Quote from XCNuse :

So you're saying you would rather see more people go off the track trying to shift and getting carpal tunnel in their fingers than anyone that can shift with pedals like a normal car....?

You must have severely deformed thumbs if pushing a button on your wheel is that hard to do for you. Don't blame me for poorly assigned buttons, I told you and everyone else who cares to read my posts how I would do it if I didn't have the G25 but a Momo instead. Most wheels have buttons on the wheel within reach of your thumbs, if yours does not, you should consider getting a new one like the Momo, which is dirt cheap.

Quote from XCNuse :

Button clutch is never real, show me a car that has a button for the clutch and I will think reconsider.

Like I said, at least it's manually operated, which makes it more realistic than having LFS do the clutch work for you in a manual car. The auto clutch is not part of the simulation, it's a player input modification of sorts. Your car in LFS does not have an automatic clutch if the option is enabled, LFS just operates it for you.

Quote from XCNuse :

There are cars that .. don't have manual pedal clutches, and those that are semi autos where you shift but the clutch is all automated..

Not in LFS, where it's either a proper manual or a proper sequential, no computer controlled thing that's something inbetween. I'm not saying they are bad, I'm just saying there is no such thing in LFS.

I have a momo racing, but it is entirely uncomfortable to hold a button for a few seconds, and pressing a button 400 times back and forth on the track... will hurt.

It doesn't matter if it's manually operated or not, this thread is about making things "as realistic as possible" using a button for a clutch is hardly realistic by any means to begin with!

It doesn't matter if it's properly designed in LFS or not, that's what we have.. deal with it.

I mean if you're really set on making it right, then buy everyone here that doesn't have a wheel and clutch set a G25 or some ACT Labs parts if they still make it.


Using my clutch pedal and H shifter messes me up driving my real car as it is, using a clutch button.. No.

Quote from XCNuse :

I have a momo racing, but it is entirely uncomfortable to hold a button for a few seconds, and pressing a button 400 times back and forth on the track... will hurt.

Well that's funny, mouse and keyboard users hold at least one button for almost all the time on the track (throttle that is) and click one to three other ones (brakes and in case of kb users left/right) very often, doesn't keep them from doing lots and lots of virtual miles so it can't hurt that much, unless they're all masochists.
And don't say "Well but not with their thumbs" because that's where the gamepad users come into play, where almost every button press and the steering input is usually done with the thumbs.

Quote from XCNuse :

It doesn't matter if it's manually operated or not, this thread is about making things "as realistic as possible" using a button for a clutch is hardly realistic by any means to begin with!

In what world is auto clutch more realistic than a manually operated clutch? If you don't have anything else, a button is as realistic as possible (under the circumstances, for that person).

Quote from XCNuse :

It doesn't matter if it's properly designed in LFS or not, that's what we have.. deal with it.

What are you talking about? Where did I say something was not properly designed?

Quote from XCNuse :

I mean if you're really set on making it right, then buy everyone here that doesn't have a wheel and clutch set a G25 or some ACT Labs parts if they still make it.

Quote from XCNuse :

Using my clutch pedal and H shifter messes me up driving my real car as it is, using a clutch button.. No.

How so?

1 A keyboard has how many buttons? This thread is about wheels and clutches, not buttons or keys for that matter

2 The world we live in.. seeing that just about any car that has paddles is an automated gearbox

3 .. I don't know lol I must've missread something

4 uh yea

5 Because in LFS I don't treat a clutch like you're supposed to, it's either clutch in or clutch out for me with my pedal in LFS, nothing in between, do that in any car and you'll stall it, make it jump, etc. etc.

Quote from XCNuse :

1 A keyboard has how many buttons? This thread is about wheels and clutches, not buttons or keys for that matter

The more buttons something has, the less painful is it to operate. Thanks, didn't know that! This thread is about whatever you want to talk about until it gets inconvenient? Because it originally was about implementing a no-autoclutch option, not wheels and clutches, not buttons or methods of input, not about what's more realistic, ...

Quote from XCNuse :

2 The world we live in.. seeing that just about any car that has paddles is an automated gearbox

We're obviously talking about different kinds of realism, I'm talking about making it "accurate", as in "according to what's in the simulation/on the screen" and you are talking about the method of input itself. From that point of view I will agree, you will never drive a real car with a button clutch because such a thing simply does not exist, but driving what is supposed to be a manual, behaves like one and looks like one using the same method you use for a sequential is not realistic from my original point of view.

Quote from XCNuse :

5 Because in LFS I don't treat a clutch like you're supposed to, it's either clutch in or clutch out for me with my pedal in LFS, nothing in between, do that in any car and you'll stall it, make it jump, etc. etc.

Yeah like I said, there seem to be only 4 states the clutch can be in in LFS, plus you don't feel the clutch engagement point (hope that's the correct translation). However, I don't see how this could be a problem, I mean it's just like switching from one car to another, adjusting to the different clutch behaviour shouldn't take long. That's me though, being someone who regularly switches between 3 different cars, occasionally driving something completely new. Don't know how it is if you're used to just one car and rarely drive anything else.

Quote from XCNuse :

I have a momo racing, but it is entirely uncomfortable to hold a button for a few seconds, and pressing a button 400 times back and forth on the track... will hurt.

It doesn't matter if it's manually operated or not, this thread is about making things "as realistic as possible" using a button for a clutch is hardly realistic by any means to begin with!

It doesn't matter if it's properly designed in LFS or not, that's what we have.. deal with it.

I mean if you're really set on making it right, then buy everyone here that doesn't have a wheel and clutch set a G25 or some ACT Labs parts if they still make it.


Using my clutch pedal and H shifter messes me up driving my real car as it is, using a clutch button.. No.

If you have a MOMO, you don't need the paddles for shifting, like I said before, use the sequential shifter for shifting, and the paddle for clutch...simple as that!

Quote from SidiousX :

If you have a MOMO, you don't need the paddles for shifting, like I said before, use the sequential shifter for shifting, and the paddle for clutch...simple as that!

But I use the paddles for shifting like MOST cars do...

Quote from XCNuse :

But I use the paddles for shifting like MOST cars do...

Sequentials, yes. Manuals have that stick thingy if I'm not completely mistaken, but what do I know.

Yea.. who says every car made is a manual car?

Uhm? Hello? We are talking about disallowing auto clutch, which is used to make manuals in LFS behave like sequentials. You make use of this functionality, you shift manuals in LFS like sequentials.
For that you use the paddles on your Momo, then when confronted with the fact that you don't have to use the paddles, you say you do it because that's how MOST cars are built. Okay, but the cars in LFS that you use this feature for are not, not at all, they are not even sequentials, they have a stick and no paddles. Use paddles if you prefer, but it is of NO relevance how it's done on "MOST" cars.

So you're then telling me that all of Honda's small car line up is a fraud by adding flappy paddles that actually do something?

You don't have to use a clutch with paddles.. why should you have to in LFS?

Who says they have a manual stickshift?



Mazda 3 with a boot over the gear selector.. it looks like a manual to me at first sight, but underneath that boot is a bunch of plastic and a heavy trans

What exactly does that have to do with the fact that you drive MANUAL cars IN LFS as if they were sequentials? I have always been talking about LFS, if something I said led you to believe otherwise, I'm confused but I apologize.

Because who SAID it IS a manual car???

For all we know the GTi is whatever we want it to be whether it be (hence the OPTION) H gate, flappy paddles, or fully automatic!

And that hasn't changed in all of LFS, in fact it didn't use to be H gate, back in the good old days all you had the option of is either sequintial or automatic

Quote from XCNuse :

Because who SAID it IS a manual car???

For all we know the GTi is whatever we want it to be whether it be (hence the OPTION) H gate, flappy paddles, or fully automatic!

And that hasn't changed in all of LFS, in fact it didn't use to be H gate, back in the good old days all you had the option of is either sequintial or automatic

Looks suspiciously like a manual to me

I mean yes, it could be a computer controlled auto clutch since there are no pedals to make absolutely certain it is a manual, but it can't be a flappy paddles sequential or full auto.

:doh: that's right, eric did a full interior redesign (i'm still stuck in the golden ages)

As for being semi or full auto.. sure it can, just go into options and there it all is

It's there to make the game more playable.. for everyone, LFS is meant to get a broad scope of everyone and not worry, it has always been like that.

Quote from XCNuse :

As for being semi or full auto.. sure it can, just go into options and there it all is

Nay, it will always be a manual. Gearbox is the same no matter what your shifter setting is.
That's part of what I've been trying to tell you, all you change is the input, not the car, otherwise it'd be a setting for the car, with different properties for the auto and sequential gearboxes.

As far as I know, it's not possible to drive sequentials with the H-gate, shifter mode switches between full auto and sequential. It's not meant to give you one more setup option, it's just an accessibility option.

Anyway, since (I believe) we got this sorted now, I'll get back to my cheap seat at the back and keep out of this, unless explicitly spoken to.

Okay then now that that portion is finally solved, lets move on to the next subject, one that.. I'm pretty sure there is no way to solve.


Forcing cockpit has been brought up so I will introduce the problem using this example.
Despite some people having slow computers or what have you, everyone can deal with forced cockpit whether they like it or not, it isn't technically a 'limiting' factor.. (yes some people's FPS will suffer dramatically.. but they can still play the game in the cockpit view..)

Forcing a clutch system.

There is one thing you guys haven't thought of yet.
The business factor, obviously you want to make everyone happy and increase sales.

So what do you do when you put something like this in that factors out real people from playing the game?

I'm talking about handicap people, yes they are around on the game.

Sorry but this is a real problem, you may laugh it off and think it's a joke but this is serious stuff and has to be considered thus i'm bringing it up.

With forcing clutch, you may be limiting some people that don't have H shifters etc. But.. they can still buy them, they are on the market, doesn't mean they can afford them.. but they are there.

What do you do with a handicap person that can't do something? You're basically telling them they can't play because they are handicapped which.. honestly is just wrong.

There was one guy back in the days of RSC that was handicapped and was talking about how he used his paddles as his gas and brake since he couldn't use his legs.

What do you do in such a situation, seeing you can't give a programmed option a single person "excuse"

Quote from XCNuse :

Okay then now that that portion is finally solved, lets move on to the next subject, one that.. I'm pretty sure there is no way to solve.


Forcing cockpit has been brought up so I will introduce the problem using this example.
Despite some people having slow computers or what have you, everyone can deal with forced cockpit whether they like it or not, it isn't technically a 'limiting' factor.. (yes some people's FPS will suffer dramatically.. but they can still play the game in the cockpit view..)

Forcing a clutch system.

There is one thing you guys haven't thought of yet.
The business factor, obviously you want to make everyone happy and increase sales.

So what do you do when you put something like this in that factors out real people from playing the game?

I'm talking about handicap people, yes they are around on the game.

Sorry but this is a real problem, you may laugh it off and think it's a joke but this is serious stuff and has to be considered thus i'm bringing it up.

With forcing clutch, you may be limiting some people that don't have H shifters etc. But.. they can still buy them, they are on the market, doesn't mean they can afford them.. but they are there.

What do you do with a handicap person that can't do something? You're basically telling them they can't play because they are handicapped which.. honestly is just wrong.

There was one guy back in the days of RSC that was handicapped and was talking about how he used his paddles as his gas and brake since he couldn't use his legs.

What do you do in such a situation, seeing you can't give a programmed option a single person "excuse"

That's why it would be a serverside option.... Would not hurt LFS' business at all. I mean, if someone is too lazy to hit a damn button then that's their problem, I did it for two years. For the handicapped people, one solution is for the person to use the buttons on the wheel for shift-up/shift-down. And he could use one of the other buttons for the clutch. Or go on a server that allows auto-clutch. No offense, but you can't please everyone.

Because if anyone were to enable that option, and someone couldn't play, that is unfair, and you can't make an exception for one particular user.

i agree with both of you, but xcnuse has a good point, if there is a big league race, and it has this option, or something like it, some people who really want to race wont be able to...there has to be some happy medium

Quote from logitekg25 :

i agree with both of you, but xcnuse has a good point, if there is a big league race, and it has this option, or something like it, some people who really want to race wont be able to...there has to be some happy medium

That's when the Auto-clutch leagues and non auto-clutch leagues begin!

why

Quote from XCNuse :

I have a momo racing, but it is entirely uncomfortable to hold a button for a few seconds, and pressing a button 400 times back and forth on the track... will hurt.

tell that to my left foot... it cramps up just thinking of extended road racing.

oh, and iirc, insim can block autoclutch.

Until somebody buys me a G25 or similar (3 pedals) its a -1 from me. I really can't afford a €300 wheel at the moment (not that I wouldn't want to).

if I was so serious about racing, and was to spend sooo much money on equipment to get this "real" experience I wolud not go for fancy hardware + LFS but for a real second-hand racing car and some entry level racing series

and this is the difference between a sim and reality...