Even if you refuse to agree with most of my points, what about the last one? What about the fact that this option, used by someone who wants it, is destined to be a failure? You have the ability to do this via Insim (well Matrixi does), why have Scawen invest time in something that would almost certainly be a flop?
Some of the people supporting this idea seem like some pretty close minded people, some even dispising those of us who don't use the One True Setup™. Though the one who despises us asked to have a server side option to force 900° even though the LFS road cars use 720°. Some of these guys don't have any idea what they're talking about.
Ah but I do understand your points and even agree with several of them in different aspects I just still have a differing opinion about the possible end outcomes (and yes it is only an opinion) I also agree with your last point which if you read closely my previous posts in this thread you may be able to acertain that I'd concede this point - doesn't stop me from wanting to discuss it though
Why not let the community decide if it would be a flop or not? The time it would take to code it would be pretty minimal (few hours at most) and it would provide server owners with another option.
ROFL at morpha! you big bad simmer you. i was always wondering when i would come accross a true stand out douche on a forum, and i found you!
back on topic, what are you complaining about? if you want to use your clutch just use it? serously we auto-clutch users really don't mind if you use your clutch. we hereby give permission for you to use your clutch! great now we don't need the option to dissable 90% of user accounts.
it's still a game morpha. if it were available in shops, which type of shop do you think you would find it? which type of magazine would do a review of it?
I'm here stating my opinion, nothing more, nothing less, just as you are. My opinion that it will be a flop happens to be based on something said by someone who was arguing against me.
That's the thing. You're not even trying to understand that some people, simply want to drive as CLOSE as possible to reality as they can with other people doing exactly that. LFS road car wheels turn 720, but what the hell does that matter if you want to use 900? Not a single real roadcar I've ever driven has less than 900 degrees. Even my current Mitsubishi has the fastest steering in any car I've owned yet, 900 degrees. However, I can't find a pad or a mouse for controlling the car anywhere inside, how odd.
I don't mind people driving on mice and pads or anything, just as long as I don't have to race against them. And that is why I don't even race at all anymore. Less racers, good thing, yay?
When they're as ignorant and hypocritical as you, maybe. Just because your road car has 900° doesn't mean it's realistic to use 900° when the car you're driving has 720°. I hope you don't use 900° for all LFS cars, do you?
Your holier-than-thou attitude wont get you anywhere, but keep belittling mousers and thumb twiddlers, I'm sure it feels good.
For the OP; if one day, if its confirmed that majority of the LFS racers has got a wheel with clutch pedal feature than this idea works as a opportunity or enrichment of the content or what ever you call it.
Until that day, disabling the auto-clutch is more or less an elitist approach IMO.
However, it can be done on server side for make those "no auto-clutch" ppl happy.
having read up to about #175 of all the posts, I'd just like to support the idea of implementing a server-side OPTION to chose from for
-> enforcing the use of the clutch on car-models that implement a traditional h-shift transmission
--> a second option as to limit auto-clutch efficiency would be very much welcomed on my side, as well. Let's give the POWER OF CHOICE back to the users/racers!
-> enforcing the use of the clutch on car-models that implement a transmission-type that requires its use for either "shift-down" or "get-rolling" {older sequential ; newer WRC-type sequential}
I am perfectly happy with server-side enforcing of cockpit-view
-> I use it all the time, anyway.
ALSO I would be happy to get an enhanced implementation of the multiplayer-server-list on the client-side. With hard-coded options to CHOSE from whether to strive for drift/max-realism/mouse-only/keyboard-only servers out there that makes it ultimately more comfortable to make one's own choice when "going online"
It's most annoying to find myself stranded on a drift-only server that obviously didn't include the syllable "drift" in its name what-so-ever.
actual LRF- and TBO racing (as in pick-up-racing) really suffers from this long overdue differentiation.
(just my 2 cent.)
btw.: I used to race mouse AND consistently beat a few wheel-users in the process before even going for a S2 license --and still do so today, occasionally. Please also note that I'd constantly have four of my left-hand fingers placed over keys for {clutch; shift-down; shift-up; handbrake} ... even when setting auto-clutch to "on".
LFS is great IMHO in this particular respect when it comes to accessability for the unexperienced and/or under-equipped. You'll learn a great deal about vehicle dynamics WHILE ACTUALLY RACING/DRIVING with your mouse/keyboard combination of input-device-choice even before reaching a limit that actually requires a genuine wheel-setup to overcome.
Have fun racing with each other as much as you please!
DrBen
PS.: I know how to heel'n'toe AND I've already used it online. Auto-clutch is more efficient for the most part in LFS _until_ the arrival of some additional and really nasty + fun, tightly designed and corner-packed race-tracks!
Anyway, using heel-and-toe technique and encountering one's own mistakes while practicing it teached me a great deal extra over what I already knew and mastered well. So any further discussion on that point is near-pointless to me. LFS is designed to allow for maximum where-possible-realism. On the other hand it clearly won't dictate you to utilise its many options. Even the devs know why they do what they are doing so well.
As far as i can see, the mouse / 2 pedal users are afraid to loose a small part or their G25&Co. friends who will fall inlove with a server type like that.
Small because let`s face it, who is willing to race under those conditions other than true realism "enthusiasts" (realism in driver movements too, not only in physics representation).
A large chunk of G25 users will stay to their <400 degrees & flappy paddle + autoclutch, because they are faster like that.
That "loss" IMO will be the beginning hype, over time it`ll settle just like FCV did, and those that really want to use it, will.
HardCore mode could be neat, combining a few checks(MC+FCV+"lock to lock match"...) and/or restrictions into one hardcoded server-side /HC=on parameter.
True that a Momo user could feel.. "stimulated" into upgrading equipment.. because ghetto rigging a clutch would not be enough to enter HC servers.
He`ll upgrade or play on the other servers, simple. No need for frustrations.
I think this could only add to the quality. Are you afraid this could be so much apreciated that you won`t have a server to race on?
Well, are you kidding me? Maybe such an option would make the old players, the disbanded teams etc, together again. People that don`t race anymore anyway.
This could improve the quality of the game and bring people back, not a new fwd car (though nothing wrong with that, don`t get me wrong).
Straight to the insults, way to go. That will always work on the internet when you run out of intelligent counter-arguments.
Hypocritical? You're telling me, it's not realistic to drive a non-existant fantasy 720 degree car with 900 degrees on my wheel, while you are doing it on a gamepad? I bet next you will be telling me that using cockpit cam is unrealistic because your virtual eyelashes aren't rendered.
If only you drove one week with a 900 degree wheel against gamepadders and mousers, you would discover how easily they can recover with a little twitch with their thumb/hand when another racer bumps their car and causes it to snap oversteer, while a 900 deg wheel driver has to actually physically work a lot and very quickly, and most likely still not recovering the car. That is just one example, and it causes massive rage in me when I get bumped by a padder/mouse driver causing me to spin out of control without a chance in hell of recovery, while they pass by taking my position and have the nerve to reply with a "". That is one reason why I don't do public racing anymore.
There is only one ignorant party here, and that's not where I am at. It has been proven over and over, that this suggestion wouldn't take anything away from the majority racers. Stop arguing for the fun of arguing and give the suggestion some brainwork for a while.
So you think is a controller issue ?? I am pretty sure since the first day you started to play/racing there were mousers, keyboarders involved, if now they annoy you, i am not sure is the controller is the one to blame.
i don't understand why you need the filter, when you can start you own clube right now and race only with your fellow members.
There weren't any 900 degree, 3-pedal, h-pattern wheels available since day one of LFS. Back then, I was arcade racing too with my 270 degree MSFF, even though I used manual axis clutch long before S1 was released. It is only couple years ago since I started to become irritated by not racing with other people with the same handicaps.
Creating a league and participating in it requires way too much time and commitment rather than going in to a public server when you actually feel like driving.
Please tell me what I said that makes me a douche.
€: I don't blame you for not making the distinction between a game and a simulation, but LFS is not a game, it's an Online Racing Simulator. Says so on LFS's main page.
Here's a quote from lfs.net:
I have kind of changed my mind on this. If this is a 5 minute job (like it probably is), I see no reason to not add this. I am really not 'for' this idea, but I am not 'against' it either anymore.
Altough I must say that it won't probably be as benefical as you 'HC' people seem to think. But it won't probably affect many people either.
Maybe there will be some servers that some people can't join, but they will probably be some minor servers which didn't have a huge user base in the first place. Major servers with big user bases won't probably switch in fear of losing a portion of racers, and if they do some other server will pop in to their place without the 'HC' mode.
If a major server goes 'HC' and they somehow manage to keep the userbase, that would be just great. It won't probably "bring lots of new racers", but I guess it would make some people happy. Hell, I might even come and race there myself.
I do predict that this would end up like all those LX-servers people sometimes seem to try. Everyone goes on about how great those cars are, but when someone actually sets up a server like that, there are not that many players and nobody wants to drive around alone.
just to fight the fight against plain-useless ignoracy
Straight-to-the-point example of how it is not done well. At that point - If I were in your shoes - I'd simply stop competing with "that guy" who obviously violates any given agreement on how to race cleanly. Maybe even stop going the that very server for good.
A server-side option to lock people out then would clearly improve your and my "in-game experience" to a much appreciated extend.
Needless to say - again - that a good racer knows his/her limits regardless of the input-device he/she is using at the moment of truth.
That's it what this "discussion" is all about. It's about the comprehensible quality of experience you can get when casually going online with LFS. Some want that quality of experience even when just "slacking around"(* the right word??) on public servers. Some don't care about that. We are all equal in that we all pursue different philosophies when actually diving in to our various (sometimes overlapingly similar) hobbies.
One - and only one of mine - happens to do "casual racing" on lfs. Sometimes I enjoy maximum "realism" (tell me what "fast" cars currently on sale are there that actually outperform others utilising traditional h-shift). Sometimes I ditch "realism" for the best possible practice of simply driving fast and competitively.
To each their own - exactly _how_ they want it precisely when _they_ want it
Dude, you don't have to use a wheel to know that using the full 900 degrees of rotation is a waste of energy. If the car has at most 720 degrees lock-to-lock, you're adding half a turn of the wheel just for the silly "I use all 900!!11" merit badge. It's kind of like how you don't need to be an engineer to know why crashing a car is bad. That was a piss-poor cop-out and you know it.
If I drove one week with a 900 degree wheel (wait, I do) and used all 900 degrees of rotation (I don't, I can do arithmetic), I'd probably still not be exerting myself all that much physically because it's just a game.
You have turned this argument from "this option would add realism to the game" to "this option would get those damn, dirty, poor, inferior cheaters" out of the game. Get over yourself.
I mean the consistency of the arguments again this suggestion is paper-thin. Nobody ever came up with something that didn't sound like an elaborate way to say "I want LFS to stay the same for ever and ever"
You guys had a great ideea. LFS Servers could have different modes, like "Noob-zone", "Hardocre", "Nightmare". Giving the mods names and impelmenting this in the server list could give the players a lot of choise. You can join a light server and use auto-clutch and no force-feedback, or join a Nightmare server and use all the options that make driving realistic but hard.
Btw, some dope names could also bring people into LFS, so this would be great for everyone (even the producers).
I really hope the game artists get to see this and it doesn't get eclipsed by the post-flood on this topic.
1) Straight to the "insults"..... after having been replying for pages upon pages.
2) If you think you haven't been insulting then you're deluded. You claim to despise people like me, you clearly look down on people who don't feel the same way as you.
3) I called you ignorant and then pointed out WHY you're ignorant. You use 900° where there is literally no reason (not even realism) to use it. As tmehlinger said you're doing it basically to have some 900° merit badge. You can't even counter that argument so you simply link to some image that does nothing for your argument.
Yes, I am telling you it is unrealistic to drive a non-existent 720° car with 900° of steering, while I do the same thing on a gamepad. The distinction that you failed to make is that you claimed you were being realistic, where I didn't. You're wrong, me being even less realistic doesn't change that fact at all.
I dunno man, if they could control their car as well as you claim they can, they probably wouldn't have hit you. I don't buy your argument though, I'm a thumb twiddler and I don't have some uncanny ability to recover from a bump induced snap-oversteer. Sometimes I get lucky and I get the recovery just right, most of the time I'm sailing off into the grass/sand/wall just like you would.
Besides, my steering has about one inch of travel, you've got a steering wheel close to a foot across (well, closer to a foot than an inch I can guarantee). It's pretty hard to be quick and delicate to be just right when you've only got an inch of travel. I've gotten good only through countless hours, but some guys I race with in wheels seem to get to be as quick as I am in a lot fewer laps.
You're right, it probably wouldn't take anything away from the majority of racers, but almost every single argument you've given has been rage induced or just flat out illogical. I just dismantled some of your arguments based on personal experience and logic, I've yet to see you do the same to well... anyone.
Pretty much everything you said from your first post onwards? You seem to believe that anyone that isn't completely obsessed with LFS and spending all their money and time on it does not deserve to be playing the game.
There is nothing wrong with having LFS as your number 1 hobby, go for it but if you can't recognise that some people have different priorities and enjoy other things outside of computer games your an elitist douche. On top of that, some people might not have $400 to spend on a steering wheel. to exclude them because they dont have the latest steering wheel on the market is again, a douche idea. you are just having a cry because you can't keep up with the people using auto-clutch so you want them to be slowed down to your speed.
if an F1 team comes out with a H pattern with clutch should all the other teams be forced to change to a H pattern with clutch so the other team isn't disadvantaged? no, that team should have a cup of concrete and harden the fk up. use auto-clutch or accept you will be a little bit slower.
yep its a sim and a sim is a GAME.
Some of these guys don't have any idea what they're talking about.
I just still have a differing opinion about the possible end outcomes (and yes it is only an opinion) I also agree with your last point which if you read closely my previous posts in this thread you may be able to acertain that I'd concede this point - doesn't stop me from wanting to discuss it though 
which type of magazine would do a review of it? 
". That is one reason why I don't do public racing anymore.