Quote from Deutschland2007 :

Read Scawen´s post. He wrote that the current tyre model has too much grip so obviously the new one has less grip, and less grip means slower laptimes. If you come to any diffrent conclusions I´d be surprised.

That might not be the case. Scawen does say

Quote from Scawen :

One of the reasons for this was that the LFS tyres had too much grip and this was causing the inside wheels to lose too much load while cornering. But simply reducing the grip would not have been a good approach... the result would have been just the same old LFS but at lower speeds.

This may mean there will be more load on the inside tires that will help in the corners.

Quote from Scawen :

But simply reducing the grip would not have been a good approach...the result would have been just the same old LFS but at lower speeds.

So it could make times faster or slower, but can't be known untill we see how it will really react.

Quote from Gills4life :

Ironic that, being fed up of "just news", when people previously were mainly complaining about the lack of a news update on how the development was progressing.

I do feel sorry for the devs. They try to feed us and then someone has to come along and bite their hand off. No doubt I will shortly be called a fanboy for sticking up for the devs here.

Nope your not a fan boy, its called voicing your opinion

Some people want news, others just want the patch as news winds them up and gets them all impatient. The devs will never win but at the same time delaying stuff will always upset people, myself included. Its just a waiting game though, im quite happy playing other stuff at the moment

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

I'd imagine slower as they are decreasing the levels of grip.

Hmm, i wouldn't be so sure tbh.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

Hmm, i wouldn't be so sure tbh.

Do you know any other possibilites for unloading the outside tyres? And the tyres will have atleast less grip off the line so people actually try and make a good start instead of just flooringit.

It's also likely to effect how tyres wear and how they heat and cool in longer races... as tyre loads will be different. Would be interesting to see if the heat model has got a rework as well.

Quote from percy 2k7 :

Hmm, i wouldn't be so sure tbh.

I tend to agree trail braking could possibly be easier as well as getting power down (diff wise). Also there might be less problem with clutch pack diffs and low preload under brakes and an while individual tyre may have less grip the overall grip might be similar.

One thing is for sure though and that is that the current setups we all run will suck with the new physics

Quote from Deutschland2007 :

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

So will these new tyre physics be slower or faster?

Read Scawen´s post. He wrote that the current tyre model has too much grip so obviously the new one has less grip, and less grip means slower laptimes. If you come to any diffrent conclusions I´d be surprised.

I think that lowering the grip levels will help transfer some of the load from the outer tyres to the inner ones while cornering. Imagine a vehicle with excessive grip, it can even cause it to rollover while cornering if the center of gravity of that vehicle is high enough - one reason for this is the too much load and grip on the outer tyres and the vehicle being able to lean too much with that kind of grip. With a lower grip level, the vehicle will not be able to lean that much compared to a higher grip level, which will result in some reduced load on the outers and increased load on the inners while cornering; giving the vehicle a more balanced weight distribution with better handling and giving us the chance to have faster lap times on a track as a result.

Just imagine a car driving on a frozen lake, it will be probably impossible to roll it over. And all of the tyres will be probably applying the same pressure to the surface even while cornering since none of them will actually be able to hold the surface - in this case the ice - well and make the car lean.

Quote from Scawen :

While we were working on the Scirocco in December, we found that we could not make the LFS model handle as well as the real car.

Quote from Scawen :

The new LFS tyre model has a good mathematical basis for the way forces are produced from the physical state of the tyre, resulting in improved handling and feel with greater realism.

What I understand from Scawen's sentences are with the new tyre physics, the LFS model will have a better handling than before. And in my opinion, a car with a better handling will have faster lap times from a car with worse handling.

So in conclusion I interpret Scawen's words as with the new tyre physics, we will be able to make faster lap times if I'm not getting something totally wrong.

But anyway, we can't be completely sure untill the new physics are published.

Edit: I know that Scawen hasn't said anything related to reducing the grip levels in his original post nor I claim that it will be reduced. I was just discussing the physics and its effects for a lower grip level and was sharing my opinion on Scawen's words about handling.

Duno dude, im not engineer or a dev!

From what scawen said in his posts, these tyre physics will make it handle better i imagine he means less understeer, im not sure, but i think in rl on a left corner all the weight and traction is from the outside of the left tyres, and the tyres on the right, all the grip is on the inside, now if you imagine the left tyres with too much grip on the inside, doesn't sound better to me, it sounds unbalanced.

Then again i know nothing so i await scipy to correct me, i just don't think its as clear cut as you guys think, thats my rubbish interpretation anyway

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

Duno dude, im not engineer or a dev!

From what scawen said in his posts, these tyre physics will make it handle better i imagine he means less understeer, im not sure, but i think in rl on a left corner all the weight and traction is from the outside of the left tyres, and the tyres on the right, all the grip is on the inside, now if you imagine the left tyres with too much grip on the inside, doesn't sound better to me, it sounds unbalanced.

Then again i know nothing so i await scipy to correct me, i just don't think its as clear cut as you guys think, thats my rubbish interpretation anyway

Less understeer would be good news for XRR and FXR. And FXO and XFG and all cars to be honest.

I think cars that will benefit the most will be FZR, after patch Z it got quite understeery alot more than the XRR, the XRR just has too much torque and skinny rear tyres. Feels like its on rails to me until you push over the limit. Only other cars i can think of are the FXO and maybe some of the FWDGTR's, will be interesting to see what they are like after, but all the cars should really benefit.

RAC, MRT ?

Quote from emreerokyar :

What I understand from Scawen's sentences are with the new tyre physics, the LFS model will have a better handling than before. And in my opinion, a car with a better handling will have faster lap times from a car with worse handling.

So in conclusion I interpret those as with the new tyre physics, we will be able to make faster lap times. Am I getting something totally wrong?

But less ultimate grip will cost more time than tiny gains in better handling.

Quote from Scawen :

But simply reducing the grip would not have been a good approach... the result would have been just the same old LFS but at lower speeds.

There is nothing about reducing grip in Scawen's original post.

+1

Quote from JJ72 :

But less ultimate grip will cost more time than tiny gains in better handling.

Well I am not talking about an immense decrease on the grip level. Just a small amount of decrease might give us better weight distribution and a faster lap time in my opinion.

Well nevermind, I am not a physics guru nor a car handling specialist and since I can't prove this with calculations or with references to real life experiences, I don't want to argue over this. In my opinion it will be totally pointless trying to prove this with just talking, ideas, claims and intangible values.

And please don't get me wrong since I don't claim that you are wrong, you might even be completely correct though. And I've never heard of a racing team trying to reduce grip for a faster lap time. Anyway.

Is it safe to assume that the FFB behavior will change too?

Quote from emreerokyar :

I don't want to argue over this. In my opinion it will be totally pointless trying to prove this with just talking, ideas, claims and intangible values.

First off I'm not arguing just making a point.

This is my assumption based off of the original post by Scawen.

It's not just amount of grip that is the issue, it is the amount of grip per amount of load on the tire contact patch.

Quote from legoflamb :

First off I'm not arguing just making a point.

This is my assumption based off of the original post by Scawen.

It's not just amount of grip that is the issue, it is the amount of grip per amount of load on the tire contact patch.

Right, which is why just lowering overall grip levels for the tire wouldn't be much of a "fix" and probably why (just guessing here) Scawen decided on the rework for the model.

It is possible that the overall grip level for a particular car will remain exactly the same, or even go up a tad, or drop a tad. The distribution of the grip will most likely be spread more even between the inside and outside tires. Imagine if you will that if you even out, so to speak, the amount of grip gained by downward force. Instead of a steep curve, you have a more shallow curve. This would imply that you would have more grip at lower load levels than you have now, and less grip at higher load levels than what you have now. And, because of the way suspensions work, things should even out a bit.

Anyway, I had mentioned this on like the third or fourth page, and it's just my opinion.

(As a side note, I have tried greatly increasing the amount of anti-roll bar that I am using on some of my more "normal" setups. It seems to show improved performance in the cars I have tried. It makes for interesting results.)

Quote from emreerokyar :

I think that lowering the grip levels will help transfer some of the load from the outer tyres to the inner ones while cornering. Imagine a vehicle with excessive grip, it can even cause it to rollover while cornering if the center of gravity of that vehicle is high enough - one reason for this is the too much load and grip on the outer tyres and the vehicle being able to lean too much with that kind of grip. With a lower grip level, the vehicle will not be able to lean that much compared to a higher grip level, which will result in some reduced load on the outers and increased load on the inners while cornering; giving the vehicle a more balanced weight distribution with better handling and giving us the chance to have faster lap times on a track as a result.

I don't really understand that. If the body is leaning less then the G forces are less. If the G forces are less then the MPH is less for the same corner or radius. If the MPH is less the average MPH goes down, so does lap time.

Exacly, probably after new tire physics, lots of wrs will go down. Starting from still might be better also, especially in RWD, as there will be less grip gain through weight transfer.

Ye hotlaps with standing starts would be fun, more like on top gear.

Quote from G!NhO :

Ye hotlaps with standing starts would be fun, more like on top gear.

Default win for guys with manual clutch

Ye well that makes everything more exciting.

Quote from MadCat360 :

I don't really understand that. If the body is leaning less then the G forces are less. If the G forces are less then the MPH is less for the same corner or radius. If the MPH is less the average MPH goes down, so does lap time.

No, you're forgetting tyre load sensitivity: the more you load a tyre, the less (relative) traction it will have - thus it's best to load inside and outside tyres evenly...

I'd imagine most WR will stay at about the same level and if they go down, it'll be only slightly...

What will change radically are how people will set their diffs - locked diffs should be gone with the new patch...

Quote from legoflamb :

First off I'm not arguing just making a point.

This is my assumption based off of the original post by Scawen.

It's not just amount of grip that is the issue, it is the amount of grip per amount of load on the tire contact patch.

Actually I was talking to JJ72 since I was replying to his post in case of him replying to me and probably causing a disagreement. Discussing and arguing over this issue with either him or someone else is completely pointless for me since I don't have enough time nor knowledge to resolve this issue and come to a point where I could really say it's clear for me now. I just don't like discussions going on every forum, they are pointless and I usually consider them unneccessary.

Just like the ABS discussions going on the patch test forum. You read and read and read and come back after a week and see all the people are still arguing on the same topic just like they just started an hour ago! I just can't believe how people can keep talking for so many days to agree on a single topic! They don't read the previous posts and every single member always has an idea on the topic! Nobody says I don't have an idea, everyone just claims something. It's a pain in the *** to read them for me but there it is. They already have nearly 300 posts in a thread related to ABS.

And guess what, in the end they have nothing but lots of messages trying to state an opinion. Nobody says that "what x says is completely correct" or "we all agree on x's post". I just stops somewhere and at the end, everyone still has the same opinion as they just started. Nothing has changed, everyone is still standing up for their first idea but a lot of time was lost. They simply just "discuss" and don't resolve. It's ironic though since we call this places discussion groups.

So I won't continue to talk about this tyre physics anymore so I can prevent a possible infinite discussion which will never finish.

And I admit that I don't know any single stuff about cars and physics and tyres and handling and simulations and anything that you might think of I claim to know. And you are completely right and I am sorry for the pollution I've created by sharing my stupid ideas and my posts in this topic.

Quote from mclarenmatt :

He's probably getting impatient of the actual patch not arriving. Eg he's getting fed up with just news

I'm not getting impatient, really. I just cant understand why the fk it takes so long. First, okay. He moved his house. Lets say that it took 2 month's to move in a new house. No internet 1-2 month('s).

Okay, next

12 month's -(minus) 3-4 month's is 9 or 8. Oh come on. You can guys wait longer for the patch, because scawen is gonna have another kid ofcourse. In the meanwhile I recommend you guys playing HL2 or something, model the devs ingame and kill them.

But wait! There is more!
If you wait longer for lfs, You can wait another year for the new patch!
Not that alone, You also get scirocco after another Year! Great DEAL!