Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Because racism is in large part a learned behavior (nurture, not nature), passed down from parents to children (often unconsciously), and so are the defense mechanisms inherent in those who have been discriminated against in the past.

i dont know what kind of parenting you received but my parents went to college in whats know in german as the 68 era (sort of a 60s hippie thing mixed with shooting ex nazi politicians on the right) and soaked up those ideas so im fairly sure my parenting was free of any such teachings whether conscious or unconscious
and again a hypothetical black guy my age hasnt been discriminated or enslaved in some past that happened many years ago in a country an ocean away from here and at the practically a whole world away

Quote :

It takes generations upon generations for these things to work themselves out, even after the original stimulus is gone.

basically what youre saying is that you have a very pesimistic outlook on people
you also assume that children arent able to think for themself and figure out that its more likely their grandfathers or fathers are twats for what the believe instead of all black people being criminals (or whatever racist stereotype they might try to imprint on their children)

Quote :

And even then learned biases, even dormant ones, are easily reinforced through anecdotal encounters.

again you pretty much assume that all people are stupid and unable to figure out that anecdotal evidence is no evidence whatsoever

maybe theres something im missing here with the us population seemingly still stuck in the 50s cold war judging by the political discussions you can find all across the interweb and brits seemingly still living in some daydream of voctorian emperial glory both having missed the last 100 years or so of social and ethical development
i can assure you though that after having gotten quite a bit of a wake up call some 65 years ago the german population by and large is able to somehow survive and function without much of this pc nonsence

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

But note that you still immediately reached for the WW2 analogy, because somewhere in the recesses of your mind you still instinctually associate Germany (modern Germany, where most living people have no memory of the war) with barbaric Nazism, the holocaust, the bombing of England, etc, rather than any of the other more positive things you might associate the country with.

again mighty mighty pesimistic outlook on people in general
it doesnt even seem to occur to you that he uses this anology based on his knowledge that german can be associated with all those and not because he personally does

by your logic the reason i take the piss out of brits for their inability to shoot penalties would be because im still cross about the wembley goal that happened almost 20 years before i was born instead of the much more simple (occams razor essentially) and resonable explanation that its simply because its genuinely funny to watch them miss the goal repeatedly

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Because racism is in large part a learned behavior (nurture, not nature), passed down from parents to children (often unconsciously), and so are the defense mechanisms inherent in those who have been discriminated against in the past.

Slow down a minute dude! Your presenting the idea a child has learned behaviour (racism in this example) from a parent as fact. That is not a fact but a point of view. Nature Vs Nurture by Judith Rich Harris is a very good read on the matter

I haven't read this thread I've just picked up on that point as i suspect it's a critical one.

Quote from Intrepid :

Slow down a minute dude! Your presenting the idea a child has learned behaviour (racism in this example) from a parent as fact. That is not a fact but a point of view. Nature Vs Nurture by Judith Rich Harris is a very good read on the matter

So are you saying children are born racist?

Quote from Intrepid :

I haven't read this thread I've just picked up on that point as i suspect it's a critical one.

Picking up on it and doing nothing with it.

@shotty: damn right I'm pessimistic about human nature. you only have to take one look at a history book to see why.

@intrepid: it certainly is my opinion.

ofc children are born racists. Much like sarcasm is in the genes. Who would think the sociological view in psychology has any base at all?

Quote from thisnameistaken :

So are you saying children are born racist

No, it's not as simple as that, but I certainly thinks it's within the realms of possibility a child could be born with traits that may increase their chances of being what we would call 'racist'. I am certainly not saying 'kids are born racist' that's a naive over simplification of what I said.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Picking up on it and doing nothing with it.

I have suggested a highly rated book for anyone that is interested in learning more about this subject. I am not going to recite 300 pages of research and discovery.

Yep, there's a gene for everything these days. A god gene, a stupid gene, a lazy gene, a selfish gene, a narcissistic gene, an "I-ain't-got-no-money" gene, a "when the bloody hell is the next LFS patch gonna arrive" gene...a you-gene.

It's all a load of pants, if you ask me.

Quote from Intrepid :

I have suggested a highly rated book for anyone that is interested in learning more about this subject. I am not going to recite 300 pages of research and discovery.

Ah, good call. Maybe we should all simply recommend published research that supports our points of view and then we can all go down to the library for a week and read it all.

Quote from Mazz4200 :

Yep, there's a gene for everything these days. A god gene, a stupid gene, a lazy gene, a selfish gene, a narcissistic gene, an "I-ain't-got-no-money" gene, a "when the bloody hell is the next LFS patch gonna arrive" gene...a you-gene.

It's all a load of pants, if you ask me.

Don't forget the "fat gene"

Quote from danowat :

Don't forget the "fat gene"

He went to my school.

Quote from Mazz4200 :

Yep, there's a gene for everything these days. A god gene, a stupid gene, a lazy gene, a selfish gene, a narcissistic gene, an "I-ain't-got-no-money" gene, a "when the bloody hell is the next LFS patch gonna arrive" gene...a you-gene.

It's all a load of pants, if you ask me.

I think its the way the media portray it for maximum effect e.g "If you have this gene you WILL die"

It certainly is perfectly reasonable to say someone with a certain gene is more likely to turn out a certain way though. Just look at identical twin studies for example. There are some remarkable findings.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

He went to my school.

Kev and Fat-Gene were classmates? Daym.

Quote from Intrepid :

Just look at identical twin studies for example. There are some remarkable findings.

Good point, I remember a case where twins had been seperated at birth each having no idea they had a twin. When they found out and met each other it turned out they had lead almost identicle lives. I can't remember what program I saw it on though, probably Horizon or something like that.

Quote from Intrepid :

I think its the way the media portray it for maximum effect e.g "If you have this gene you WILL die"

It certainly is perfectly reasonable to say someone with a certain gene is more likely to turn out a certain way though. Just look at identical twin studies for example. There are some remarkable findings.

Yeah, i'm sure there is something in it, although how significant it is in a child's development will vary depending on so many other factors, i.e the parental upbringing, environment, money etc etc.

The thing that gets me is, this sort of thing tends to be used to take away the culpability and responsibility of the individual with regards to his/her future actions and mindset..."Well, i can't help being a mindless drug taking chavy thug, it's just the way i am, it's genetic". A few years ago every problem known to man was because of some sort of 'disorder'. This kids crap at maths...oh he must have a disorder, this one's no good a football, yep, he's got a disorder, this other one's a kleptomaniac, same again, a disorder, so lets all bend over backwards for these poor unfortunates and try to live around their problems, rather than telling them to work harder, try harder, or stop stealing !

This Nature v Nurture debate usually misses the point. Yes it may explain a myriad of humanistic personality traits, likes, wants and needs. But, should it ever be used as an excuse for wrong behaviour ?, should it ever be considered unchangeable ? Who said nature can't be tamed, controlled and mastered ?

A good friend of mine is well into his 40's, but he can neither read nor write (how, he's survived this long i've no idea). But non-the-less, he's got a wife, a couple of kids, and a steady job. He claims his inability to comprehend the written word is purely genetic (or maybe it's a disorder ?) yet, give him a task to do that's out of his comfort zone and if he can't do it at the first attempt, he just quits and leaves it, or even worse, if he doesn't even understand it in the first place, he won't even try. Now, thing is, he had a really really shit childhood, he never ever got any encouragement or praise for anything when he was a kid. He was the only coloured kid in his school, so he was constantly taunted by the other kids, and the teachers were very off with him too. His father left home when he was very young, and his mother, well, (i know the woman quite well, so..) all i can say is she did her best, even though she's never worked a day in her life.....So, is this nature dealing him a dodgy set of genes, or, is this nurture treating him like a worthless reject ?

I'm sure human behaviour is a result of many many differing variables, but, to blame everything on this, that or the other is a bit of a cop-out in my opinion. Why not take a bit of responsibility for our own actions, attitudes and behaviour. We are supposed to be an evolving species, after all.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

Good point, I remember a case where twins had been seperated at birth each having no idea they had a twin. When they found out and met each other it turned out they had lead almost identicle lives. I can't remember what program I saw it on though, probably Horizon or something like that.

Considering both twins are from the same set of cells, its not that suprising.

Quote from danowat :

Considering both twins are from the same set of cells, its not that suprising.

It is when you consider how much time and effort is put into placing a massive importance on parenting and environmental factors in regard to child personality and behaviour including government legislation. How many times do we hear "I blame the parents""? It is an immensely complex issue though that goes to the core of out existence!

The old nature vs nuture argument, been rumbling on for decades, doubt there will even be any resolution of it.

There are obviously a certain set of hardcoded genetic parameters in all of us, but they are just the building blocks, how far they permiate into our "personallity" in later life is something thats up for debate, and has been for a dogs age.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

http://www.amazon.com/Genius-A ... ng-Genetics/dp/0385523653

I went to school with a kid (no, not Fat Gene) who I always thought was astonishingly thick. He never achieved anything academically, often got into fights, hung around with the other stupid, oafish kids (although he was usually quieter and less trouble than they were). The only thing I remember him doing of note at school was cutting his own name into his arm with a Stanley knife and dripping ink from a ballpoint pen in there to tattoo himself. When he left school he became an apprentice glass blower, had a kid at 17, etc.

Anyway I bumped into him recently, he's done a bachelors in computer science and he's working as a C++ developer for some code shop in Leeds. From somewhere he's suddenly also become a very articulate and engaging speaker, and he's taken up painting with oils and from what I've seen he's bloody amazing at it.

I still barely believe it. Honestly it's like he's a completely different person.

Maybe what he was like before was some kind of oppressed state, like as if he was forcing himself to fit in with all the stupid, oafish kids.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I went to school with a kid (no, not Fat Gene) who I always thought was astonishingly thick. He never achieved anything academically, often got into fights, hung around with the other stupid, oafish kids (although he was usually quieter and less trouble than they were). The only thing I remember him doing of note at school was cutting his own name into his arm with a Stanley knife and dripping ink from a ballpoint pen in there to tattoo himself. When he left school he became an apprentice glass blower, had a kid at 17, etc.

Anyway I bumped into him recently, he's done a bachelors in computer science and he's working as a C++ developer for some code shop in Leeds. From somewhere he's suddenly also become a very articulate and engaging speaker, and he's taken up painting with oils and from what I've seen he's bloody amazing at it.

I still barely believe it. Honestly it's like he's a completely different person.

if I look back on my self 4-6 yers ago I've grown immensely, I can't believe I used to be that person. At the time if I looked bbl on myself 4-6 years previous to that: I would barely recognise myself either.

Life is a continuing state of learning and development.

Neither nature or nature will have anything like the influence over us as we have over ourselves by the time we are 30.

I am not the progeny of my genes, nor am I the progeny of the things that have happened to me...

I learned from nurture, and nature gavee me a starting point: but the person I am now is the person I chose to become.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

@shotty: damn right I'm pessimistic about human nature. you only have to take one look at a history book to see why.

you see the thing about history is that it happened to people whove long tunred to stinky rotten flesh and in many cases good riddance to them
the problem with assuming that history is abount to repeat itself is that its often self fullfilling and i dont want to go on a rant about positive thinking because i believe that to be baloney myself

apart from that i feel theres not much difference in prejudice against others based on race and against others based on species

Quote from Shotglass :

you see the thing about history is that it happened to people whove long tunred to stinky rotten flesh and in many cases good riddance to them
the problem with assuming that history is abount to repeat itself is that its often self fullfilling and i dont want to go on a rant about positive thinking because i believe that to be baloney myself

So you're of the opinion that there's nothing shitty happening in the world today?

of course there is but im also pretty certain that on the whole theres less shit than before (especially if you normalise it to the number of people living on this rock) and not even i am pessimistic enough to believe that it will never get better