Quote from Falcon140 :

+1 to the weight penalty for auto-clutch users.

I've never noticed any advantage in a race that could be attributed to auto clutching. If I'm better than people I beat them, if they're better than me they beat me. Why should I carry extra weight? This is an even worse solution.

amp88, look through all of the pages for the hotlap charts. It's pretty solidly 90% auto-clutchers on every page. Besides, after the first half second-second it's all down to skill anyway. You can't blame it on the clutch when people are 10 seconds down. If you really want to prove that auto-clutching is faster do some testing yourself, or get others to do it. Put some effort into it too, an hour with clutch and an hour without, see how much difference it actually makes. You won the R2F1 with a clutch, though it's not really as big a deal since most (all?) of the cars can be shifted without a clutch. I'm not too sure about the FBM or MRT5.

morpha, yeah, there's only a few FCV servers now but XCNuse was describing that when the option came out it was used by a lot of servers. I'd really hate to go through that transistion period. So driving to you is different from driving to me. Why does that mean you don't want to race me?

Quote from Not Sure :

Did not read the thread, too much negativity.

+1 for a server side option to force manual clutch

Do not want to race with cheaters

Good lord. Maybe there should be one or two servers to keep these kind of elitist bigots away from the rest of the LFS community.

Quote from pik_d :

So driving to you is different from driving to me. Why does that mean you don't want to race me?

I don't know if I want to race you or not because I probably never did, or if I did, I can't remember. Should I ever want to race within a group of clutch users, I don't want to have to ask everyone if they are using auto clutch or have an InSim take care of it, I'll just go to a server with no auto clutch or flick on the option on my server and enjoy a session with like-minded (i.e. in pursuit of most realistic simulation) people. What's elitist about that?

As for the transition period, I can't imagine that to take long. As I said, admins generally don't want their servers empty, which most of them will be since there are indeed a lot of people using auto clutch. I don't think many admins will turn the option on in the first place, there's no peer pressure or anything that could cause a chain reaction.

Quote from Not Sure :

Did not read the thread, too much negativity.

+1 for a server side option to force manual clutch

Do not want to race with cheaters

You wouldn't do very well in the real world of racing with an attitude like that.. no one ever said racing was perfectly fair.
Which is another reason why I am against this completely.. Racing has never been fair.

Quote from morpha :

I don't know if I want to race you or not because I probably never did, or if I did, I can't remember. Should I ever want to race within a group of clutch users, I don't want to have to ask everyone if they are using auto clutch or have an InSim take care of it, I'll just go to a server with no auto clutch or flick on the option on my server and enjoy a session with like-minded people. What's elitist about that?

Pretty much all of it. Think about what you're saying from the point of view of someone who has say a DFP and takes LFS seriously enough to be in plenty of leagues and be plenty quick. I'm sure there's plenty of people who fall into this catagory. Think about how it sounds to say "well I don't want to race with you because you're not (really driving/as hard core/as serious/as dedicated/however you choose to word it so it doesn't sound elitist) enough for me" to that person. That doesn't seem elitist to basically say "you're not good enough to race me/on my server" to someone who takes this game serious?

Quote from morpha :

As for the transition period, I can't imagine that to take long. As I said, admins generally don't want their servers empty, which most of them will be since there are indeed a lot of people using auto clutch. I don't think many admins will turn the option on in the first place, there's no peer pressure or anything that could cause a chain reaction.

There was probably no peer pressure to turn on FCV but XCNuse still had issues.

I think someone who sits in a motion simulator might feel a little more comfortable being surrounded by people who know what it's like, there's probably a reason why all motion sim videos I've seen so far are single player...

Anyway, I didn't say I wouldn't race you, I said if I wanted to race people with at least a clutch (due to the context of this arguement), I'd like to have an option to ensure only clutch users can take part in the race. There are many restrictions in racing, why is it elitist to demand a clutch pedal that exists in the simulated car? If I decide to race against people with the same configuration, I'm suddenly an "elitist bigot"? Why do you even care whom I race? Where do you go for your oval racing? Probably to a server with some oval combo (and possibly "oval" in the name), pretty sure they won't allow you to change the track and put on another combo. If you see a server with no auto clutch, it's a no auto clutch server, just as an oval server is an oval server, a drift server is a drift server and so on.
What's your problem with having an option for no auto clutch? Besides the fear of it disrupting LFS online experience based on FCV, for which so far we only have XCNuse as witness (no offence).

LFS is a driving simulator which strives to be as realistic as possible, though some consessions are going to have to be made. Some of those consessions are due to the fact that you can't feel every little thing about the car like you could in real life. This results in the F9 and F10 menus. Some conessions have to be made because you are only one person and you have no real team. This results in the F11 and F12 menues. Other such stuff has to be given that the driver wouldn't normally see or have control of.

Other consessions have to be made for those people who can't afford the best equipment, or choose to not buy it for whatever reason. This is why we have the ability to use gamepads and mice and keyboards. Calling us cheaters as Not Sure did really irks me because we're just using something made avaliable to us directly from the developers. Looking down at people who don't use a clutch (you view us as not even driving) is certainly a form of elitism. If you need me to spell it out any further, let me know.

So far as the bigotry, you seem like you would be against it if I told you that I was driving in LFS, or that a mouser is driving in LFS. I do believe that I am driving in LFS, not quite as realistically as you, but I'm still controling the direction of the car by steering and the speed of the car with the throttle, brakes and gears. You may not be a bigot in the strictest sense of the word but you seem pretty against those of us who drive differently.

I would never ever use auto gears or brake help, but I wouldn't refuse to race against anyone who did. Though, if they needed those aides, I would almost certainly be much faster than them anyway. On the other end of the scale, I would never dream of taking away your clutch pedal, and demanding that a clutch pedal is in your simulated car is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

Maybe my wording was unnecessary provocative. I just want to race with people that control the car with the same method I do. But feel free to call me elitist if that makes you feel better..

I would not dare to demand that I should be allowed to race with a wheel in a mouse only server. If some server was for force dynamics users only, I would not complain at all.

Auto clutch users have and will have plenty of servers to race on, so what's the harm in an option to ban auto clutch form certain servers?

Quote from pik_d :

I would never ever use auto gears or brake help, but I wouldn't refuse to race against anyone who did.

Neither would or do I. Once again, this is about an option, not global enforcement. If I feel like it, I'll enable it or join a server where it is enabled, just like I join a drift server when I feel like drifting or an oval server when I feel like going round the oval.

iRacing does not support keyboard and mouse to control the vehicle, not at all. It works there, iRacing is fairly popular, does that make them all (drivers and developers) elitist bigots? What's so terrible about us having the same server side option?

iRacing allows auto-clutch though, if it's your argument.

edit: and btw what happened to this server thread? Seems dead for nearly two months.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=56395

Quote from psychometalist :

iRacing allows auto-clutch though, if it's your argument.

Ha, touché
Only tried it for half an hour, didn't even know that.

+1 for server side option to do forced manual clutch, h-gate and 900 degrees.

+1 for server side option to do forced auto-clutch, auto gears, and keyboard only.

People don't use clutch and they keep talking about my ideea as beeing a **BAD** one. Do you have any ideea what I have to do to get from the first to the last gear ? No. YOU JUST PUSH A BUTTON! Whenever you want to accelerate, you just push a pedal or a button! You ALWAYS have engine break. Yeah, peace of cake, ain't it ? Well, for me, it's not.
Do you have any ideea what "matching revs" is ? Well, let me give you a picture. Let's say I am playing on FZT (over 400 HP and RWD) and I need to take a sharp turn in seccond gear. If I don't match the revolutions and I mistake by only 2000 RPM, I TURN AROUND! And a very happy player with auto-clutch just takes my position and sais "", probably thinking I am such a big idiot ... OK, let's say I take the turn perfectly (which is pretty hard when using Heel&Toe ... and that is the only way someone can match a auto-clutch player), but I can still mistake a gear when I am on the straight line, and still the auto-clutch player gets me ...
Sometimes you just want to be able to kick them out! Sometimes you want to play with guys who drive it realistic too! I don't say all the servers MUST have this option, I say that some servers SHOULD!

Quote from XCNuse :

Now, looking back at the video of Senna in the NSX note how much closer the brake and gas pedal is.. why is this? Because it is made to do this.. and why was it made to do that? Because it's a sports car, that's why, and even its pedals aren't even that close, go sit in a Ferrari and see how close those suckers are!

I have a Renault Megane 1.6 16V from 2007 and the pedals are possitioned for Heel&Toe. Every gasoline/manual transmission care has the pedals placed like this (VW Jetta is great for H&T, tested! ), because you need the technique when you start driving up a ramp.
The diesel engines have high torque at low revolutions and you can simply lift the clutch a little before releasing the break and H&T isn't needed, but on a gasoline car which has the highest torque at 4250RPM, you really need the give it some gas while holding the breaks in order to start your movement up a ramp.

L.E.: Using the hand-break is booring so don't bring that into dicussion.

Quote from gxgung :

People don't use clutch and they keep talking about my ideea as beeing a **BAD** one.

I use a clutch and I know it's a disadvantage, but I still think this is a bad idea.

@gxgung, I have a complete setup I made and I PREFER it to autoclutch because of how much more fun it is... but me going down to school this time with my wheel, you can't pay me to take my entire setup, it takes up way to much space.

So for me, and those that can't afford it, it is unfair.
Again.. if you want 100% fairness which is.. I mean while we talk about realistic.. there is no such thing as a 100% fair race ever.

Also, your comment about heel toe going up a ramp doesn't make sense, why would you be downshifting going up a ramp and have to blip your throttle to keep the car steady?
If you're going up a ramp you put it in first gear and don't shift. Maybe I'm not reading what you said correctly but it doesn't make sense to me as why you would be downshifting going up a ramp. Or do you mean keeping it in first gear, and just braking and gas at same time so you don't go back? If that's the case, it would be much easier with the handbrake than the brake but whatever suits you I suppose.

Quote from XCNuse :

I'm not the only one, I'm defending everyone that doesn't use the cockpit view 24/7 because some of us don't have the graphical power to want to deal with cockpits seeing it kills FPS by almost 25%.

Three or four years ago you might had a point. But any computer built since then should be able to get 100fps with everything on max in LFS, with full AA, high res textures, and all of that nonsense on a 27" screen. On a 17" screen you'll be able to max everything out even on an iPhone CPU.

LFS just isn't that taxing on computers. My PC I bought in 2003 (now my work computer that I am typing on right now) easily gets 50fps online, my last PC that died a couple of months ago would easily get 130fps, and my current PC would get over 200fps (and that was before my 4870 arrived, so it might be a few more now). And all of those have been 'affordable', and by no means cutting edge for their era.

Sure, if you last bought a PC in 2004 (or a really, really cheap one in 2006) then you might struggle a bit (perhaps dipping to 40fps at times), but that is now a minority and shouldn't really be taken account of - see how many people want more graphical features, more polygons, more this, more that. You yourself have stated you want higher polygon models in game. All of these mean that LFS can't sit still trying to support the "I've got a shit PC, but I don't want to be left behind in the technology revolution" brigade.

I really don't think you have anything to worry about XC, there is no way in hell that there is enough people in LFS land with a preference for axis clutch and/or H pattern shifter to ever see an option like forced clutch use ever being remotely abused in LFS If any admins tried to do it there servers would die a natural death in a few weeks max Bit like when there was a move to get people to drive the LX cars in the last year or so, no matter how supportive some of us forumers might be for the LX's the reality is that the vast majority of LFS drivers vote with their wheels, mice or keyboards and stay away in preference for other cars... the same would be true for forced clutch use.

I personally like the option to be able to race on a clutch, H-pattern server. Doesn't mean I'll spend all my time on them if there was more of them, it just means I'd spend some of my time on them if there were some about. As referenced to earlier OverBoardProductions had such a server up already that could force these options, I did race on there sometimes and thoroughly enjoyed racing against other clutch, H-Pattern users. Infact it was that server that spured me onto getting off my butt and making a sim racing cockpit, which has brought back enjoyment for many games, sims long forgotten and is even perking interest in new sims (for me) such as xplane, iracing, rfactor, etc again.

I'm often bemused that there is such strong views oposing some proposed options in LFS while elsewhere the mases cry that LFS is dying because of the lack of options.
Should we all just return to LFS S1H? I know a few that would mount an argument that it was more of a pure race simulator at that point in development, but for me if LFS was still like S1H I'd have moved on permently not because S1H wasn't fun but because I would have been long since bored of the sterilness of it.

My hope for LFS is that as it continues to mature it will be less and less of a sterile environment. At the moment it is still far too easy to do near perfect laps, lap after lap after lap after lap. For example this weekend in V8Supercars the qualifying sessions was able to produce much different qualifying lap times in the first half to the last half. Forcing clutch, H-Pattern allows an extra element of variability to be introduced which then adds to the immersion, tension and excitment of racing. We have other means to do this already in LFS mainly being wind which is used very rarely online, so I'd seriously doubt that forced clutch would ever be used any more than wind currently is.

FTR - I spent the first 2 years in LFS with an xbox controller, the second 2 years with a momo and the last year an a half with G25.

Quote from XCNuse :

Also, your comment about heel toe going up a ramp doesn't make sense, why would you be downshifting going up a ramp and have to blip your throttle to keep the car steady?

How can you downshift when you aren't moving ? )
Dude, do you even have a driving licence ? If you do, did you buy it ? Or did you steal it?

Quote from gxgung :

How can you downshift when you aren't moving ? )
Dude, do you even have a driving licence ? If you do, did you buy it ? Or did you steal it?

Same way you shift a car when it's standing still.. I suppose lol
And yes, I've had my license for 5 years now.
Good grief that long?! that's just under a quarter of my entire life, wow!

@Tristan I know, but remember, a lot of people don't have money to upgrade stuff, heck if I still had my desktop, chances are it would be running the same specs it was, Pentium 4 2.4 GHz with some terrible Nvidia card that was top of the line probably back in 2002. With my laptop I have to run no AA an no AF to keep the FPS reasonable to race online, it runs considerably faster than my desktop, especially since I put a high end heat sink on my graphicss card and can OC it in my laptop, otherwise I wouldn't be getting flat 50 FPS, but rather mid/high 30s.
And remember I don't use in cockpit view, if I use it I have low and steady 40s that can dip down 40% typically in all views.

@Glenn, that's what I'm saying.. if I want to have fun, I use my H shifter and have a good time, but if I want to be fast I don't mess with it because there is such a high chance I will mess it up with it. But as I was saying, the only times I ever was trying to hit fast laptimes was when I was part of the OLFSL (oOriginal LFS League) but that was short lived because I kept having race time issues with my life.

Are you guys afraid to lose a race for someone who uses auto-clutch and sequential shifter? lol

I use mouse to steer, didn't buy the license (won it in a champ, check my signature), and have no money to buy a wheel, so what? is it really fair to exclude people like me from some servers just because I am poor and have not enough money to buy even a wheel like momo that doesn't have a clutch pedal? Momo costs around $225 (around R$450) in Brazil, G25 costs $600 (around R$1200).

Anyway, I don't think Scawen is going to take this thread seriously.

Anyone in the world can afford to buy an LFS license along with a G25, it's all a matter of prioritization. Well, okay, some African kid living in a hut propably can't afford them, but you get my point. Seems even a bit strange of someone how hasn't even spent a single dime on LFS to come spurting out such statements.

Those who have gone and blasted away tons of money (even if they are poor!) in to a hardcore racing system/cockpit aren't allowed to race against other hardcore simmers for equal level racing because why exactly? I don't get it. It would be a minority within a minority anyway, arcade racers (engage flamewar) wouldn't even notice the difference in the amount of racers in the servers they are at.

I can't even bother racing in public servers at all these days, since I know they're mixed with people who drive with mice and chasecams and other not-so-realistic options which I despise. If anything, allowing forced HC settings would increase the amount of online racers, such as myself.

Going to hazard a guess that morpha wants to force manual clutch so he has a marginal chance at winning when someone in front of him misses a shift.

Anyway... if you're really into using manual clutch, then use it. I don't understand why there has to be an option to "force" manual clutch (unless you really like racing with only five other people... there are tons of G25 users who never touch the clutch). I always race with manual clutch because I like enjoy the added realism, but I don't get butthurt whenever someone using auto clutch gets past me. It just motivates me to get better at heel-toeing.

pik_d races with a 360 controller (as he pointed out) and I've never been pissed because he won with an "inferior" controller and the evil auto clutch... he obviously understands how to drive the car very effectively (which is what really matters), he just uses a different input device. Get over it.

edit: I should clarify... I'm not totally opposed to a force manual clutch option, server ops can do whatever the hell they want. I just think there are a lot of people giving terrible arguments for it.

Quote from tmehlinger :

Anyway... if you're really into using manual clutch, then use it. I don't understand why there has to be an option to "force" manual clutch (unless you really like racing with only five other people... there are tons of G25 users who never touch the clutch). I always race with manual clutch because I like enjoy the added realism, but I don't get butthurt whenever someone using auto clutch gets past me. It just motivates me to get better at heel-toeing.

+1

Though I honestly don't see the harm of having maybe 2 or 3 (at most) servers where all clutch/h shifter users can go and just race because it's fun to race against people using the same exact setup. The option will not be abused because there simply arent enough clutch/h shifter users to support a lot of servers.