It's good to know that anyone who just happens not to be a raging authoritarian is an anarchist, love the logic hen, but of course it's not that black and white. And if given the choice I'd hope most people would take the latter as a society rather than the former...
It's good to know that anyone who just happens not to be a raging authoritarian is an anarchist, love the logic hen, but of course it's not that black and white. And if given the choice I'd hope most people would take the latter as a society rather than the former...
That was his logic, i'm with you, but apparently we can't have it both ways because there is no grey...
I think he's best ignored in this particular discussion 
cuba does not have a good healthcare system. that is an outright lie only to be beleived by people who base their beliefs of every word of Michael Moore.
Socialized healthcare will never work in America. There would be too many people benefiting and not enough people paying. I'm not even worried about it being implemented here. It has a very low chance of becoming law and even if it does will be gone by the time we have another republican president if (when) the system doesn't work.
Canada isn't exactly a utopia in terms of healthcare either but the only reason theirs kind of works is because they have no immigration problem. Even so they often have to wait years (that they don't have) to get important procedures done such as removing brain tumors.
I'm happy with healthcare the way it is now as long as Americans don't have to pay the outrageous taxes that welfare states do.
Socialized healthcare will never work in America. There would be too many people benefiting and not enough people paying. I'm not even worried about it being implemented here. It has a very low chance of becoming law and even if it does will be gone by the time we have another republican president if (when) the system doesn't work.
Canada isn't exactly a utopia in terms of healthcare either but the only reason theirs kind of works is because they have no immigration problem. Even so they often have to wait years (that they don't have) to get important procedures done such as removing brain tumors.
I'm happy with healthcare the way it is now as long as Americans don't have to pay the outrageous taxes that welfare states do.
The whole point is that everyone pays and everyone benefits. How can you even start to argue for or against a system when you don't even know how it works?
Of course there are immigrants who officially dont exist and dont pay for their healthcare, but that is a tiny fraction compared to the 60 odd milion people who pay and are covered by the NHS.
I don't know where you got that idea from, probrably some kind of conservative propaganda.
Introducing nationalisted healthcare is not the problem in the USA, its ignorance and far right wing scum, Obama needs to destroy those first before he can really make change.
And "you lie!" is the best argument any opposers can come up with.
...
He is getting at, if I have no job and just sit on my ass collecting his tax dollars on welfare, then I also don't pay for health care.
As it is, I have a pretty shitty paying job. I pay for my own health care through my employment. My employer pays 80% and I pay 20%. Since I pay $250 per month, that means my employer pays about $1000 with the total being $1250 per month. Of that $1000 my employer pays, I very much doubt they are going to give me a huge raise that they save in paying my health care. So, my employer saves a ton of money, but how much am I going to pay in increased taxes to cover it and everyone elses who sits around on their lazy rears?
If my employer want's to give me a 50% raise for the benefits they no longer have to pay to me, then I'm all for it. Somehow I very much doubt that is going to happen.
There are 12 million illegal immigrants in America at last count and rising at about 3000 a month. Thats not a very small fraction of 60 million. Not everyone benefits from socialized healthcare, either. I would rather pay lower taxes and be able to afford healthcare the way it is than pay for everyone elses. Perhaps instead of spending 2 trillion dollars on nothing, Obama should have put most of that money towards the systems we already have to pay for healthcare such as medicare/aid.
Conservative propaganda. God forbid someone have a dissenting opinion.
60 million = UK population, not the US tax payers whatever.
Healthcare is a basic right from birth, its not something you should have to earn.
I'm all for hard working people having more money to spend on a big house and a fancy car, after all, they earned it. But every man woman and child should have guarenteed healthcare regardless of wether they are working or not.
Any country that cannot supply its whole population with this basic right is backward IMO and should be ashamed. Its seems that Obama recognises this, unfortunately a lot of his people don't.
Anyway, in the meantime I'll carry on feeling smug knowing that I live in a country thats capable of caring for its people and meeting their basic needs.
I'm all for hard working people having more money to spend on a big house and a fancy car, after all, they earned it. But every man woman and child should have guarenteed healthcare regardless of wether they are working or not.
Any country that cannot supply its whole population with this basic right is backward IMO and should be ashamed. Its seems that Obama recognises this, unfortunately a lot of his people don't.
Anyway, in the meantime I'll carry on feeling smug knowing that I live in a country thats capable of caring for its people and meeting their basic needs.
Firstly on Cuba: the standard of it's healthcare is NOT ideal, it is a piss pot country with a poor infrastructure and many problems, it is a low technology country that hasn't moved all that much since American tourism ended.
Having said that it's healthcare IS better than Americas. This is based upon it's performance against the World Health Organisations rankings of healthcare. America is not far behind Cuba however.
Those are the facts not the opinions.
Regarding immigration, the last time I looked at the figures (earlier this year or late last year I researched it in relation to another debate here) America had twice as many legal and twice as many illegal immigrants as the UK.
Before you wave the victory banner however, consider that America has five times the UKs population, meaning it has 5 times the number of tax payers, to cover only twice as many immigrants.
Saying "They take all our jobs, don't contribute to the system, steal our women and so we can't look after our sick" just isn't an acceptable excuse.
You have a responsibility to your neighbours. Ignoring it does not make you wealthier. It simply weakens your nation.
Having said that it's healthcare IS better than Americas. This is based upon it's performance against the World Health Organisations rankings of healthcare. America is not far behind Cuba however.
Those are the facts not the opinions.
Regarding immigration, the last time I looked at the figures (earlier this year or late last year I researched it in relation to another debate here) America had twice as many legal and twice as many illegal immigrants as the UK.
Before you wave the victory banner however, consider that America has five times the UKs population, meaning it has 5 times the number of tax payers, to cover only twice as many immigrants.
Saying "They take all our jobs, don't contribute to the system, steal our women and so we can't look after our sick" just isn't an acceptable excuse.
You have a responsibility to your neighbours. Ignoring it does not make you wealthier. It simply weakens your nation.
It weakens our nation to have local hospitals (especially in the southwest) close down because they can't handle the amount of illegal immigrants that use the emergency room. They are causing healthcare to be inaccessable for the legal citizens in the areas those hospitals cover. Plus, hospitals have to charge more for services to make up for that lost money, causing insurance companies to charge higher deductables, again limiting the amount of healthcare that legal citizens can afford.
The healthcare system in the USA is barbaric, hospitals should not turn a profit, for a deeply religious country it amazes me how people accept profiting off the back of peoples sickness and pain. Obama deserves all the awards in the world just for giving the USA some credibility, because it's become a joke of a country that sold out on its values the moment they were challenged. America is the land of the greedy, not the land of the free. I would probably be labeled an evil communist there for suggesting that it's okay to pay a few extra dollars worth of tax to potentially help millions of people.
It doesn't sound communist it just sounds naïve. Everyone wishes they could have everything they need for free but the reality is someone needs to get paid.
Healthcare costs money and that money needs to come from somewhere. Doctors make a profit, too, are you suggesting that doctors perform all their procedures for free after they paid $200K to get through medical school?
The reason healthcare costs so much in America has less to do with greed than it has to do with economics. If someone is getting something for free, then someone else is paying for them as well as themselves, driving up costs. If less people (12 million or so) did not receive free healthcare, I imagine healthcare would cost a lot less, making it more available to more American citizens, the people who are supposed to be getting it in the first place.
While your post is certainly passionate, its not realistic.
Healthcare costs money and that money needs to come from somewhere. Doctors make a profit, too, are you suggesting that doctors perform all their procedures for free after they paid $200K to get through medical school?
The reason healthcare costs so much in America has less to do with greed than it has to do with economics. If someone is getting something for free, then someone else is paying for them as well as themselves, driving up costs. If less people (12 million or so) did not receive free healthcare, I imagine healthcare would cost a lot less, making it more available to more American citizens, the people who are supposed to be getting it in the first place.
While your post is certainly passionate, its not realistic.
Healthcare and basic education should be free to everyone, no matter where they are born or what bits of paper they happen to own. Also, insurance companies should never be given control over anything as important as healthcare, any idiot should know that, it's like putting a paedophile in charge of a playschool.
Hmm some would say government/civil servants shouldn't be in control either
ATC you need to learn at some point that nothing is or ever will be free. Someone is going to have to pay, and my argument is that it should not be me or my fellow citizens. If it doesn't matter to you where people are from, perhaps the UK could lighten our load and provide free health care for USA's illegal immigrants. I won't pay for them, but apparently you are more than willing to.
I totally agree with you. He says how nice and wonderful the world will become, but what has changed?
Our country is going down under.
It is quite sad, especially when other leaders wanted to help and Obama is doing nothing. I'm still mad at him for doing the cash for clunkers since some idiotic people here junked treasures.Erm...what? He's doing nothing? Oh, but he instituted Cash for Clunkers and is trying to change healthcare, which is a problem apparently. Don't just slander a person with no facts or sense. You invalidate any good points you may have had by not having a coherent argument and a logical though pattern. It's not just you though, I hear it from a lot of people, the majority of whom seem to think FOX News is an unbiased news source. IMO the FOX News mentality of slander before facts and insults before debate, is what is wrong with America right now.
Whether what he is doing is good or not is a completely different subject that is worthy of debate. We should never stop trying to question authority and help make the most logical decisions for our country. I'm just opposed to people who slander, instead of sticking to the facts.
And so far, at least to me, the facts seem to point to our health care system needing to be changed. However, I still have a few slight issues with Obama's plan that need to be addressed before I can give it 100% of my support. Right now, I'm in favor because no one else has come up with a better alternative.
EDIT: we might as well change the name of this thread to something like "Obama wins Nobel P...OH LOOK! HEALTH CARE!"
Our hospitals can cope (just about) with a higher ratio of illegal immigrants to legal citizens, why can't they in the USA, the self-styled upstanding policeman of the world?
You don't seem to understand that with a national healthcare service, everyone gets the same coverage should they need it, nobody is paying for somebody else and not getting anything back and only non tax payers (children basically) get healthcare for free (legally anyway), you're paying for your own healthcare in an indirect way, everybody gains from the system including yourself! Clearly thats too complicated for a lot of Americans to understand.
This is why people pick on Americans and accuse them of being thick, because of the backward views of people too frightened to spend money on anything but their own miserable arses. This is why democracy is bad, because these kind of people are represented in government.
Anyway, its your loss, not mine, I live in the developed world.
I don't have facts or figures to hand, but I do have a friend who is in training to be a Doctor. She lives in New York (a legal immigrant having emmigrated at 6), and she would dearly love to train over here instead because our doctors earn significantly more than their US counterparts, but she would need to sit extra qualifications which would set her back a year or two.
So a system based entirely upon the generation of profit and not the best interests of the patients (un-needed operations on the wealthy, and a lack of basic healthcare for the poor) isn't what is making your healthcare so expensive?
Whilst you make a valid point that if something is free then somebody else is paying twice, you fail to appreciate the logistics of what medicine would cost when everyone pays.
When you visit my country, you are covered. I pay for you. I'm proud of that. I would not watch you die infront of me.
I was quite badly ill some time back and I had a couple of major operations to save my life. During that time I became friends with other people in the same position as me. Only 1 of the Americans is still here.
The American healthcare system is barbaric, it's a 3rd world fronteir system. You'd do well to look at the countries with better healthcare than yours (including mine, which has a far greater number of both legal and illegal immigrants by ratio of population by a factor of 250%) and copy what is good about it.
Get with the developed world, America...
The real issue people talk about isn't really the taxes or the economical part of it. The real issue is that people don't trust the government in today's "Power to me" over "Power to the people" mentality of the government to run the health care system.
If the people in government was interested in my well being, then that is fine. Unfortunately, the people in government is more interested in their own power and money than the reason they should be in the government.
If the people in government was interested in my well being, then that is fine. Unfortunately, the people in government is more interested in their own power and money than the reason they should be in the government.
Now this is a very good point, and one that I have also thought long and hard about, but I came to a realisation i'd like to hear your thoughts on.
Yes the government cannot be trusted, it is a self interested organisation.
The alternative however isn't people control, it's corporate control. The alternative to government run healthcare is corporate run healthcare.
Corporations cannot be trusted, they are self interested organisations.
Given the option of government control versus corporate control, I would chose the government - living as I do (and as America does) in a democracy, it is the lesser of the two evils. At least the government answers to the people.
You guys are talking like the only alternative to health insurance companies deciding who gets treated is someone in congress or in government deciding instead.
50 million WORKING Americans have inadequate or NO access to health care. I don't give a damn what politics you believe in, if you think that THAT is acceptable - in a modern society, supposedly leading the world in all good things - then I have news for you; you have absolutely NO concept of "a caring society", and you're living in a backward-facing third-world country. The rest of us (outside of certain middle-eastern, African and the poorest of South American countries) have built better "societies" than that, and a "society" that allows that is no "society" at all! And it's pants. Seriously.
We don't trust our British government as far as we could throw a fit. It has NOTHING to do with whether we have faith in our healthcare system. THAT is charged with saving lives where it can, treating illnesses, fixing bones and the rest, rich or poor. A life has the value of exactly one life.
And there is not, and never WAS, any suggestion that illegal immigrants would EVER receive cover in the US. There is no provision for illegals to receive health care in the US, in ANY of the proposed healthcare reforms. Period. But in the UK we DO treat illegal immigrant Americans. I know because I've seen it. And ya know what? Nobody gave a damn! Oh poor tax payers, accidentally saving an occasional "undeserving life" out of the tens of millions of people treated annually. Poor us!
Bottom line is that there is a mean streak that runs through the US, which is peculiar to the US. I've never visited or lived in a society quite as mealy-mouthed and unkind as the US, and I wouldn't ever choose to again.
Geez, get a grip and learn to give a damn about your fellow human being. Caring Christian society? You MUST be joking!
50 million WORKING Americans have inadequate or NO access to health care. I don't give a damn what politics you believe in, if you think that THAT is acceptable - in a modern society, supposedly leading the world in all good things - then I have news for you; you have absolutely NO concept of "a caring society", and you're living in a backward-facing third-world country. The rest of us (outside of certain middle-eastern, African and the poorest of South American countries) have built better "societies" than that, and a "society" that allows that is no "society" at all! And it's pants. Seriously.
We don't trust our British government as far as we could throw a fit. It has NOTHING to do with whether we have faith in our healthcare system. THAT is charged with saving lives where it can, treating illnesses, fixing bones and the rest, rich or poor. A life has the value of exactly one life.
And there is not, and never WAS, any suggestion that illegal immigrants would EVER receive cover in the US. There is no provision for illegals to receive health care in the US, in ANY of the proposed healthcare reforms. Period. But in the UK we DO treat illegal immigrant Americans. I know because I've seen it. And ya know what? Nobody gave a damn! Oh poor tax payers, accidentally saving an occasional "undeserving life" out of the tens of millions of people treated annually. Poor us!
Bottom line is that there is a mean streak that runs through the US, which is peculiar to the US. I've never visited or lived in a society quite as mealy-mouthed and unkind as the US, and I wouldn't ever choose to again.
Geez, get a grip and learn to give a damn about your fellow human being. Caring Christian society? You MUST be joking!
So glad flymike is back. 
It's no wonder less than 20% of Americans surveyed today will admit to being Republican.
On the topic of Obama, the award is deserved. For the last 3 years that I know of, he's been continually campaigning for world peace and he's achieved the presidency on that ticket too.
Obama's Nobel Peace Prize is a vote of confidence, but given the difference he's made so far (it's dramatic, but yanks probably can't see it yet) and his clear determination to improve America's standing internationally as well as positively influencing other international relations through diplomacy (makes a nice change from warmongering and "peacemaking"), this award is affirmation to Obama that WE (the world) recognise his intentions and appreciate his efforts. It's support and it's encouragement.
And to those Republicans that oppose Obama's prize; tough! It's NOT your decision. Suck it up.
On the topic of Obama, the award is deserved. For the last 3 years that I know of, he's been continually campaigning for world peace and he's achieved the presidency on that ticket too.
Obama's Nobel Peace Prize is a vote of confidence, but given the difference he's made so far (it's dramatic, but yanks probably can't see it yet) and his clear determination to improve America's standing internationally as well as positively influencing other international relations through diplomacy (makes a nice change from warmongering and "peacemaking"), this award is affirmation to Obama that WE (the world) recognise his intentions and appreciate his efforts. It's support and it's encouragement.
And to those Republicans that oppose Obama's prize; tough! It's NOT your decision. Suck it up.
The definition of irony.
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