Quote from XCNuse :

Bad idea for plenty of reasons.

But the best reason is

What about the 95% of the players that dont have a clutch pedal?

Don't count on anything like this ever happening.

Yes sir!

Quote from tmehlinger :

pik_d races with a 360 controller (as he pointed out) and I've never been pissed because he won with an "inferior" controller and the evil auto clutch... he obviously understands how to drive the car very effectively (which is what really matters), he just uses a different input device. Get over it.

+1, someone got my point.

Quote from tmehlinger :

Going to hazard a guess that morpha wants to force manual clutch so he has a marginal chance at winning when someone in front of him misses a shift.

I really do NOT give a damn about the result, why do people keep attacking me for something I never even suggested. All I want is to be able to race people who, like me, aim for realism. It's really not about the result, as I said several times throughout this thread.
A gamepad is NOT REALISTIC, it's as simple as that.

Seriously, if you don't even bother reading what I actually said, do not attack me.

Quote from XCNuse :

Not sure about the edit part, I don't know if the devs have knowledge over that (I guess they could though..)

We need to set a basis as to which cars though. The only cars you can use an H shifter or sequential is the lower end cars (and FZR) I can see it almost making a difference in FZR, but anyone makes so many mistakes per lap the time difference I just .. I see what you mean, but I still think the time difference is so little it makes up for all the mistakes.

Yes, the average driver makes a lot of mistakes in a lap (braking slightly too early or slightly too late, locking wheels, running wide, power oversteer etc), but you're more liable to make MORE mistakes when your hands and feet are busier with the process of actually changing gears compared to just flicking a paddle or pressing a button to change gears.

Quote from XCNuse :

I still think my idea at the beginning was a good idea.. weight penalty for using an auto clutch vs not.

Weight penalty is a bad idea, IMO.

Quote from pik_d :

amp88, look through all of the pages for the hotlap charts. It's pretty solidly 90% auto-clutchers on every page.

So the auto clutch is quicker and manual clutch with h shifter is slower?

Quote from pik_d :

If you really want to prove that auto-clutching is faster do some testing yourself, or get others to do it. Put some effort into it too, an hour with clutch and an hour without, see how much difference it actually makes.

I have done some testing and I think the difference between auto clutch + sequential and manual clutch plus h shifter is 2 or 3 tenths in a lap (with no misshifts or wrong slots) at AS2 with an XRT. That's a pretty simple track with few braking/shifting points. The gap is only going to grow on a longer/more complex track.

Quote from morpha :

I really do NOT give a damn about the result, why do people keep attacking me for something I never even suggested. All I want is to be able to race people who, like me, aim for realism. It's really not about the result, as I said several times throughout this thread.
A gamepad is NOT REALISTIC, it's as simple as that.

Seriously, if you don't even bother reading what I actually said, do not attack me.

Dude, joking... relax. Hugs and kisses, hope you're not too upset. Moving on....

I said that if manual clutching is your thing, then do it. The game is as real as you make it and it shouldn't matter what controller the other drivers are using. They are just pretend cars going really fast in imaginary wavy circles, and you're trying to go faster than they are. You're hung up on the difference in realism between a pedal set most people can't afford and a device that anyone can pick up for 20 bucks/euros/[insert currency here] when you're racing fake cars on an imaginary track with children. If you're really hung up about realism, you need to get your priorities straight. As great as LFS is, there are a hundred things that could be more realistic about the simulation before we start controlling the real-world elements affecting the game.

Quote from tmehlinger :

If you're really hung up about realism, you need to get your priorities straight. As great as LFS is, there are a hundred things that could be more realistic about the simulation before we start controlling the real-world elements affecting the game.

Whattef..? Are you serious?

Aren't realistic real world controls the most basic of the basic starting points of simulator realism? Please tell me you are joking.

What a "fun" thread.

-1 to the suggestion, agree completely with pik_d.

Quote from Matrixi :

Whattef..? Are you serious?

Aren't realistic real world controls the most basic of the basic starting points of simulator realism? Please tell me you are joking.

Games won't be real until I taste that bug I just got between my teeth!

But on a much more serious note, well.. problem is.. even the controllers we are using (Racing games, joysticks are as realistic as any joystick you'd see in a normal plane except.. it's made of plastic)
We are a long way off from getting a controller that has the control and feel as a real car. Not to mention it will take just as long to be able to code anything so it works.
AKA.. force feedback, it has come a long way, but there is so much to improve on.. and the main problem with racing games and no matter how badass a setup you have... no force feedback on the pedals.. and if you do.. it isn't realistic seeing no game even has any control over such a thing because they aren't being sold to the general public.

So.. really.. the most realistic thing about LFS is its physics, but even then they are quite flawed (no offense Scawen, but he knows how much work he has put in to the code, but in the end.. not everything is a mathematical equation..)

@amp88 why is weight penalty a bad idea? You said you wanted it to be fair.. you penalize those with advantages, you don't banish them..

Quote from Matrixi :

Anyone in the world can afford to buy an LFS license along with a G25, it's all a matter of prioritization. Well, okay, some African kid living in a hut propably can't afford them, but you get my point. Seems even a bit strange of someone how hasn't even spent a single dime on LFS to come spurting out such statements.

Those who have gone and blasted away tons of money (even if they are poor!) in to a hardcore racing system/cockpit aren't allowed to race against other hardcore simmers for equal level racing because why exactly? I don't get it. It would be a minority within a minority anyway, arcade racers (engage flamewar) wouldn't even notice the difference in the amount of racers in the servers they are at.

I can't even bother racing in public servers at all these days, since I know they're mixed with people who drive with mice and chasecams and other not-so-realistic options which I despise. If anything, allowing forced HC settings would increase the amount of online racers, such as myself.

qft

Quote from XCNuse :

@amp88 why is weight penalty a bad idea? You said you wanted it to be fair.. you penalize those with advantages, you don't banish them..

A weight penalty penalises everything (acceleration, braking, corner speeds). A more realistic penalty would be to make the time taken to shift when using auto clutch + sequential more realistic (more on a par with a manual clutch + h shifter) in those cars where it applied. However, then you'd have a debate on what the average time to shift should be and it the auto clutch + seq driver would not be able to misshift or wrong slot.

True you could change the shift time.. but then that would technically make the shifter 'unrealistic'

HOWEVER.. you have something going there with that.

A long time ago back in the days of the RSC forum, there was a thread.. I don't remember who started it (could've been me for all I know)..
It isn't anything new to see the driver in the game shift the gears, GPL had it, Gran Turismo has it, Forza has it.

The arguement for that solution however was.. what if you are using an H gate shifter, then it would technically make it unrealistic because the game would be shifting alone.. OR.. have the game know if you're using an H gate (by having keys set for each gear would be the easiest solution), so it wouldn't have that delay.

Weight penalty, yes I agree with you, but LFS has always been about trying to get the right mix, the FXO, RB4, XRT leveling battle has been going on since S1, and even today they aren't perfectly even cars, not because of how they react, but as simple as it comes down to weight and horsepower, yes vehicle dynamics makes it much more complicated, but keeping the playing field is not easy to balance.

Another old arguement will probably be brought up after this.. well if you're going to force everyone to have the same equipment, then.. why not force everyone to use the same everything including setup to? Again.. Leagues already do this, and they don't bother with public races were you can just get on, have some fun, get off.

Quote from XCNuse :

True you could change the shift time.. but then that would technically make the shifter 'unrealistic'

How is it unrealistic to alter the time taken to shift with auto clutch closer to the time taken to shift with manual clutch? It's unrealistic at the moment because there's disparity.

Quote from Matrixi :

Whattef..? Are you serious?

Aren't realistic real world controls the most basic of the basic starting points of simulator realism? Please tell me you are joking.

I'm absolutely serious. The critical parts of the simulation--tracks, cars, tire model, aerodynamic model, engine model, weather, damage, rules, whatever--all function independently of the input device. For an arbitrary individual (me, for instance), using a steering wheel makes the total simulation more "real" than using a keyboard or mouse or a gamepad... but it doesn't matter what you use as long as the software (the part that does 99% of the simulation) makes it look like a real car when it's given an input. Case in point, you can play GT4 with a G25 and it's still not half the simulation LFS is with a mouse.

Well it depends on the car you look at in reference today I suppose, but I don't know any cars that have tiptronic (my car if it were an automatic even has tiptronic) but it shifts as fast as an automatic car normally shifts (then again.. that's because it is an automatic car, now I just sound like a dummy)

so really.. how fast does an automatic car shift compared to a manual car?
(in a real car situation, we can move on to LFS once this gets solved)

allll about progress.. anything can be refined.. well.. except maybe mothers' cooking!

Quote from Not Sure :

qft

I didn't think it was possible for more than one person in the world to care about that sort of crap, but apparently I was wrong.

Does it really bother you that people play with chase cam/auto clutch/mouse? Does it also bother you that most everyone uses a monitor instead of 3d goggles? Do you put on a helmet and start a huge box fan blowing in your face before you race?

I think you need give up LFS and save the money and buy a kart. LFS is never going be realistic enough for you.

Quote from tmehlinger :

(...)The critical parts of the simulation--tracks, cars, tire model, aerodynamic model, engine model, weather, damage, rules, whatever--all function independently of the input device.(...)

Mind you, the time used on improving keyboard and mouse support to the point where it is now could have been used for those critical parts instead if LFS was "hardcore" enough to just stick with the wheel. Not saying it would necessarily be better as it'd cost a lot of LFS's userbase, but keyboard and mouse support does affect the sim in more ways than you seem to realize, or are willing to admit.

Quote from morpha :

Mind you, the time used on improving keyboard and mouse support to the point where it is now could have been used for those critical parts instead if LFS was "hardcore" enough to just stick with the wheel. Not saying it would necessarily be better as it'd cost a lot of LFS's userbase, but keyboard and mouse support does affect the sim in more ways than you seem to realize, or are willing to admit.

Yes, it affects the sim by making it accessible to people who don't have or can't afford a wheel. When pik_d said "elitism", this is exactly what he was talking about.

You need to play iRacing. LFS isn't for you.

Quote from amp88 :

How is it unrealistic to alter the time taken to shift with auto clutch closer to the time taken to shift with manual clutch? It's unrealistic at the moment because there's disparity.

This is the solution to the problem. Just take away the advantage of using auto clutch and everything is fine.

Quote from Matrixi :

Those who have gone and blasted away tons of money (even if they are poor!) in to a hardcore racing system/cockpit aren't allowed to race against other hardcore simmers for equal level racing because why exactly? I don't get it. It would be a minority within a minority anyway, arcade racers (engage flamewar) wouldn't even notice the difference in the amount of racers in the servers they are at.

Why can't these hardcore simmers just have race between themselves and agree not to use any unrealistic options? Or how about one of them makes an Insim plugin that checks if a user has auto-clutch on (or some other option) and boots them off the server if they do?

Quote :

If anything, allowing forced HC settings would increase the amount of online racers, such as myself.

That must be the most overused line ever in the improvement suggestions area. Literally every other suggestion says that it would increase the amount of online racers...

Quote from geeman1 :

Why can't these hardcore simmers just have race between themselves and agree not to use any unrealistic options? Or how about one of them makes an Insim plugin that checks if a user has auto-clutch on (or some other option) and boots them off the server if they do?

There has already been at least one InSim application that does exactly this (determines if a user has auto clutch on and won't let them race if they do), but the complication of writing the InSim application and ensuring it is running is a lot more difficult than simply typing "/forcemanualclutch yes" into LFS or setting it in the server's config file.

Quote from amp88 :

There has already been at least one InSim application that does exactly this (determines if a user has auto clutch on and won't let them race if they do), but the complication of writing the InSim application and ensuring it is running is a lot more difficult than simply typing "/forcemanualclutch yes" into LFS or setting it in the server's config file.

Apparently not all serious sim racers are serious software developers like us.

Well then if you say there is already an instance that .. works.. then why are we discussing this anymore?

I bet if someone asked the programmer would be willing to hand out or at least give tips as to how he coded something like that....


@morpha, if Scawen wanted something to be perfectly real.. and didn't care about US.. the BUYERS.. then he wouldn't be eating dinner tonight. .. just saying, LFS is his income

Just because LFS is meant to be 100% real means he can drop the entire purpose of a business being run here off the board.
A lot of people forget that part, LFS.. sure its a game trying to mimic reality, but it's also a business, and not a good business seeing how few people in this world want to play something.. they can do if they went outside and had a lot of money to throw away.

Quote from XCNuse :

We are a long way off from getting a controller that has the control and feel as a real car.

Untrue. You sure you're living in 2009 mate? Even something cheap like G25 already feels pretty darn close to how a real car feels. And after driving with Force Dynamics, it was the last nail in the coffin for my enthusiasm for absolute, total no-compromises attempt at realism for car simulation.

Quote from tmehlinger :

Case in point, you can play GT4 with a G25 and it's still not half the simulation LFS is with a mouse.

It's rather complicated, you can FEEL the car more even in GT4 with a G25 with your hands than you can feel a car in LFS with a mouse. GT4 physics are utter shit anyway, but I'd rather drive GT5P with a G25 than LFS with a mouse.

Quote from geeman1 :

Why can't these hardcore simmers just have race between themselves and agree not to use any unrealistic options? Or how about one of them makes an Insim plugin that checks if a user has auto-clutch on (or some other option) and boots them off the server if they do?

I've made a server like that before, it had 2 drivers visit it in one week. We need big and well known reputable hosts to do these limitations for the servers to gather any more than one or two racers. Making a gentlemans agreement that everyone will use clutch and h-pat isn't going to work in public servers with the modern internet generation. Even if you make an insim script to force players to use clutch and shifter, they can just pit out/start race with those settings enabled and then quickly change back to auto clutch and whatnot. That system won't work, it needs to be hardcoded.

Quote from geeman1 :

That must be the most overused line ever in the improvement suggestions area. Literally every other suggestion says that it would increase the amount of online racers...

And being often used argument makes it any less true becaaaause .. ?

Quote from amp88 :

There has already been at least one InSim application that does exactly this (determines if a user has auto clutch on and won't let them race if they do), but the complication of writing the InSim application and ensuring it is running is a lot more difficult than simply typing "/forcemanualclutch yes" into LFS or setting it in the server's config file.

Quote from XCNuse :

Well then if you say there is already an instance that .. works.. then why are we discussing this anymore?

I know how to write such an application. I could knock one up in half an hour or so. The problem is then I have to make sure that application is running on my server, it's another piece of software that can go wrong. Putting it into LFS makes it much easier for a wider range of people to use.

Quote from amp88 :

I know how to write such an application. I could knock one up in half an hour or so. The problem is then I have to make sure that application is running on my server, it's another piece of software that can go wrong. Putting it into LFS makes it much easier for a wider range of people to use.

I know, but you see what I'm getting at though right? If it ain't broke.. don't fix it.

But if you say it's that easy to code and you've seen it once.. apparently not many people want it then because I haven't ever come across it.. just saying, if it was a big enough deal then sure I might cross it once or twice, but I didn't even know anyone had done this.

@matrixi, I don't have a G25, but I can gaurantee it doesn't feel anything like a real car would feel in the same situation.
No pedal feedback, no gearbox feedback, and extremely limited wheel feedback.. not looking so good if you think it's almost as real as a car..