Poll : Should the car classes be more even?
Yes, I want a mixed field of cars.
175
No, I want all cars to be different for bigger challenge
60
Undecided.
23
my point?
"I think the game is quite balanced, just needs a few little tweaks."
no, its NOT quite balanced, and dont need "few little tweaks", needs a LOT of TWEAKS
and again, sure, if u race against poor drivers u can win, but like i said, its IMPOSSIBLE to win against proper drivers on a champ
we dont need this PROBLEM that NEVER get corrected by the devs, discussed several times and they never say nothing and etc, and yes, im mad with this idiot situation
really, im sorry if was too agressive with u
"I think the game is quite balanced, just needs a few little tweaks."
no, its NOT quite balanced, and dont need "few little tweaks", needs a LOT of TWEAKS
and again, sure, if u race against poor drivers u can win, but like i said, its IMPOSSIBLE to win against proper drivers on a champ
we dont need this PROBLEM that NEVER get corrected by the devs, discussed several times and they never say nothing and etc, and yes, im mad with this idiot situation
really, im sorry if was too agressive with u
err did you miss the balancing of GTi vs GT or what?
no, but this is not enough. And I was talking about the TBO class
the TBO was fair sometime? And the GTR class?
im really pissed out with guys that say: "ahh, there is no problem, class fairly even"
oh really? they need to race with RB4 and FXR forever against FXO and FZR with this balancing
Don't worry mate, we all want LFS to be as perfect and polished as it can be. I'm sure the devs will listen to the community and make the changes needed by the time S2 hits final release.
Losing some power of the FZR, making FXO heavier (or less powerful..) with less grippy tires, making something to compete with the lonely wolf LX4 (it's way too fast for the tbo class) and giving a tiny bit more power for the RB4.. I think those little changes would change the balance significantly to the better direction.
Losing some power of the FZR, making FXO heavier (or less powerful..) with less grippy tires, making something to compete with the lonely wolf LX4 (it's way too fast for the tbo class) and giving a tiny bit more power for the RB4.. I think those little changes would change the balance significantly to the better direction.
Oh cmon! We need more even car classes!
The Brazilian league now is going to start a new championship of the GTR class, and I'm worried about it, because each car has 1 second of difference at Kyoto National in the WR (the first event), and you will see that the first placed cars will be FZR, then XRR and FXR...
With more even cars the racers would race together and have all the same chances of winning, that would be much more exciting!
The Brazilian league now is going to start a new championship of the GTR class, and I'm worried about it, because each car has 1 second of difference at Kyoto National in the WR (the first event), and you will see that the first placed cars will be FZR, then XRR and FXR...
With more even cars the racers would race together and have all the same chances of winning, that would be much more exciting!
Let's keep the discussion civil, mmmkay? 
It's easy for people who are now in "winning camp" to have some... err... reservations about the subject. They are having great and fun races, no doubt about it, but for the rest of us it's sometimes really-really-really demoralizing to race against a vastly superior car. One might have skill to compete with them person to person, but it's pretty much useless unless the opponent fumbles.
Of course we could choose the same car they're using, but what's the point of mixed classes then?
And finally there's mr. Scawen, who is probably fed up with this subject and has scribbled a note to fix imbalances... but only after the physics are finished so he doesn't have to adjust them twice.
It's easy for people who are now in "winning camp" to have some... err... reservations about the subject. They are having great and fun races, no doubt about it, but for the rest of us it's sometimes really-really-really demoralizing to race against a vastly superior car. One might have skill to compete with them person to person, but it's pretty much useless unless the opponent fumbles.
Of course we could choose the same car they're using, but what's the point of mixed classes then?
And finally there's mr. Scawen, who is probably fed up with this subject and has scribbled a note to fix imbalances... but only after the physics are finished so he doesn't have to adjust them twice.
I'm not going to tell technical details, I'll just tell a short resume of one of my experiences with these cars...
Some days ago I was racing with Carlos on Aston National, the server was using the GTR category.
Carlos was on the lead almost all the races, using the FZR... and going real hard with it, lap time close to WR.
So, I picked up the FXR and entered the next race, passed all the drivers, and went to second place with Carlos in first place, as you may already know, I never made it, Carlos was doing laps almost 2 (yes... TWO!) seconds below my time.
On another race, we changed cars. He got the FXR and I picked up the FZR and wow, guess what? I won by some considerable distance.
2 Seconds per lap may looks like nothing for one lap, but imagine a race with 20 or 30 laps... It will become impossible to beat the FZR's...
What can we think of this? On the GTR class, if you don't use the "best car", you don't stand a chance.
I know that the cars would never be totally evened, the cars need to have some pros and cons, but they could race in a way that we could at least race together.
PS: sorry the terrible english
Some days ago I was racing with Carlos on Aston National, the server was using the GTR category.
Carlos was on the lead almost all the races, using the FZR... and going real hard with it, lap time close to WR.
So, I picked up the FXR and entered the next race, passed all the drivers, and went to second place with Carlos in first place, as you may already know, I never made it, Carlos was doing laps almost 2 (yes... TWO!) seconds below my time.
On another race, we changed cars. He got the FXR and I picked up the FZR and wow, guess what? I won by some considerable distance.
2 Seconds per lap may looks like nothing for one lap, but imagine a race with 20 or 30 laps... It will become impossible to beat the FZR's...
What can we think of this? On the GTR class, if you don't use the "best car", you don't stand a chance.
I know that the cars would never be totally evened, the cars need to have some pros and cons, but they could race in a way that we could at least race together.
PS: sorry the terrible english
erm, but don't the cars have "considerable" pros and cons?
At least they did until "patchday"
right?
At least they did until "patchday"
right?
nope and nope
Well... kind of. GTR cars feel and act different but sad part is: FZR doesn't have weaknesses as the other two have. Same story in the TBO class where FXO is invincible at the moment. That's the whole problem in a nutshell.
Doesn't the FZR use more fuel than XRR and FXR? I think someone said something like that when we had a race a few days ago..
(But I don't know how much difference it makes but.. A pitstop takes time.)
It kind of makes a difference, but when your car's 2 seconds a lap faster than everyone else you can stop for lunch while doing the pitspot and being still ahead.
Just ask Michael Schumacher and Ferrari.
True, didn't think before i wrote
What about handicaps? I know this would completely screw World stats and maybe this would only work for servers not reporting stats, but if you want "realism" than handicaps is how all the governing bodies handle class differences. Cars in the real world classes aren't the same, and that's realism, but in order to have racing that's even handed (and yeah, commercially viable), rules are set to undo any particular advantages one manufacturer eeks out of the specs.
If a server could dial in weight additions and in-take restrictors, servers could even out classes per track per race. Otherwise you'll never get "even" cars. Because what makes one car have the advantage on one track is it's handicap on another.
If a server could dial in weight additions and in-take restrictors, servers could even out classes per track per race. Otherwise you'll never get "even" cars. Because what makes one car have the advantage on one track is it's handicap on another.
Hmmm...
I always found that one of the biggest advantages of having a racesim without real cars is that you can balance different cars with different characteristics to be as competetive to each other as possible without having to look for any real performances. Just look at the WTCC. RWD and FWD cars with different weight distributions and stuff, and they are all regulated to be very close performance-wise. And if one of them peaks out it will soon be regulated by weight penalties or even adjusted regulations for a special car. And in the end I find WTCC to be among the most exciting motorsports to be broadcasted on TV. Just because of the competition of different concepts on an equal level.
So why not make use of the "un-real" cars we have in LFS and make them competetive to each other while still being very different in characteristics? This can only result in highly interesting and exciting races.
This is a task that is not done very easily and it might take several steps of adjustments by the devs. But thinking of the possible results it's worth the effort, IMHO of course.
I always found that one of the biggest advantages of having a racesim without real cars is that you can balance different cars with different characteristics to be as competetive to each other as possible without having to look for any real performances. Just look at the WTCC. RWD and FWD cars with different weight distributions and stuff, and they are all regulated to be very close performance-wise. And if one of them peaks out it will soon be regulated by weight penalties or even adjusted regulations for a special car. And in the end I find WTCC to be among the most exciting motorsports to be broadcasted on TV. Just because of the competition of different concepts on an equal level.
So why not make use of the "un-real" cars we have in LFS and make them competetive to each other while still being very different in characteristics? This can only result in highly interesting and exciting races.
This is a task that is not done very easily and it might take several steps of adjustments by the devs. But thinking of the possible results it's worth the effort, IMHO of course.
The moe 4h test race showed what an underdog xrr is. Fzr was at least 1.5s faster per lap and some could even do one stop less than the xrr's.
Best fzr had an avarage laptime of 1:49.79, while best xrr had 1:51.41.
More specific stats can be seen here: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=8293
Best fzr had an avarage laptime of 1:49.79, while best xrr had 1:51.41.
More specific stats can be seen here: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=8293
Why worry about mixed class races, with cars that simulate real world cars? If you want mixed class races, then it should be modeled after real world mixed class races, where the power to weight ratio determines the class, and the cars are heavily modified for racing, not street cars with minor mods.
There is no FZR or FXR or XRR in real life. Neither a XRT, RB4 or FXO. The good thing about fictional cars is that you can alter them as you like.
Vain
For sprint races i think that the fzr would always be quicker even with the cars more even.
If the fzr was slowed down a bit, or FXR and XRR faster, then would be more even for leagues as the FZR might be quicker still but not so quick they can open such a big lead that they can take a pit stop and still be leading.
Last night i was racing 10 laps on team server, i was in the FXR racing two people in the FZR and i was just about quicker. I was needing to drive right on the edge of my ability (and usually past it) to have any chance of winning.
If the fzr was slowed down a bit, or FXR and XRR faster, then would be more even for leagues as the FZR might be quicker still but not so quick they can open such a big lead that they can take a pit stop and still be leading.
Last night i was racing 10 laps on team server, i was in the FXR racing two people in the FZR and i was just about quicker. I was needing to drive right on the edge of my ability (and usually past it) to have any chance of winning.
From the voting it's obvious that most ppl want the classes to be more even. And in an ideal world, I guess they would be while remaining to have very different characteristics. However, let's not forget that it's not as easy as it might seem to even out the classes. Especially since LFS is still under developement and each change to the physics will affect the balance.
It's easy to say, make the FXO 60 kg heavier, put thinner tires on it, change the turbo-modelling etc. but it's not that easy to do as the next physics change might imbalance the classes again. And I think it's clear that the devs are working on the issue, it's just that they're very cautious about it, changing things step by step.
Plus: the setups can make a big difference. Take th FXR prepatch for example. It was by far the slowest car for a very long time - even for not-so-good drivers like myself. But at some time, some pretty nice setups were developed for it. And I remember that all of a sudden, I could get around AS National faster in the FXR than in the FZR.
So, I think time will tell how uneven the classes actually are (although I doubt that it will make much of a difference for the tbo class tbh), and we will get changes with the next physics patch to account for that.
(I voted for evening out the classes, btw)
It's easy to say, make the FXO 60 kg heavier, put thinner tires on it, change the turbo-modelling etc. but it's not that easy to do as the next physics change might imbalance the classes again. And I think it's clear that the devs are working on the issue, it's just that they're very cautious about it, changing things step by step.
Plus: the setups can make a big difference. Take th FXR prepatch for example. It was by far the slowest car for a very long time - even for not-so-good drivers like myself. But at some time, some pretty nice setups were developed for it. And I remember that all of a sudden, I could get around AS National faster in the FXR than in the FZR.
So, I think time will tell how uneven the classes actually are (although I doubt that it will make much of a difference for the tbo class tbh), and we will get changes with the next physics patch to account for that.
(I voted for evening out the classes, btw
)maybe the vehicles are just right
look at the big picture and what future class might looklike in present format.
XRG Vs XFG
RB4 Vs XRT
FXO Vs LX4 (or TBO4)
LX6 Vs RAC Vs FZ5
UFR Vs XFR
UF1,F08,F0X and BF1 are all in their own
GTR Class mmm well maybe we have one more car to make GTR class that devs havent finished yet ?
sooo...
XRR Vs FXR
FZR Vs ???
I do agree that FZR and FXO in the current class are just to fast and faster this is addressed the better racing we all could have. Luckily FXO is my favourite car so although it bothers me that im driving the "noobmobile" i also am comfortable in knowledge that ive got fastest car in the class.
But i do miss silly RWD drivers
trying to overtake this machine of elegance
so if you are reading Mr Roberts please can you slow down my car a touch, nothing drastic just a reduction of power, (maybe just reset FXO hotlaps not entire data) im sure the community would appreciate this greatly if it were possible without having to reset hotlaps entirely, or alternatively just segregate the 2 offenders (FXO/FZR) from having ability to upload hotlaps , and maybe spend a a few weeks testing different balancing of the vehicles. 
i really not sure whats for best , maybe adjust class for TBO so its just TB and a new class O4 or all together (TBO4) and just tweak FZR.
??? i dunno its tricky topic for sure
look at the big picture and what future class might looklike in present format.
XRG Vs XFG
RB4 Vs XRT
FXO Vs LX4 (or TBO4)
LX6 Vs RAC Vs FZ5
UFR Vs XFR
UF1,F08,F0X and BF1 are all in their own
GTR Class mmm well maybe we have one more car to make GTR class that devs havent finished yet ?
sooo...
XRR Vs FXR
FZR Vs ???
I do agree that FZR and FXO in the current class are just to fast and faster this is addressed the better racing we all could have. Luckily FXO is my favourite car
so although it bothers me that im driving the "noobmobile" i also am comfortable in knowledge that ive got fastest car in the class.But i do miss silly RWD drivers
trying to overtake this machine of elegance so if you are reading Mr Roberts please can you slow down my car a touch, nothing drastic just a reduction of power, (maybe just reset FXO hotlaps not entire data) im sure the community would appreciate this greatly if it were possible without having to reset hotlaps entirely, or alternatively just segregate the 2 offenders (FXO/FZR) from having ability to upload hotlaps , and maybe spend a a few weeks testing different balancing of the vehicles. i really not sure whats for best , maybe adjust class for TBO so its just TB and a new class O4 or all together (TBO4) and just tweak FZR.??? i dunno its tricky topic for sure
you mean real drivers yeah
I must admit, I do miss being competitive with the XRT vs. FXO. Its a good thing my LX4 can still munch your FXO on the smaller tracks
As for the FZR, the MoE race really showed that their is no disadvantage in taking the FZR seeing as the tyres are now alot more managable on it, and the extra fuel consumption is obviously negated by its extra speed.
IMO, each class should have two cars near the top of the class and an 'easier' car. That way, if you want to be competitive at least you have a choice.
Sure, we don't want identical cars, but IMO the the rear-engined FZR and front-engined XRT are a big enough difference already in terms of handling. Also, one car will ALWAYS be faster than the other, purely determined by driver and track combination. However, if the top cars were at least able to trade hotlaps from track to track, given whatever track they were most suited to, then the TBO4 and GTR classes would be a bit more mixed up.
I think LX4 and FXO are closer than you think. Again it depends on the drivers in th server.
You gotta stop thinking "depends on the driver" and start thinking "driver with the same ability in different cars".
No n00b in an FXO or FZR will beat Rudi or Nils or Biggie in a XRR or RB4. But would Nils in a XRT have a chance against Rudi in an FXO (both being their favorite cars when performance is not counted)? Hell no. Simply because the FXO is a ****load quicker. Same goes for XRR vs. FZR.
No n00b in an FXO or FZR will beat Rudi or Nils or Biggie in a XRR or RB4. But would Nils in a XRT have a chance against Rudi in an FXO (both being their favorite cars when performance is not counted)? Hell no. Simply because the FXO is a ****load quicker. Same goes for XRR vs. FZR.
Even out car classes.
(169 posts, started )
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