I am a bit confused, I was called out for being a douche and then said something that, as you put it, was a rotten thing to say?
So what was a rotten thing to say? That the 95% of auto clutch using players should find themselves a game? Sorry if you think so, but fact is that the number of community members on lfsforum who think of LFS as a mere game is alarmingly high, while Scaven, Eric and Victor want it to be and be treatet as a professional simulation.
Sure, in terms of availability, adding auto clutch and probably the best mouse and keyboard support in the genre was a good thing. Not so for the hardcore simmers, who did not in any way benefit from either of those features. It's essentially a waste of Scawen's time for that group, seen anyone complain? Well yes, I did, in response to previous "waste of time" statements from your side of the table.
Yes thankfully Scawen has never been dictated by what the majority want but more by what vission he has for LFS.
FCV wasn't a waste for me at all, in fact it has brought more life to LFS for me! I always used custom wheel draw view for years (partly for fps but also partly for easier precision in placing your car on the track), it was the introduction of FCV that got me out of that rut to try something different and I am now comfortable and enjoy cockpit view more than any other view now.
Scawen is currently looking with some interest at the shadow system and how it behaves on linux machines. I'm guessing the population of linux users who run LFS on there machines is pretty much a minority group also, so the whole arhument about majority rules is pretty mute.
And as I've said I've already enjoyed racing on a clutch H-pattern forced server with FCV and no helps etc and enjoyed it a great deal even though there wasn't many people on the server. The dynamics are just different and is something worthwhile even if it is for a minority group imo.
This is common claim by people who don't write software for a living, and it's simply wrong. First of all, you or I don't know anything about his code; it could require modification in two or three places, or it could require modification in a couple dozen places. Once he's changed the code, he has to test it himself. If it causes other problems, he has to debug it. Then it has to go to the testers. The testers give feedback, he makes more changes. He inadvertently introduces another bug, has to fix that. It goes on and on and on. Adding features to software is not a five minute job, especially when you have an audience of thousands of people.
First, you can't even compare LFS to other games. There is one developer who takes a remarkable amount of community input; there are very few other games like it. Second, there isn't a sizable minority of people here clamoring for a useful feature; there's an extremely small minority of people who want a feature they can implement themselves.
So because the minority is extremely small (I guess neither of us has precise figures, so it's yet another assumption), they should just "get over themselves" or learn how to code an InSim (which by the way, depending on their hosting company, they might not be able to run) to take care of it?
There are many people using auto clutch, mouse, keyboard, gamepad, etc., and by adding these features to make the game more accessible, they're making money. Lots more money than they would have if they were catering solely to hardcore simmers. Hardcore simmers aren't complaining about it being a waste of time because most of them aren't that stupid.
Great job massaging the context to make me look dumb. Turns out you don't have to write software for a living to know how to write code. "Write software for a living" means "get paid to do it" and when you're "getting paid to do it" the process is a lot more sophisticated than what hobbyist programmers do in their spare time. Nice try.
By being in the extremely small minority, you have low priority. There a lot more features further up the list than this one.
I'm not deluded enough to think any feature that is suggested immediately becomes a priority for Scawen to add to LFS. All the improvement section of the forum really is for is a place were people can get off their chest an idea they might have in a way that doesn't interupt Scawen from his main job such as OT posts in the test patch forum, 99.999% of the ideas that are posted have been posted before.
I'm sure that Scawen has well and truely hashed out the direction he wants to take LFS. On occassion though a thread title or one of the people he communicates with might point him to a particular thread, and he might make note of it. But other than that I'd has it a guess that the majority of what goes on in here goes pretty much unnoticed.
I've submited what I consider a pretty serious bug report more than a year ago, never got a reply to the post or a pm (I also pm'd Bob about it and he left a message for Scawen) so I know that it would have been noted and that Scawen probably was already aware of it but because it would upset so much in the way of HL an such I'm sure it will get addressed at some stage when a major physics overhaul takes place.
So I wouldn't worry too much about any I'll advised changes being made to LFS that will alienate you all, because the whole process is much slower than that and hence will ensure that the stupid idea's don't get through
The question remains though what Scawen thinks is stupid is most likely different to what you or I think is stupid
This is common claim by people who want to win an argument by any means, and it's simply wrong. First of all, you or I don't know anything about his code; it could require modification in one or more places, or it could require modification in a couple dozen places. Once he's changed the code, he has to test it himself. If it causes other problems, he has to debug it. Then it has to go to the testers. The testers give feedback, he makes more changes. He inadvertently introduces another bug, has to fix that. It goes on and on and on. Adding features to software is not a five minute job, especially when you have an audience of thousands of people. But it could have taken no more than 30 seconds, and due the simplicity of the outcome it's fairly likely to be closer to that than 3 months.
I can compare LFS to other games. It features a 3D graphics engine, physics recreations, control systems and view systems, and is attempting to generate a form of reality on our computers. That's pretty comparible. And Scawen still codes code, so that's comparible too. And regardless of the size of the minority, it's a change that is more than likely within Scawen's vision, and therefore (like FCV) is a possible and sensible candidate for inclusion.
Considering the size of the community, the running costs of the master server, lfsworld, lfs.net and lfsforum and the fact that a license is a one-time payment, are you absolutely certain that they earn more money than if there were only hardcore simmers (and of course no auto clutch and mouse/keyboard support, since it wouldn't be necessary)? Please do feel free to point me to all the information you have on this matter.
Turns out you don't have to write software for a living to know how hard it is to implement a feature, based on how you would implement it in your own style. Also, why do you think it would take Scawen significantly longer than any InSim coder to implement the feature? It might not be the most efficient implementation (it most certainly is not), but in theory Scawen could use exactly the same data the InSim would use.
I don't disagree, but should we completely abbandon the idea just because it might not be the first thing implemented with the next patch? Because that's what you, pik_d, XCNuse and the others seem to want.
holy crap people...like i said before (and i know i wont make a difference in this discussion :razz work together and find a way to make this idea better...and stay on topic about the origional idea (no auto-clutch allowed)
There would probably be less than 1/10th of the current userbase if LFS only catered for the absolute "hardcore simmers". You don't really need any information for that, just common sense.
wa wa wa wa wa wait..... if you don't care about standings, then why the hell do you care if people don't use a clutch? It makes no difference to you then! so why are you here? you don't care about standings which is the only thing it might possibly change which i doubt it.
here is a solution though since you are actually worried about standings or you wouldn't be in this thread, if it's a league race, swap over to auto-clutch so you can knock of that 0.1 seconds per lap, then in public server, do your clutch thing, cuz noone cares what you come in a public server, and if all you guys that enjoy clutching with each other, like someone else said, make it a private server??
Sure and it'd cost the same to run and maintain, right? Looking at just the earnings, it's a no-brainer, but what about the expenses?
You obviously don't understand, nor do you seem to want to understand. It is not about the standings, several different people told you multiple times. Take it as a fact, please.
Which we obviously do not want...
See below.
And why does it bother you if we do it on a public server that you are not on?
Errr. most of you folk on the very much pro side have said jackall other then you don't feel everyone else is worthy to race with you extreme simmer gamer people, and don't want people to have an advantage because they aren't as realistic as you. even though rofl a g25 does not make it all that much more realistic then a momo when compared to driving a car. i take it you get full dressed up in racing gear and a helmet and have hans device? i take it when your racing in a tintop on a clear sunny day at FE you put ur heater on aswell to simulate the horrible heat? i take it when you hit a wall and 250k's you go throw yourself off a building to simulate death? no? why not? its a simulator and u are tyring to get close to the real thing no?
yes morpha, some of the guys on the pro side have made a decent point, but all you have done is preached about how people are not worthy of your attendance in the races because you have a g25. don't now try and play on the side of the people that brought up a decent point to try and dig your way out. just makes their point seem irrelevant. btw i thought you said you were leaving and not participating in this thread anymore?
Just a small thing - nobody has suggested that LFS only supports no auto clutch. That would indeed be crazy. The idea is to give an option so that manual clutchers (and/or h-gaters) can race with like minded people some of the time. That is all.
Quote me, show me where I do.
I have said some condescending things, but you obviously took those very personal and blend out everything else I said.
And yes, I said I would not participate anymore. I might now just stop doing so, we've had a long enough discussion about what was supposed to be a simple suggestion, I'll be one less to put fuel on the fire.
Question I have is why does one who uses manual clutch not want to drive against someone who is. Reading previous post I cant really pinpoint it because if its not for the position and is just for realism, then why does it matter if you are on a pub server with other people using different control types?
Does one really want the single coder for this game to put his time into a feature that isn't needed to accomplish the goal? Regardless of all that has been said it comes down to that for me. I rather time be spent making the core game better.
i'm not going through the whole thread to quote almost every post you made morpha.
by the way, if i got your profile name right, over 1/3 of your laps are on oval if i read correctly which is the track that you change gears the least on. most of these are using the BF1 which are paddle shift anyway, and your last online race was a month ago. Yes you take sim racing very seriously i see and you have so many reasons to be concerned with people not using a clutch. ROFL
I'll try make it clearer for you, I think you will find a lot don't race for the win. This does not mean we don't enjoy winning or that we don't try to better ourselves to win more often, it just means we enjoy a good scrap with racers of similar ability. If I'm right at the back of the field but there is someone who is fighting with me for position then even if we come last and second last it is a good race. Conversely if I'm in the top three and I'm scraping for 2nd place I'm just as content too if we scrap to the end as if I pass him and go on to win. On the other hand if I pull away from everyone and win comfortably I wouldn't call that a good race.
So what are the factors that set the tone for a good scrap then and why do I prefer to race against human in preference to AI? (this game or other games)
It's a genuine question.
The main reason I prefer to race against humans is because they are not robots! What I mean is that humans will make mistakes, they will buckle under pressure, they will get tired, etc They have a WILL. The most thrilling part about racing is a battle of wills, not one being superior to another in skills or equipment, etc which is why so many see LFS as a great platform to race on.
That's one component of the question for me, the other is the oportunity for those things to transpire. In LFS we have cars that are pretty equal which leads to two drivers of equal skills having a good race, in the LFS environment at the moment drivers can make errors so the above does happen to a certain extent (that's why I'm here!) but I beleive it could happen to a much greater extent with more variables in play. Variables like less perfect road surfaces, dynaically variable grip levels due to sand, deberis, rubber laid down and track temperature variations. Variables such as better representation of tyre wear / damage, wheather conditions and vehicale damage. All these things would make it more dificult to do perfect lap after lap which in turn when you put two people of similar ability together it will ensure a closer more thrilling race, rather than a close race until one opens a small gap only for it to stay that way for the rest of the race.
Now that leads me to this option suggestion. Using a clutch H-Pattern setup does throw an extra variable into the mix in that it opens up another avenue of error for a driver. Therefore racing against other clutch H-Pattern users is exciting because you will both likely make small mistakes and your shifting times, braking manouvers etc are all going to be more variable than other methods of driving. This adds to the excitement of a good scrap with another equal competitor imeasurably. It's something that is hard to explain, hopefully this discription helps.
It does not mean that if we choose to race this way (if it's available) that we are better or any such thing, all it means is that we can experience racing to the best of what our setup allows. This does not necessarily have to be on packed servers, I for one have always had my best battles on servers with less than 15 people racing often with only 3 to 6 people are needed. Numbers don't mean as much to me as finding people of similar ability, hence why I'm in favour of such options even if it will only be used by a minority.
this, in my opinion is a good idea, but on percentage wise out of 100% i would give a 60-40 advantage to this being a bad idea...
as people have mentioned here - what about the people without a clutch pedal? I mean, its possible to still use clutch by having a button (like i do) but its easier to have auto clutch on sometimes.
E.G : I currently have to put up with a Logitech Driving Force EX, its 180 degrees and has Accelerator and Brake Pedals ONLY. It has paddle shifters, and on the front is based on a ps2 controller (as its for PS2/PC originally).
Its easier to have auto-clutch as really once fully setup with all your buttons, the only button left free is in an awkward position.
I wont complain though, just thought i would add my opinion to this as i am a "Crappy Wheel" victim
(off topic : I WANT MY G25 WORKING)(and if this post is crappy or not making sense - its 5am)
work together and find a way to make this idea better...and stay on topic about the origional idea (no auto-clutch allowed)
)(and if this post is crappy or not making sense - its 5am)