3D is the new big thing. Avatar at the cinema, the 2010 World Cup on our TV and Batman Arkham Asylum on our PC - all with 3D firmly in mind.

Avatar has created a cinematic revolution, the FIFA World Cup in 3D will ensure tens of thousands of new 3D capable televisions are sold, and Batman Arkham Asylum has proven that when done right, 3D on the PC is the pinnacle of the technology.

But that's the problem; Rocksteady Studios are the only team to capatalise on this. It looks absolutely breathtaking with Nvidia's 3D Vision setup. No ghosting, perfect depth perception. It feels like what you're seeing a tangible objects in front of your monitor. You think you can reach out and touch it.

I haven't met many that would argue against my stance that the best application for 3D gaming is surely in aircraft and land vehicle sims and arcade games. I'm currently using my Nvidia 3D Vision package to play LFS, and it's good, but flawed. The core problem is ghosting due to convergence at different distances makes it impossible to use accurate depth settings. There is also no in-game gamma setting, so everything looks quite dark in 3D.

I'm hoping that LFS can be the first mainstream consumer-focused race sim to successfully adopt 3D support.

oh please shutter glasses have been around for at least 10 years and they never really took off because its a very flawed technology

I beg to differ... as does Hollywood, as does the next generation of television broadcasting.

A lot changes in 10 years of technology. Go see Avatar, or better yet try Nvidia 3D Vision. There's nothing flawed about playing Arkham Asylum - the quality of image as good as sharp and detailed as playing it normally, but in 3D; like looking out a window. It's truly surreal.

Sigh, ok I'll bite.

What's your beef this time Shot?

Everything I've tried so far (which is limited) w/ 3D Vision is pretty impressive actually. I would imagine that with a new 60" 120Hz TV it would be very much so. WoW is great, CoD is great, iRacing looks good...

iRacing has the same "issues" as LFS, as does rFactor. They're still good, but could be much better. As mentioned, I'd love to see LFS be the first with full support, as I personally think it's the best of the bunch.

And yes; CoD is great. Playing Modern Warfare 2 in 3D blew my mind. But, it still has some small issues. None as big as ghosting/convergence issues, but the crosshair is rendered in 2D and does not adjust with the 3D depth, so you need to disable it and enable the hardware crosshair.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Sigh, ok I'll bite.

What's your beef this time Shot?

Everything I've tried so far (which is limited) w/ 3D Vision is pretty impressive actually. I would imagine that with a new 60" 120Hz TV it would be very much so. WoW is great, CoD is great, iRacing looks good...

nothing just that its age old technology that never really took off for good reason
the whole thing is a relatively heavy pieve of kit (particularly when compared to better techniques such as polarisation filters or 3 colour comb filters used in dolby 3d) you need a high refresh rate monitor and still only get half the refresh rate so it will flicker to some degree (might be a bit better with the sample and hold tfts compared to crts which at 60hz meant horrible flickering) and the requirement of alternating images at 120hz means that the only viable panel technology for this is tn which are of course best known for being utterly rubbish
also 3d in games always looks off since you cant use depth of field (with the exception of cinematic games) which means that everything will be in focus regardless of depth which just looks off in every which way

lastly and this is by far the biggest problem with all 3d on a screen... the whole thing doesnt work properly unless the screen is gigantic
the thing is as soon as you become aware of the depth of the edge of your screen in actual space everything that is 3d on the screen moves into the the screen and cannot appear in front of the screen

at work we recently got a pretty good presentation of the problem with a 3d video on our rather large cinema screen
there was a scene where an object in the video came out of the screen to the point where it appeared to be just a few cm in front of your face... unfortunately that object then moved to the edge of the screen which caused the effect to suddenly disappear completely

Quote :

nothing just that its age old technology that never really took off for good reason

Because it wasn't ready. 10 years of advancement does a lot for a product. And now big studios are adopting it.

Quote :

the whole thing is a relatively heavy pieve of kit (particularly when compared to better techniques such as polarisation filters or 3 colour comb filters used in dolby 3d)

Heavy? Not heavier than my pair of sunglasses.

Quote :

you need a high refresh rate monitor and still only get half the refresh rate so it will flicker to some degree (might be a bit better with the sample and hold tfts compared to crts which at 60hz meant horrible flickering) and the requirement of alternating images at 120hz means that the only viable panel technology for this is tn which are of course best known for being utterly rubbish

No flickering here. 120Hz Samsung LCD. That's 60Hz per eye, the same as what you would see on most LCD's. And even 60Hz LCD's don't "flicker" - that was a CRT characteristic. Also; nothing wrong with needing a high refresh rate panel. My old 22" CRT did 140Hz - we took a step back with LCD/plasma. It's about time we got back to where we once were. But yes, this Samsung panel I'm using is absolute rubbish. But I've only bought it for games. My graphic design is done on my other screen.

Quote :

also 3d in games always looks off since you cant use depth of field (with the exception of cinematic games) which means that everything will be in focus regardless of depth which just looks off in every which way

The depth is created by your own vision. When I'm looking down the sights in Modern Warfare 2, my gun is blurry, because I'm not focusing on it. However, like in real life, I can focus on that instead, and then the distance in blurry. The only time it would all be crisp is if I had the depth set very low.

Quote :

lastly and this is by far the biggest problem with all 3d on a screen... the whole thing doesnt work properly unless the screen is gigantic
the thing is as soon as you become aware of the depth of the edge of your screen in actual space everything that is 3d on the screen moves into the the screen and cannot appear in front of the screen

40" and larger panels will be out by June 2010 for the World Cup 3D broadcasts. But I don't share your concern here anyway - I'm on a 22" and it's amazingly immersive. Good 3D isn't about throwing stuff at you, it's about dragging you in.


I'm really not sure why I'm bothering to defend the product - most of the commercial and consumer world is against you on this one. Based on your statements, it seems you haven't even given Nvidia 3D Vision a few hours of personal use. Go play Arkham Asylum with it and get back to me with an opinion that's backed up by recent and relevant experience. I can unequivocally assure you that your stance will have changed...

Quote from jamieskella :

Because it wasn't ready. 10 years of advancement does a lot for a product. And now big studios are adopting it.

youre mixing better 3d techniques used on large cinema screen with technology that hasnt changed one bit used on very tiny ones
completely different ballpark

Quote :

No flickering here. 120Hz Samsung LCD. That's 60Hz per eye, the same as what you would see on most LCD's.

its not the same at all a normal lcd doenst not show you a picture at any one point a shutter glas does close one your eyes every few ms for some time

Quote :

The depth is created by your own vision. When I'm looking down the sights in Modern Warfare 2, my gun is blurry, because I'm not focusing on it. However, like in real life, I can focus on that instead, and then the distance in blurry. The only time it would all be crisp is if I had the depth set very low.

youre not understanding how this works at all
your eyes are always focused on the same depth which is the distance of your screen to your eyes and everything you see is actually at that depth
the 3d perception is only you looking more or less corsseyed which does create double image at whichever perceived depth youre not looking at

the thing is unlike in real 3d space all of those double images are seen by your eyes in perfect sharpness (depending on how good your eyes are of course) since they are all on the same focus distance
out in the real world however those double images are blurry which is the way they should look for the scene to feel natural

trouble is no 3d technology i know of and certainly none available to customers tracks your eyes crosseyedness to adjust the depth of field according to where your looking at and of course most games require you to see different 3d depths sharp (racing games are an extreme example where a dash some 50cm in front of you has to be readable as well as the corner brake markers 100m in front of you) so you cant just choose an arbitrary depth of field (eg wherever your crosshair is pointing at) and be done with it (with the exception of the previously mentioned cinematic games which expect you too look at whatever the game designer wants you to look at)

Quote :

40" and larger panels will be out by June 2010 for the World Cup 3D broadcasts.

40" is still way too tiny for the effect to work properly you need a screen that fills your entire field of view or at least the bit your imminently aware of which is why imax screens are so huge

Quote from Shotglass :

youre mixing better 3d techniques used on large cinema screen with technology that hasnt changed one bit used on very tiny ones
completely different ballpark

It most certainly has changed - evolution is still advancement, even if it's not a revolution. And for the record, the fidelity of image and quality of experience delivered with Nvidia's 3D Vision is far superior to my experiences in any cinema (Up! and Avatar are good examples).

Quote from Shotglass :

youre not understanding how this works at all
your eyes are always focused on the same depth which is the distance of your screen to your eyes and everything you see is actually at that depth
the 3d perception is only you looking more or less corsseyed which does create double image at whichever perceived depth youre not looking at

the thing is unlike in real 3d space all of those double images are seen by your eyes in perfect sharpness (depending on how good your eyes are of course) since they are all on the same focus distance
out in the real world however those double images are blurry which is the way they should look for the scene to feel natural

trouble is no 3d technology i know of and certainly none available to customers tracks your eyes crosseyedness to adjust the depth of field according to where your looking at and of course most games require you to see different 3d depths sharp (racing games are an extreme example where a dash some 50cm in front of you has to be readable as well as the corner brake markers 100m in front of you) so you cant just choose an arbitrary depth of field (eg wherever your crosshair is pointing at) and be done with it (with the exception of the previously mentioned cinematic games which expect you too look at whatever the game designer wants you to look at)

When I'm focusing on the road in LFS, the cockpit isn't. It may be nothing more than how in the same way that when you focus on the middle of your computer screen (say, this text input box), the task-bar down bottom is out of focus. But that's enough to create the illusion for me.

Quote from Shotglass :

40" is still way too tiny for the effect to work properly you need a screen that fills your entire field of view or at least the bit your imminently aware of which is why imax screens are so huge

I disagree whole-heartedly. My 22" is enough (when a couple feet away). As previously stated, good 3D isn't about throwing stuff at you, it's about dragging you in. Most of Avatar sets itself up so that the 3D world is inside of the screen - it doesn't try to pretend anything is coming out of it, or at you.


I'll also reiterate this, which you conveniently ignored:

Quote from rec :

I'm really not sure why I'm bothering to defend the product - most of the commercial and consumer world is against you on this one. Based on your statements, it seems you haven't even given Nvidia 3D Vision a few hours of personal use. Go play Arkham Asylum with it and get back to me with an opinion that's backed up by recent and relevant experience. I can unequivocally assure you that your stance will have changed...

You can argue this until the cows come home, but the 3D Blu-ray format was just finalised, TV's are out next year, films are being made with it in mind, sports and other TV have confirmed plans to film in stereoscopic... It's leaps and bounds ahead of the stereoscopic equipment I've tried in the past. Playing Batman Arkham Asylum is like having a whole micro-set with figureines set-up in front of you... just as clear, just as tangible. Feel free not to try it, though.

So I finally picked up my own 3D Vision kit and have had some time to play around with it more with LFS, and ... well everything .

iRacing and LFS both show the ghosting a bit because of the large contrast against simple shapes (white lines on a dark background for example). That is a monitor limitation; the monitor just isn't fast enough white to black to eliminate the ghosting sometimes. in 3D it runs only maximum brightness as well. Other than that I have no problem with LFS or iRacing, eventhough the brightness takes a hit I don't find it big enough to bother me.

I had a question though Shot, since your eyes are continually refocussing anyway, isn't depth of field irrelevant? I mean... don't you have true DOF just by the very nature of observing in 3D? Objects that are not in my focal range don't look in focus to me because I'm not looking directly at them... I've actually found this system to be less straining on my eyes after prolonged use, and I attribute that to the fact that my eye muslces are not locked at a 50cm distance, but have to actually refocus continually like they're supposed to.

Very happy with the kit so far overall... 8/10.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

That is a monitor limitation; the monitor just isn't fast enough white to black to eliminate the ghosting sometimes.

yay lcd... told you people for years its a rubbish technology

Quote :

I mean... don't you have true DOF just by the very nature of observing in 3D?

no because your eyes arent focusing in 3d
all your eyes are doing is looking more or less crosseyed
the actual focus distance of your eyes lens is always your eye to screen distance

Quote from Shotglass :

yay lcd... told you people for years its a rubbish technology

Is that a TN panel thing?

Quote :

no because your eyes arent focusing in 3d
all your eyes are doing is looking more or less crosseyed
the actual focus distance of your eyes lens is always your eye to screen distance

Hmmm..

Cross eyed would only be for images in front of zero paralax though correct? You're not going crosseyed from observing something that appears behind the monitor from my understanding.

edit: I just re-read the thread, sorry I missed you talking about focal distance in the previous post. What's your thoughts then on why my eyes don't get so tired using it? I can sit here at work in 2D all day and get tired eyes, but this has gone away during gaming now that I run it in 3D mode. What you're saying makes sense though, except for the cross eyed part. My eyes simply receive two different images and my brain (hopefully) works that into a 3D perception, where does cross eyed come into play? Except for out of screen effects I can't see what going cross eyed has to do with it. But that makes sense since you will go cross eyed if you move your finger towards your nose...

My thought is this:

Your brain "knows" the distance of an object by the convergence of your eyes. With your glasses you need to change that convergence (cross your eyes more or less), and voila, 3D depht

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Is that a TN panel thing?

nah tn is the fastest lcd type but making switches at 8ms is still too fast for a tn (dont for one second buy the 2ms they try to sell you which can be achieved under certain idealised conditions)

Quote :

Cross eyed would only be for images in front of zero paralax though correct? You're not going crosseyed from observing something that appears behind the monitor from my understanding.

you are... for certain values of crosseyedness
both eyes always point at the same spot whether its a finger held right in front of your nose or a star several lightyears away your eyes and that point in space will always form a triangle

Quote :

What's your thoughts then on why my eyes don't get so tired using it? I can sit here at work in 2D all day and get tired eyes, but this has gone away during gaming now that I run it in 3D mode.

no idea really
maybe because you move your eyes a lot more instead of constantly keeping them pointed at more or less the same point in space

you could try rolling your eyes a little when you feel they get tired
if it helps the constant adjustments in crossedeyedness when watching 3d content might be the reason they dont tire (not tyre which you collonials refuse to spell correctly for some reason)

Quote :

What you're saying makes sense though, except for the cross eyed part. My eyes simply receive two different images and my brain (hopefully) works that into a 3D perception, where does cross eyed come into play?

look at the railway tracks on this one
http://farm4.static.flickr.com ... 3713950863_47f7fb1a8f.jpg
its rather clear to see on the left one
so when you look along the track with red blue glasses your eyes will look at 2 points that are progressively further apart which means the lines of sight for each eye will converge at a virtual point in space somewhere behind the screen (but still at the same point so technically crosseyed)
if you follow the tracks from the background the the forground much the same happens as when you focus on your finger and move it closer to your eyes ie youll look more and more crosseyed

Quote from Shotglass :

nah tn is the fastest lcd type but making switches at 8ms is still too fast for a tn (dont for one second buy the 2ms they try to sell you which can be achieved under certain idealised conditions)

That's my only real complaint with this system, otherwise I love it and it works very well. In most scenes / games you don't notice ghosting but in situations where there is too much contrast with a very sharp transition, it's just plain not responsive enough, which is kind of a let down. For the price I would've wanted perfection, but truth be told if there is major action happening in the game I just don't notice it. It's only noticable during sightseeing, which one tends to do a lot of when the novelty hasn't worn off this toy yet. As well, the top couple cm of the screen are goofy, presumably because the monitor scans top down and the glasses are timed for the centre of the screen and it's just too fast. That make sense to you or is my crap defective?

Quote :

you are... for certain values of crosseyedness
both eyes always point at the same spot whether its a finger held right in front of your nose or a star several lightyears away your eyes and that point in space will always form a triangle

heh, :doh: didn't think that through, sorry for seeming retarded. Had a bad day at work, Chinese supplier has ruined years of R&D and work. Kinda of a bummer. Everything makes sense now that I read that statement.

Quote :

the constant adjustments in crossedeyedness when watching 3d content might be the reason they dont tire (not tyre which you collonials refuse to spell correctly for some reason)

I bet this is the exact reason. I'll overlook your delusional phonetics and appreciate the exposure of the reason behind my less tired eyes. I was thinking it was having to refocus, that's clearly wrong although I can see why I made that mistake having overlooked the fact that the object (screen) is still physically in the same spot. What a dummy heh.

Quote :

which means the lines of sight for each eye will converge at a virtual point in space somewhere behind the screen (but still at the same point so technically crosseyed)

Of course I see that now, but that being said saying that nVidia 3D Vision (tm) works via "crosseyedness" is a tad misleading, since for objects that appear beyond your monitors depth, you're actually just being less crosseyed and for objects appearing closer than your monitor you're being a little more crosseyed. You had me thinking I was going to be walking around like Jeffy from the movie "The Ringer" there for a minute :P

As well, what would be a better method to accompish the illusion?

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

As well, the top couple cm of the screen are goofy, presumably because the monitor scans top down and the glasses are timed for the centre of the screen and it's just too fast. That make sense to you or is my crap defective?

i havent got the slightest clue
the only thing i can tell you is that we recently found that lcds do some goofy nonsensical stuff when they update their screens but if that has anything to do with what you found i havent got the faintest idea

eg this (dell 27" displaying white photographed at 1/4000s
http://www.prad.de/images/monitore/dell_2709w_subframe_2.jpg

Quote :

As well, what would be a better method to accompish the illusion?

thats a tough one
as for the effect itself glasses with 2 screens that both cover your entire field of view would probably work best but be heavy and incredibly annoying to wear

i guess the only way to really do it properly is with a single projector method (eg dolby 3d... eliminates the errors you get round the edge of the screen due to impossible to avoid alignment errors... also from my experience you lose the least amount of brightness and colour saturation with dolby 3d) a screen that fills your entire field of view (so you dont get the window into a 3d world effect) and a camera that tracks your crosseyedness and adjusts the depth of field accordingly
obviously a rather expensive setup

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

iRacing and LFS both show the ghosting a bit because of the large contrast against simple shapes (white lines on a dark background for example). That is a monitor limitation; the monitor just isn't fast enough white to black to eliminate the ghosting sometimes.

Afaik, it's a software (convergence) issue, not monitor.

There is no ghosting in Batman Arkham Asylum what-so-ever, but is in most other non official "Nvidia 3D Vision Ready" games.

No not really. It depends on what's being drawn 100%. Batman is very dark (colorwise) game. But; even in that - close one eye and wait a minute, your eyes will adjust and see the ghosting even in that. WoW is "nVidia 3D Vision Ready" and has native support even in the menus. But in Icecrown for example the ghosting is visible; but not in darker zones like Duskwood for example. That and the fact that the glasses just don't (can't) block out 100% of the light to one eye means that this approach, while good, does have limitations that are notable. I still like it a lot though and I don't regret the purchase

There is no "software" issue to make reference to. Games draw 3D images, the forceware driver is reponsible for making 2 images now from slightly different points in space. Not hard, and not something the said game really has to worry about, other than drawing things in the right place within the z-buffer (simply put). It's not like it needs "native support" generally speaking, for most circumstances.

There are clearly game-based optimisations well worth making, as the visual fidelity of Batman is far above any other games I've played with it. In other games, the greater the depth, the greater the ghosting (even though most of the time it's not a bother). In Batman, it doesn't matter if it's low or high, everything looks flawlessly rendered.

Excitingly, it looks like Battlefield Bad Company 2 will be providing official support for it, too: http://gamers-underground.com/ ... a-schedule-announced.html

And I imagine many other developers will follow suit over the next 6-12 months due to the rise of consumer interest and entertainment industry backing.