Quote from BenjiMC :

whats the point? your always gonna get moaning.

So switch each year. Its the XRR's turn. FZR = 50kg?

Quote from BenjiMC :

whats the point? your always gonna get moaning.

Not if you take the time to get it right the first time. If not just make it a one class league, because that's what it is going to turn into.\

Looking at the tracker from yesterday's race, I see that in GT1 the fastest FZR's fast lap was .02sec slower than the fastest XRR's.

Comments on that?

Probably to do with the drafting. XRRs had more than a 0.02 s/lap advantage.

Alright, thanks for that.

Just watching the broadcast now.

What about FZR +1% intake restriction and 50kg balast?

How about you force all FZR drivers to go round the track in reverse gear?

How about if people would stop suggesting random numbers.
Instead, shut up, or back your suggestion up with testing.

Quote from DaveWS :

How about you force all FZR drivers to go round the track in reverse gear?

Why not try to be searious, and actually try to get a fair balance?
And I agree with you Fuse. Test it before just coming with random numbers/suggestion.

Quote from Tomhah :

Why not try to be searious, and actually try to get a fair balance?
And I agree with you Fuse. Test it before just coming with random numbers/suggestion.

IGTC has proved that 20kg ballast for the FZR is a fair balance between it and the XRR. What extra testing needs to be done?

Quote from DaveWS :

IGTC has proved that 20kg ballast for the FZR is a fair balance between it and the XRR. What extra testing needs to be done?

a fair balance for MoFZR, yes... Its better, but not fair yet.

In my opinion, IGTC still isn't quite there. But it's a lot closer than MoE was last year.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

In my opinion, IGTC still isn't quite there. But it's a lot closer than MoE was last year.

I think that if you consider the pace of F1RST in the current season of IGTC, and compare the amount of preparation they have done for those races with spdo and 3id in the FZR, that the XRR has only been inferior at Aston North - though it will presumably be slower at South City Long, too.

It is also relevant to note that the performances of the top XRR teams have largely been affected by disconnections, driver errors and other dramas this season whereas some other teams haven't been affected as dramatically. Additionally, the lower fuel usage of the turbo cars results in a weight advantage - which best lap times tend to mask as they are generally set on low fuel - throughout the stint, while also leading to a [5+ seconds] shorter pitstop than is required for an hour-long stint in the FZR. And the icing on the cake is that in the 12h and 24h races the XRR teams will be expecting to make fewer pit-stops.

Take a look at last year's MoE results - when you guys drove the FZR - and tell me that you were closer to the pace than you've been in IGTC this season.

CoRe guys I just have to say this, you are making me to.

Looks to me like you want to make FZR just a little bit slower then what CoRe can do with XRR and you somehow hope that noone else will be that fast with XRR or will drive XRR at all, because everyone is so in love with FZR, so you win MoE.

As said up there, 20kg proved to be perfect in IGTC and Mercury won MoE season 3 with XRR, when also everyone tought XRR is slower and in fact stats from 24h race (which is as people say FZR track) proved very well that XRR had better pace.

Also, KY2 just can't be a test track. There are two tracks that can be test ones and those are AS5 and KY3.
I'm not talking about 24h and 12h race distance here. Make tests there as the races are 6h to have both cars equal, so then XRR might have advantage over full race distance there and FZR could be better on BL1, KY2 and SO4 and of course XRR better on WE1. So it's 3 FZR rounds 3 XRR rounds, not like looks your goal atm. Equal on FZR's tracks and mega advantage for XRR on XRR's tracks, just because it's XRR's time to shine.

Quote from N I K I :

CoRe guys I just have to say this, you are making me to.

Looks to me like you want to make FZR just a little bit slower then what CoRe can do with XRR and you somehow hope that noone else will be that fast with XRR or will drive XRR at all, because everyone is so in love with FZR, so you win MoE.

This is an incredibly stupid argument, an insulting one, and frankly typical of you, NIKI.

The goal is to get the two cars as equal as possible, both in pace and in grid representation (which generally follows from pace). No one can argue that the FZR hasn't been dominant in the last two seasons of endurance racing, and this is because it has the best pace. Simple as that.

Mercury's win in Season 3 was impressive, but note the next closest XRR in the standings (spdo included), and note that they jumped to the FZR the following season (and stuck with it), despite the physics being the same as the last half of their championship season.

Josh makes good points above. The IGTC restrictions are pretty close as they stand. However, as he pointed out, the XRR is basically nearly on or on pace at 5/7 tracks and substantially (or likely substantially) off-pace at two others (AS7/SO4). This leaves the FZR on equal or slightly better pace at 5/7 tracks and with a substantial advantage at 2/7 tracks. This is not balanced. Of course, AS7 is not [currently] on the MoE calendar and this discussion doesn't even begin to include the XRR's better fuel mileage/pitstop gains or its unique ability to get stuck in the sand. There are many factors at play, but on the whole I feel that the XRR is slightly undermatched to the FZR using the IGTC restrictions, but it's not a huge gap.

KY2 is not being used as a default test track. There was simply an event taking place there and we wanted to see how the chosen restrictions worked out. There will be other testing on a variety of tracks.

Please note that these are my personal opinions and do not reflect the consensus opinion of the MoE admins. I'm responding as a CoRe member to NIKI's personal attack. In short, I'd be pushing the same line on restrictions whether CoRe were participating in GT1 or not.

ok dwb. It maybe is attack, but it was my personal opinion at that moment which has slightly changed now.
One thing, I just wonder why did you forget how XRR has advantage on WE1

Quote from joshdifabio :

I think that if you consider the pace of F1RST in the current season of IGTC, and compare the amount of preparation they have done for those races with spdo and 3id in the FZR, that the XRR has only been inferior at Aston North - though it will presumably be slower at South City Long, too.

It is also relevant to note that the performances of the top XRR teams have largely been affected by disconnections, driver errors and other dramas this season whereas some other teams haven't been affected as dramatically. Additionally, the lower fuel usage of the turbo cars results in a weight advantage - which best lap times tend to mask as they are generally set on low fuel - throughout the stint, while also leading to a [5+ seconds] shorter pitstop than is required for an hour-long stint in the FZR. And the icing on the cake is that in the 12h and 24h races the XRR teams will be expecting to make fewer pit-stops.

Take a look at last year's MoE results - when you guys drove the FZR - and tell me that you were closer to the pace than you've been in IGTC this season.

Looking at results the cars do look quite similar, but looking at times over a stint they still look far off. XRR seems "competitive" over the first 30 minutes (might still be able to see top FZRs), but after that the FZRs can run XRR WR pace in which we get left in the dust. I'm not saying FZRs shouldn't be faster later in the stint, because they should, but if they are they shouldn't be as fast beginning of stint. It would all equal over a stint and pitstops.

30 min = 15 laps on most tracks = 10-15 second difference - 5second pitstop adv for XRR = 5-10 second FZR advantage overall in one stint.

Quote from N I K I :

ok dwb. It maybe is attack, but it was my personal opinion at that moment which has slightly changed now.
One thing, I just wonder why did you forget how XRR has advantage on WE1

It might look like CoRe is trying to sway things, but honestly we are not. Only person I have talked to within CoRe about restrictions is Ben, in which he said "we are working on it". Only reason I care so much about restrictions is that it tells me whether I should stick in LFS or not. Nothing has happened within LFS, and a couple leagues are the only thing holding me back of pushing full into iRacing (something I really don't want).

So sure, I can look to be coming off into wanting XRR advantage or something, but I honestly don't want it to have one at all. As long as they are even I know I lost fairly, and that's what I want.

So will you please try to help the admins?

Quote from N I K I :

One thing, I just wonder why did you forget how XRR has advantage on WE1

WE1 is certainly the XRR's best track, but not by nearly as big of an advantage as some of the other tracks (SO4, for instance) favor the FZR.

However, for example in IGTC the XRR could do the SO4 race on one less pit stop at least than the FZR thanks to it's fuel consumption. So thats a nice big 1 minute advantage to add to your calculations which the XRR will likely be able to reproduce in every MOE race.

Will be interesting to see if that happens or not, this coming weekend.

But this question is irking me... if the XRR is perfectly balanced with the FZR with the current IGTC season restrictions, why are there just 4 XRRs to the 27 FZRs? If it's just been due to fear of early adoption, do you really think we'd see an evenly split grid in MoE 2009-2010 using the same restrictions?

People dont wanna change to something they aren't used to. I know i can't pedal the XRR anywhere near what other people can do. So i dont even bother with it.

Quote from BenjiMC :

However, for example in IGTC the XRR could do the SO4 race on one less pit stop at least than the FZR thanks to it's fuel consumption. So thats a nice big 1 minute advantage to add to your calculations which the XRR will likely be able to reproduce in every MOE race.

LFSLA did it too in FZR: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=912150#post912150

I see what you are getting at though, but you are just slowing it down during its stints with the added fuel, so its not as great of an advantage as one would think. Plus the tires in XRR since the CoG update melt, so its not possible anymore.

Edit: But why would people change cars if the cars are even? They would go for personal preference.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

if the XRR is perfectly balanced with the FZR with the current IGTC season restrictions, why are there just 4 XRRs to the 27 FZRs?

Same as benji was on about, you don't wanna switch to something you feel less at home with same reason core isn't changing to fzr i guess?

Quote from CrAZySkyPimp :

Same as benji was on about, you don't wanna switch to something you feel less at home with same reason core isn't changing to fzr i guess?

Except we did in MoE last season, and probably would have for this IGTC season if we'd known how the balancing was going to shake out.

The XRR wont get -1 pitstop. the FZR's can make one less too, but I really dont know if the XRR can do it either. As the tires is shit :P

Also, there shouldnt be any dramaticly changes in my opinion. 2% and 20 kg is just way too much in my opinion (without testing it:confused, but I think some more kg's would be fair.