This would be easy to implement and might tickle (in a good way) the clutch users.
Servers should have a "No Auto-Clutch Allowed" option. I saw servers that didn't allow Chase-Cam and I thought that the same thing would be nice for auto-clutch, because there are users that love to use the clutch though it makes driving a bit harder.

I would really like to see the great auto-clutch users shaking off thoes secconds with Heel&Toe. :P

How does auto-clutch make driving harder?

Bad idea for plenty of reasons.

But the best reason is

What about the 95% of the players that dont have a clutch pedal?

Don't count on anything like this ever happening.

Quote from XCNuse :

What about the 95% of the players that dont have a clutch pedal?

They can find themselves a game, this is a sim :evil:
I realize not everyone is in pursuit of simulating a real car in their homes, it's just a game for some. But it should be an option for those who treat LFS as what it is, a simulation, even if it still is a relatively simple one.

It's possible via InSim, but I think it should be part of the server, so +1.

Hold on though..

When that no chase or other view thing came in via insim, do you know how many times I got specced for changing my view after the race or before or in the middle or whatever the case? I mean when that stupid thing was brand new it was all the rave and I had to deal with it 4 out of 5 servers, it was totally unnecessary, fortunately people stopped using that stupid thing because people just started getting mad at the server owners because they couldn't play for whatever reason.

Even to this day I don't use in car view just because all I have is a laptop, albeit a 17" laptop but it is still way to small, if I'm going to ever be stuck in that in car view I must have a 24" screen with a graphics card that can handle it with ease.

Forcing a clutch is serious the worst idea ever.

If you are going to force clutch then you're going to have to force H Gate shifter too then right?

I mean for real, if you ever turned that option on you'd get like 5 people racing when you'd be running normally with over 30 just because that many people don't have an extra clutch pedal.

Sure, on a team server where everyone on that team agrees on it and they all have clutches or some dont, but they all agree.. fine, that's okay.

But putting a system like that limiting the general public? Terrible terrible idea.

Quote from XCNuse :

If you are going to force clutch then you're going to have to force H Gate shifter too then right?

Not necessarily. There are plenty of cars with sequential gearboxes that require the driver to use the clutch (at the very least when pulling away from a standstill and when coming to a stop), like WRC, V8 Supercars, F1 etc.

I've already seen servers that have this system implimented, to the extreme too. I joined a server with my clutch pedal dissabled, because it was malfunctioning.

I was presented with a kick to spec and the following message:

"This is a real sim server, a clutch and H-gate shifter are mandatory here."

Hmmmm, so just because my clutch pedal needed a pot job, I had to sit out of a race?

Note that my setup is partly custom made parts, and I didn't have brand new pots to use, so I was changing them out freqently for a while. Now I have a good pot in my clutch because I've adopted a gutted MS sidewinder wheel for my clutch and shifter.

Quote from XCNuse :

When that no chase or other view thing came in via insim

There is a server-side option called force cockpit view, which also disables the racing line. If you're on the track in a car, you're forced to use cockpit view, the client won't allow you to change view. No InSim, actual LFS.

Quote from XCNuse :

Even to this day I don't use in car view just because all I have is a laptop, albeit a 17" laptop but it is still way to small, if I'm going to ever be stuck in that in car view I must have a 24" screen with a graphics card that can handle it with ease.

So you're a casual gamer, some people are not. Some people take LFS and other sims serious enough to spend a lot of money on their equipment, on wheels, racing frames, shifters and pedals, motion simulators even. Those people are dedicated to sim-racing and expect the same dedication from everyone they race.

Quote from XCNuse :

Forcing a clutch is serious the worst idea ever.

In my opinion, adding auto-clutch was the worst idea ever.

Quote from XCNuse :

If you are going to force clutch then you're going to have to force H Gate shifter too then right?

For manual cars, absolutely!

Quote from XCNuse :

I mean for real, if you ever turned that option on you'd get like 5 people racing when you'd be running normally with over 30 just because that many people don't have an extra clutch pedal.

Well let's hope they go buy the necessary equipment then. There are only two valid reasons for a serious sim racer not to own a clutch pedal. A physical disability or driving vehicles with semi- or automatic transmission exclusively (with the exception amp88 named).

Quote from XCNuse :

But putting a system like that limiting the general public? Terrible terrible idea.

It's an option for server owners, the general public can keep cruising or do whatever they do. Racers meanwhile can race fair and square under similar "cockpit conditions".

Quote from DragonCommando :

Hmmmm, so just because my clutch pedal needed a pot job, I had to sit out of a race?

Yes it does, you'd be out of a real race too with a broken car
€: Well no, in this situation I'd say a button clutch would be fine, just not auto-clutch.

If you say adding auto clutch was a bad idea you haven't been here long enough.. back just before I was here there was no clutch period!
Also.. force cockpit view was insim in the beginning..

It hasn't been until recently that getting a wheel with a clutch pedal already is standard, it's still actually pretty rare.

As for by H gate shifters, yes I know not all cars use them, I was making a reference to the cars that do have them, that you'd be required to use one of those too... which, when I got mine, cost as much as my Momo racing wheel...


Plus, I've still got the number one rule of LFS.. keep it system wide.. LFS is best at one thing, allowing people of all ages etc. enjoy the physics of driving a car no matter how rich or poor you are, this is probably the biggest thing, and you can't say anything about this just because LFS has always been based on this.. keep people that have 10 year old computers still able to play LFS.

Sure you can say well go out and buy a clutch pedal.. but.. what if someone's computer is so old it doesn't even have USB? Think about that?
Or.. how about money issues?
My Momo racing wheel was $100 when I got it, and still pretty much stands there at $90, My Logitech Formula GP wheel was my first wheel I got as a gift, it cost $45 when it was bought, I now use it as .. well nothing currently, but it was for my clutch. My ACT Labs H shifter was another $90 for me to buy

that is $235..

It costs that much to get a G25, but did I get a G25? No. Clutch pedals in my day were.. you make one work, not buy one. I could've spent another $100 for the ACT Labs pedal set, but I didn't have that kind of money.

So are you telling me you would rather force people to not be able to buy any food for two weeks just so they can have a race online after work? That's wrong.


The rate you guys are trying to defend this idea, it's like the FIA, you're ruining the entire purpose of .. everything.
Restrictions like this is what is ruining motorsports, game or not.



If you want to have a race that's 100% fair, then make sure everyone you're racing against has a clutch, don't cut those from the line just because they can't afford it, that is wrong on so many personal levels it's emberassing.

It's a proposed server side option. If people don't want to drive there they don't have to. Saying server owners shouldn't have more control over who drives on their server is a bit silly, is it not?

Having an option there is a toy, it's something to play with, like I was saying early on, when that force cockpit view went fullscale, there wasn't a single server I got on that would allow me to use my normal view so I stopped playing because it was miserable, and then when I did find a server.. no one was playing.

That is what I am getting at.

Quote from XCNuse :

Having an option there is a toy, it's something to play with, like I was saying early on, when that force cockpit view went fullscale, there wasn't a single server I got on that would allow me to use my normal view so I stopped playing because it was miserable, and then when I did find a server.. no one was playing.

That is what I am getting at.

Yes, and what I'm saying is that those people have obviously chosen to race there so they accept the forced cockpit view (and possibly think it's a good idea). If you've just gone out and bought a shiny new wheel with a clutch pedal and an h gate shifter, it's pretty reasonable to want to race against people who are using the clutch and shifter too. If you have some people using the clutch and shifter and some people using auto clutch and sequential shift the people using clutch and shifter are at an automatic disadvantage. Being able to level out the playing field (by forcing everyone to use manual clutch and possibly manual transmission) is a reasonable idea.

You seem to be against the forced cockpit view because you don't use it. You're saying "I don't want things added to LFS that I'm not going to use". I think that's a more embarassing standpoint to take, personally.

cant we all just get along! it is an improvement thread, so instead of argueing, think up a way TOGETHER to make this idea work! maybe a limit on the number of servers that can be open at one time with this option, if the limit is met, you are told to go to another server. that would work in my thoughts.

Quote from logitekg25 :

maybe a limit on the number of servers that can be open at one time with this option, if the limit is met, you are told to go to another server. that would work in my thoughts.

There are a few reasons this isn't a good idea (excluding the matter of keeping track of the number of servers who have this enabled in real time). You're saying to server owners "We've created this new idea, but only x of you can run it at the same time". Why would you even do that? How would you deal with people who 'hog' the feature (keep it enabled on 20 empty servers they spawn?)?

Thanks amp88 for understanding and explaining the point of this

Quote from XCNuse :

(...) just because they can't afford it, that is wrong on so many personal levels it's emberassing.

So you're seriously saying there are people who can afford a computer, a LFS license and an internet connection, who'd have to do without food for 2 weeks to be able to afford a G25 which amounts to about 10 full price DVDs or 54 packs of cigarettes? I'd say that's embarrassing. Mind you, "cannot afford it" is a very different thing from "do not really want to waste my money on a wheel", that seems to be the real meaning of "can't afford it" in most cases.

Quote from logitekg25 :

cant we all just get along! it is an improvement thread, so instead of argueing, think up a way TOGETHER to make this idea work! maybe a limit on the number of servers that can be open at one time with this option, if the limit is met, you are told to go to another server. that would work in my thoughts.

We are getting along fine, we're having a topical argument.
Mind elaborating what the point of a global limit would be?

I'm not the only one, I'm defending everyone that doesn't use the cockpit view 24/7 because some of us don't have the graphical power to want to deal with cockpits seeing it kills FPS by almost 25%.

As for costing money.. no I'm not kidding, do you really want to start a thread to see how many people can afford $200+ worth of equipment? Because I'm telling you a vast majority can't.. and another percentage can.. but would prefer not to spend that much money.

Do you realize what anyone can do with $200?

As for being unfair.. I fail to see how this is legit in so many places, there are so many leagues.. for example the biggest, SCCA, not all cars have H gate shifters.. some have padels, do you see the guys having to do the real shifting complain? Maybe.. but do they care? Not really, no. Why? Because it costs a lot to have padel shifters in a car, not to mention it's heavy.

So.. instead of forcing something.. why not limit the other?
Like.. I dunno, a 50kilo weight penalty or so?

Quote from XCNuse :

I'm not the only one, I'm defending everyone that doesn't use the cockpit view 24/7 because some of us don't have the graphical power to want to deal with cockpits seeing it kills FPS by almost 25%.

As for being unfair.. I fail to see how this is legit in so many places, there are so many leagues.. for example the biggest, SCCA, not all cars have H gate shifters.. some have padels, do you see the guys having to do the real shifting complain? Maybe.. but do they care? Not really, no. Why? Because it costs a lot to have padel shifters in a car, not to mention it's heavy.

So.. instead of forcing something.. why not limit the other?
Like.. I dunno, a 50kilo weight penalty or so?

You are not forcing them, you're giving the server owners the option to force them. It's a massive distinction.

Yes, until that option is abused just like the force cockpit view was and no one can play LFS unless they have a clutch pedal until that 'fad' goes away after half a year.

Quote from morpha :

Thanks amp88 for understanding and explaining the point of this

So you're seriously saying there are people who can afford a computer, a LFS license and an internet connection, who'd have to do without food for 2 weeks to be able to afford a G25 which amounts to about 10 full price DVDs or 54 packs of cigarettes? I'd say that's embarrassing. Mind you, "cannot afford it" is a very different thing from "do not really want to waste my money on a wheel", that seems to be the real meaning of "can't afford it" in most cases.



We are getting along fine, we're having a topical argument.
Mind elaborating what the point of a global limit would be?

idk what servers are actually like (never raced online or even been online with lfs ) so im just imagining, but maybe there is another option (bear with me lol) that asks if its private, and then have a list of drivers allowed, and they will get an invite or something asking if they want to join, and if on the servers screen there is a search servers thing, and you type the name of the hidden server, a request will be sent to the administrator of the server...if that makes sense, i am using my imagination for this.

Quote from XCNuse :

Yes, until that option is abused just like the force cockpit view was and no one can play LFS unless they have a clutch pedal until that 'fad' goes away after half a year.

So letting people decide how they want to race is a bad idea? If people don't like it they'll choose a server without it.

Quote from logitekg25 :

idk what servers are actually like (never raced online or even been online with lfs ) so im just imagining, but maybe there is another option (bear with me lol) that asks if its private, and then have a list of drivers allowed, and they will get an invite or something asking if they want to join, and if on the servers screen there is a search servers thing, and you type the name of the hidden server, a request will be sent to the administrator of the server...if that makes sense, i am using my imagination for this.

Private, password protected servers can be created easily. You can even switch from a public server (anyone can join) to a private server (only admins or people with the correct password can join) when it's running.

Quote from amp88 :

So letting people decide how they want to race is a bad idea? If people don't like it they'll choose a server without it.
HE IS SAYING THERE WILL BE NO SERVERS LIKE THAT BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL ABUSE THAT OPTION.



Private, password protected servers can be created easily. You can even switch from a public server (anyone can join) to a private server (only admins or people with the correct password can join) when it's running.

no idea what you are talking about, because havent seen it. *begins to wonder why he puts up with that*

That isn't deciding, that is forcing something on them that they may not necesarily want.

Sure you could choose a server that doesn't have it turned on.. but do we even have that option for force cockpit?
No!

That's why I was so mad about forced cockpit just because every server I went to I didn't have a choice, it was deal with bad FPS, or get booted to spectator, that's what annoyed me is I wasn't even using chase cam intentionally, I was going through the views and I got specced.. without even knowing I would be if I hadn't of done that.

My limit idea is where this thread should head, forcing something on the gamers is a poor decision in the end.

I mean if you want to take it to extremes to see how this really sounds, that's like starting a US server and saying only US people can race it.. well.. what if there are no other servers running the F1 on KY Long, and you want to play but you're in Canada.. No.. you can't.. you're not in the US so go find somewhere else to play.

Quote from XCNuse :

That isn't deciding, that is forcing something on them that they may not necesarily want.

Sure you could choose a server that doesn't have it turned on.. but do we even have that option for force cockpit?
No!

edit: Just realised you were talking about it from the user's point of view rather than server admin. AFAIK there is no way to directly filter the host display by FCV yes/no, but you can tell which have it on by looking at the host flags (in the Info column from within LFS server list).

Quote from XCNuse :

I mean if you want to take it to extremes to see how this really sounds, that's like starting a US server and saying only US people can race it.. well.. what if there are no other servers running the F1 on KY Long, and you want to play but you're in Canada.. No.. you can't.. you're not in the US so go find somewhere else to play.

Seems like a pretty reasonable idea, IMHO. Australian people usually have very high ping to European servers, so if the server owner wanted to keep out Australians he should be able to. A lot of other multiplayer games have autokick features for high ping. The point I'm trying to make (and you seem to be failing to take on board) is that it's all about choice. A server owner should be able to do whatever they want with their server so long as it's not illegal and doesn't break the license agreement. If that means keeping people who use keyboard or mouse or are from Australia then fair enough.

Quote from XCNuse :

Do you realize what anyone can do with $200?

Educate me, I have no idea what 200 USD are actually worth in the US. Judging from what you say, it must be more than I thought. At current exchange rates, 200$ are about 140€, which is not a lot of money, enough for a month of food supplies for the average family perhaps, cheap food though.

Doesn't really matter to me, honestly. I've had me G25 for well over a month now and if anything, there's an extra satisfaction when you're leading the field using heel/toe technique and the h shifter.