/close proximity racing) you can be anywhere at any time within the rules as laid out by NDR.
Therefore during the Kyoto 500 race, there can be no complaints if FM drivers are not always where you would expect them to be if it was a race being conducted on Oval Junkies.
Every single day during day-to-day racing that we conduct, if there is ever any incidents between 2 of our drivers the first thing you normally hear on Ventrillo is "Sorry, I expected you to be a little bit earlier/later/slower/faster/higher/lower/etc there". The Kyoto 500 is not like that, so to say that anybody expected anybody else to be in a certain place at a certain time is contradictory.
I normally wouldn't drag myself into an argument here but if car 116 doesn't get a penalty for the insident mentioned above I'm greatly disappointed. Note that I don't advocate FM ways, or any other 'ways' for that matter, but am merely trying to observe the situation in the light of the rules. No where is said anything about whether outside/inside car is responsible. The way it should be looked at is simply looking this as an overtaking manouvre where 123 has more than sufficient overlap. Therefore as long as he leaves sufficiently room for a car outside he may choose whatever line he desires, provided that he doesn't swerve exessively.
But that's just my opinion. Feel free to correct me if some point I made is clearly wrong.
But that's just my opinion. Feel free to correct me if some point I made is clearly wrong.
This all feels very desperate and petty now. If anyone should get a post race penalty it should be car 302 for what happened with the two CoRe cars. All FM car's look eh? Really?
i really can't tell u how agressive i get if i read such statements.
there is 1 thing.
WE ARE NOT ALL EQUAL!!!!!!!!
yes, we are in a team, but that does not mean that 302 could drive as good as 123 od that i could drive as good as 808.
in a such a race everybody is responsible for himself.
we are all free thinking people, and i get absolutly mad if i always hear.
the fm way the fm way........
who the hell cares???
nobody. cause as smeg said it is not our event so we have to stick to the rules like everybody else.
@ deko
about car 116 crossing several pitstalls.
i remember the statement u gave on vent to that after the race:
"listen guys, it is MY event and that are MY rules."
i agree totaly.
but if u wanna be taken any serious as a race director u have to stick to the rules u made and put out penalties if someone does not stick to them.
and in the rulebook there is nothing that says, it would be allowed to cross pitstalls during sc periods and u did not say it in the driver briefing b4 the race either.
so if u do not penalize that, u know how my point of view from u as a race director is.
karkar
i really can't tell u how agressive i get if i read such statements.
there is 1 thing.
WE ARE NOT ALL EQUAL!!!!!!!!
yes, we are in a team, but that does not mean that 302 could drive as good as 123 od that i could drive as good as 808.
in a such a race everybody is responsible for himself.
we are all free thinking people, and i get absolutly mad if i always hear.
the fm way the fm way........
who the hell cares???
nobody. cause as smeg said it is not our event so we have to stick to the rules like everybody else.
@ deko
about car 116 crossing several pitstalls.
i remember the statement u gave on vent to that after the race:
"listen guys, it is MY event and that are MY rules."
i agree totaly.
but if u wanna be taken any serious as a race director u have to stick to the rules u made and put out penalties if someone does not stick to them.
and in the rulebook there is nothing that says, it would be allowed to cross pitstalls during sc periods and u did not say it in the driver briefing b4 the race either.
so if u do not penalize that, u know how my point of view from u as a race director is.
karkar
Ah yes, let me just point out that what I said here is a DIRECT responce to this. I am fully aware you are all different, I just did not like the way that this was put:
And I didn't mention the "FM way", or at least I didn't mean to indirectly ...
That post was not meant as a "FM way" post in the slightest. :/I find it quite disapointing how all the FM and friends are protesting for every small mistake the CoRe guys made, to try and revoke them from the win. It really is rediculous.
Incorrect.
I haven't looked in the official protest thread since making my own however up to that time everybody had done what the race director asked of them.
2March posted about an incident he had with car 116
Ronald posted about an incident he had with car 116
I posted about an incident I had with car 116
All of these incidents were at separate times spread out over the course of the race. The three of us could have been racing as individuals or racing for three different teams, we would still have made the same protests. You seem to be trying to pick a fight or create an argument with FM as a whole where none exists.
Everybody is legitimately entitled to make a protest about anything which occurred with them during the race. If you had made the qualifying 30 you would also be entitled to make protests about racing incidents involved with you.
Those are fine, what I don't like is all the other people coming in and trying to back up your protest. It should be 116 and whoever protested discussing the protest that THEY made. No one else should discuss the protests which they did not make.
so why are u talking here then?
He isn't discussing the protests, he is discussing the discussion of the protests.
And we are discussing the discussion about the discussion of the protests!
Just to go ahead and respond to the 123 incident...
The 123 wasn't at fault, but I never expected him to run the 3 and 1/4 line while we were 3 wide. I seldom run as high as he did when I'm 3 wide on the outside... Also note that Peterman and myself turn into the corner the same time, Peterman actually a little earlier. Kasemeir actually comes up the track as me and Peterman go down... Essentially, we can all use that tactic. It's the same thing drifters try to do when they mess up their line, they push you so wide it's ether loose the car in front, or make contact. Kinda the same thing here, but if I would have noticed he was that far off my normal line I would have lost the draft and hung back. After pit stops we ended up behind Kasemeir anyways...
The 123 wasn't at fault, but I never expected him to run the 3 and 1/4 line while we were 3 wide. I seldom run as high as he did when I'm 3 wide on the outside... Also note that Peterman and myself turn into the corner the same time, Peterman actually a little earlier. Kasemeir actually comes up the track as me and Peterman go down... Essentially, we can all use that tactic. It's the same thing drifters try to do when they mess up their line, they push you so wide it's ether loose the car in front, or make contact. Kinda the same thing here, but if I would have noticed he was that far off my normal line I would have lost the draft and hung back. After pit stops we ended up behind Kasemeir anyways...
No, in a way he is right. Most likely after the race you guys sat in vent and investigated every single lap we ran.
The sad part about having a race so long, is that you can probably protest every single person at some point during the race, and it will probably all equal out in the end. I myself am not going to search through 500 miles of cars going in circles to find 1 or 2 small incidents that both cars involved could have easily avoided. No one is gaining anything from it, but what I do know is, I had to pit 5 times (fixing damage) due to others people's crap and I still managed to make up a lap to finish 2nd. So please, what is everyone else's excuse?
And the "FM way" does effect part of the race, as people have ran so much in your server that they get brainwashed (ie: last lap).
all im doing as of now
was a great experience for me and i have been thinking about it and taking it as just that.where i come from we just go punch the offender in the face........
but then i guess we'd all have a black eye or two.......
but then i guess we'd all have a black eye or two.......
Kenneth and I have dealt with his post and he has already accepted my response... why bring it back up?
Please, don't flatter yourself. I can assure you the only things which have been reported in the protests thread our what was recalled from memory. Also, what is this "us" business. This has nothing to do with FM & CoRe. It is about individual drivers making complaints against other drivers. To my knowledge nobody has put in a complaint about you, so I wouldn't worry about it.
Everything happening post race is in accordance with the rules and making protests is actively encouraged by the event organisers. You will have to take that up with them, although I do think "cars going in circles" does a disservice to the intricacies of oval racing.
They were less fortunate. As you have already pointed out it is such a long race and you need a fair bit of luck as well as skill to get to the finish line in one piece. I don't mean that specifically towards you, I mean everybody. Any collision that anybody had which resulted in them spinning out, they could do it exactly the same next week and the car would have kept going. Vice versa is also true, people that had contact and managed to keep going to do the race next week and get wrecked.
The administrators have said it does not affect the race, so again that is a point for them to address. As for our server, we actively teach and encourage techniques which will result in the best racing line for drafting and subsequently the best lap times you can possibly achieve. The administrators have clearly said such techniques do not need to be observed in their race, which is absolutely fine.
As for your choice of words "brainwashed" I will leave everybody else to be the judge of what you mean and whether it is appropriate.
Yeah, this is what I'm wondering as well.
In a long oval race, you expect certain things from drivers who have taken the same corner 200 times in a row, i.e., not staying 1-2 lanes higher than normal at corner entry. Nolan certainly did turn down toward the FM car, but it could just as easily be viewed as the FM car NOT turning down to follow the natural line of the corner. The car on the outside is at fault IMO, but it's understandable that he made the move he did (because it's the natural move in that circumstance, and one you're making every 40 seconds for a few hours).
Like I know you had that talk with Kenneth...
Well, it seems you guys are just attacking Nolan. Since there was 10 of you at the start of the race, and only 3 finished (all having problems) but only 3 protests against one driver, who didn't cause all of those incidents. Then you have (on the stream) Buck getting into you guys quite a bit, but yet you don't protest him for any of it.
You are attacking one person, and aiming at that one person only, it's quite obvious and pretty ignorant. If you are going to spend the time to protest, then protest everyone equally, don't just take everything out on one person.
And with the FM guy running high, he was doing it random times lap after lap to try and get away from Nolan. Nolan said about it multiple times on vent, which Deko will hear in his recording.
The precedent was set out LAST YEAR that the penalty for crossing too many pitstalls in-race under caution is to be sent to the back fo the line for the restasrt. If we do not catch them during race, we do not do a conversion of those post race. Since this one is under caution, there will be no post-race penalty for it.
Please see last year's penalties regarding pitlane stall crossings here: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=846701#post846701
And, because the language of the rule states that you "may be penalized with a drive through for violation of this rule" is also applied here. This is worded as such intentionally, for accidents happen, and someone could be forced to cross more than one in an avoiding action in the pitlane.
But, as was stated above, this one occured under caution, and it is impossible to convert a "Back of the line" penalty to time after the race has completed.
I also never penalized pitstall shortcutting under caution in the practice races, so where were the complaints then ? The precedent was set out long ago, and as such, this sort of complait seems to be nothing more than a petty shot at the Race Administration.
d
2009 Kyoto 500 : Race Discussion
(155 posts, started )
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