Ok I understand what you are saying Glenn67. With me being an open wheeler almost exclusively, maybe I am missing some of this argument though. I just don't mind much at all what people use as long as they race fair.

I get the variables that it introduces and all but.....ehhh

Like I said before, whatever yes or no....but at the same time seems useless since there is nothing stopping you guys from doing it now in a different manner.

Quote from morpha :

Sure and it'd cost the same to run and maintain, right? Looking at just the earnings, it's a no-brainer, but what about the expenses?

No, but the amount of money lost by less licence sales would be far bigger than the amount of money "earned" by less expenses on the server/websites, IMO.

Quote from SidiousX :

Or you could do what I did when I used a MOMO and bind the clutch to the left paddle shifter?

Solved, IMPLEMENT IT

Then what do you do with the people that don't have that many buttons?

My other wheel only has 2 pedals, 4 buttons on the face, and two.. not even flappy paddles in the back, just two big buttons.. how would they shift?

Plus.. that's defying the point of everyone arguing for this.

The reason it's being argued for is to make the game more realistic, using a button as a clutch is going in the wrong/opposite direction.

As stated above (still have to re-read all the relevant posts after my last visit, so please don't get bad feelings if this won't answer every question that was adressed to me -- short on time today)

it is about an option that will allow server-admins to single out a few online racing-sites exclusively for a full-fledged driving-rig set up on each of the race-participants' desks. It would not - in any way - disqualify people with lesser input-devices for online racing. It would be just an attempt at giving the casual reality-afficionados a convenient option to quickly go for a couple of rounds from within the lfs' user interface; i.e. without the need of organizing a "team-event" under password-protection, which could still be quite prone to "cheating" (if this even qualifies for being called upon in such a manner).

Each and every racer will still have the choice to get into races where no restrictions apply what-so-ever. One could even implement a 'room' for mouse-only or keboard-only racers that are striving for some inner competition.

But this would all be implemented under the strict rule of openness.

Simply YOUR CHOICE
...every time you click further than "multiplayer" in your copy of lfs.

Greets
&
race fair and square
DrBen

The more you people endlessly whine against this option, the more is clear it is YOU that want to limit the usage that other people may want to make of LFS.

First it was "burn the cruiser" then "burn the drifter" and now what?

Burn the simracer that want to use a clutch and shifter?

Call it 'hardcore' so you can marginalize the concept and write it off as some silly extravaganza ?

And this is all for what? Because you fear tomorrow you won't be able to race in chase view with your gamepad and still go for the WR

Could someone explain how it currently works to get racing with people who also shift with clutch and H-shifter? I understand I need the program In-Sim? How do I need to set this up and where can I race this then? Are there Leagues running like that? Would be nice from someone to explain how this all works.

Quote from George Kuyumji :

Could someone explain how it currently works to get racing with people who also shift with clutch and H-shifter? I understand I need the program In-Sim? How do I need to set this up and where can I race this then? Are there Leagues running like that? Would be nice from someone to explain how this all works.

InSim is not a program you can download and run. It's a protocol that Scawen wrote into LFS that can send information from LFS to an external application. There's a wide variety of information that can be transmitted through InSim including things like split times, laptimes, current speed and heading of drivers, the license plate of a racer and, most importantly in this context, what controller type and 'aids' the driver is using. When a player joins the current session (joins the race from the pits or from spectating) a packet is sent out which contains the controller and 'aids' information. If you have a program running which receives that packet it can check the controller and 'aids' the driver is using and if they aren't allowed (e.g. the driver is using a keyboard and auto clutch but the server requires a wheel and manual clutch) the program can send a command to LFS to spectate or kick the driver (and tell them they need to use a wheel and manual clutch to race on this server).

The most popular applications written for LFS that use the InSim protocol are LFSLapper and Airio, but I don't know whether they support forced controllers in their current development states.

More information about InSim can be found in your LFS/docs/InSim.txt file or here in LFS Manual.

Quote from NightShift :

The more you people endlessly whine against this option, the more is clear it is YOU that want to limit the usage that other people may want to make of LFS.

Nothing about being against the option limits anything that one can do. It just doesn't offer the convenience.

Whining, that is on both sides of this argument. From what I can tell, a lot of the feeling on the against side is that those who are for have a bit of an attitude that they are better than others.....which your gamepad comment kinda shows.

Quote :

Some people take LFS and other sims serious enough to spend a lot of money on their equipment, on wheels, racing frames, shifters and pedals, motion simulators even. Those people are dedicated to sim-racing and expect the same dedication from everyone they race.

Not everyone have money for all that stuff... I take LFS as an simulator, but i still have only dfgt BECOUSE i don't have enought money for g25, or some cool extra hyber shifter...

The point is that everyone in this game doesn't have money to buy a wheel that haves clutch pedal, they all cost over 200€

Quote from Uke :

Not everyone have money for all that stuff... I take LFS as an simulator, but i still have only dfgt BECOUSE i don't have enought money for g25, or some cool extra hyber shifter...

The point is that everyone in this game doesn't have money to buy a wheel that haves clutch pedal, they all cost over 200€

Dude, you are talking about a issue that doesn't exist. If you don't have the money to buy a clutch you can join a normal server and play there. Why should you play against people who take the game seriously ? You can play with people who take it JUST as a game.
Stop acting like this is such a problem ... you just have to click on another server in your server list.

@gxgung; "Why should you play against people who take the game seriously ? You can play with people who take it JUST as a game." interesting comment. Do you believe this really? If so, seriousness is kind a sickness, disorder or something like that?
I wonder when ppl realize that this is just another game, a good one. You could have enough money to get yourself a superb rig with frex wheel mounted etc, but this is shows one thing for sure; that you can afford it, that is it. Beyond that point no one can say that if somebody have not got a decent controller than he/she don't taking it serious. How possibly one can know that?

Its like saying that if you don't have a Ferrari or Porsche than you don't take the driving activity serious enough.

Server side option for the clutchers is not a problem for me, ppl can do what ever they want without disturbing others.

Quote from halo :

@gxgung; "Why should you play against people who take the game seriously ? You can play with people who take it JUST as a game." interesting comment. Do you believe this really? If so, seriousness is kind a sickness, disorder or something like that?
I wonder when ppl realize that this is just another game, a good one. You could have enough money to get yourself a superb rig with frex wheel mounted etc, but this is shows one thing for sure; that you can afford it, that is it. Beyond that point no one can say that if somebody have not got a decent controller than he/she don't taking it serious. How possibly one can know that?

Its like saying that if you don't have a Ferrari or Porsche than you don't take the driving activity serious enough.

Server side option for the clutchers is not a problem for me, ppl can do what ever they want without disturbing others.

A guy we all know said the same thing earlier. He said that a G25 is much too expensive and that he can't afford that. After some threads he told us that he is going to buy a iPod that is actually more expensive then a G25.
I don't have a iPod. This is my phone: http://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_1200-1976.php
I bought my phone with a offer from a local phone company and i paid only 1 euro for it. I was saving money for my G25.

So, as far as a I see, I have the same financial state as the guy we were speaking about, but I take the game seriously and he doesn't.

@gxgung; your sentence is generalized thus may perceived (by me for example) as you don't expected to.

You and him (ipod guy) in same financial situations and he chooses one thing to another
than this could be an indication of something as you pointed out above.

Quote from Furryappleseed :

Nothing about being against the option limits anything that one can do. It just doesn't offer the convenience.

Whining, that is on both sides of this argument. From what I can tell, a lot of the feeling on the against side is that those who are for have a bit of an attitude that they are better than others.....which your gamepad comment kinda shows.

LOL! Nice try!

But you're out of luck. Strawmanning the wrong guy You see I've raced with a gamepad for quite some time myself!

Ya I assumed.....I will go back to my corner now :munching_

Quote from XCNuse :

Then what do you do with the people that don't have that many buttons?

My other wheel only has 2 pedals, 4 buttons on the face, and two.. not even flappy paddles in the back, just two big buttons.. how would they shift?

Plus.. that's defying the point of everyone arguing for this.

The reason it's being argued for is to make the game more realistic, using a button as a clutch is going in the wrong/opposite direction.

technically, it's going into the right direction, even if the clutch is assigned to a button, they are still using the clutch, I would prefer that than having somebody not use the clutch at all.

maybe, but doing so would be so unnatural and weird, I'm pretty sure the devs wouldn't do anything like that.

If I get forced to reach and hold a button on my steering wheel while trying to drive, and then press another button to shift, then let go off both buttons, I will never get online again.

Quote from XCNuse :

maybe, but doing so would be so unnatural and weird, I'm pretty sure the devs wouldn't do anything like that.

If I get forced to reach and hold a button on my steering wheel while trying to drive, and then press another button to shift, then let go off both buttons, I will never get online again.

Keyword(PADDLE) It is NOT an effort to hit let off the gas, hold paddle, shift, let go of paddle. Even if they choose to use a button, most buttons on wheels are within thumbs reach, if not, bind it to a button that is...

Quote from SidiousX :

Keyword(PADDLE) It is NOT an effort to hit let off the gas, hold paddle, shift, let go of paddle. Even if they choose to use a button, most buttons on wheels are within thumbs reach, if not, bind it to a button that is...

it would still suck for people without a clutch axis, or people like me (except without a g25) who are kids (im 14) who are elarning to race.

Quote from SidiousX :

Keyword(PADDLE) It is NOT an effort to hit let off the gas, hold paddle, shift, let go of paddle. Even if they choose to use a button, most buttons on wheels are within thumbs reach, if not, bind it to a button that is...

And for everyone that uses the paddles like real cars...?

I have to reach from where I'm holding the wheel, and holding it to shift... no, not going to happen 40x around a track.

Button clutch shifting is going the wrong way, this is to make racing in LFS more realistic and fair, not.. painful and confusing for everyone else.

Quote from XCNuse :

And for everyone that uses the paddles like real cars...?

I have to reach from where I'm holding the wheel, and holding it to shift... no, not going to happen 40x around a track.

Button clutch shifting is going the wrong way, this is to make racing in LFS more realistic and fair, not.. painful and confusing for everyone else.

last time I checked, you don't use the clutch with the sequential transmissions in LFS

Quote from SidiousX :

last time I checked, you don't use the clutch with the sequential transmissions in LFS

i do

Quote from SidiousX :

last time I checked, you don't use the clutch with the sequential transmissions in LFS

... you .. dont

but we're talking about everyone here that doesn't have an H gate shifter.. what would they use to shift.. if you're to busy using a paddle as a clutch

Quote from XCNuse :

And for everyone that uses the paddles like real cars...?

I have to reach from where I'm holding the wheel, and holding it to shift... no, not going to happen 40x around a track.

I wanted to stay out of this discussion from where I left it, but this I have to pick up. You do realize people with clutch pedals move their clutch foot quite a bit everytime they shift? It's not the same motion as reaching for a button of course, but is the amount of physical work done really that different?

The only difference I see is that you lose a bit of control if you have to use the hand you're steering with to operate the clutch, but that can be solved by assigning clutch, shift-up and shift-down to buttons close to eachother or easy-to-reach buttons on the wheel.

On the Momo for example:
I would assign clutch to one of the left side buttons, up-shift to the top right one and down-shift to the bottom right one, that way you'd keep both hands on the wheel, which is probably the best compromise.

One more thing: Button clutch is better than auto clutch in terms of realism, especially since LFS knows only 4 clutch states which kind of renders a fully analog clutch pointless. That is of course just an observation based on how it reacts to my clutch input and what I know about the position update packets sent to the server when driving online, but the point is, a manually operated clutch, be it digital or analog, is better than auto clutch IMHO.

<morpha leaves again>

So you're saying you would rather see more people go off the track trying to shift and getting carpal tunnel in their fingers than anyone that can shift with pedals like a normal car....?

Button clutch is never real, show me a car that has a button for the clutch and I will think reconsider.

There are cars that .. don't have manual pedal clutches, and those that are semi autos where you shift but the clutch is all automated.. you can get one in your car if you honestly wanted, but a clutch 'button'?

I think not.