Quote from JJ72 :

You forgot about all the passes Button made last season just to get into the points? Hamilton had a lot of passes this year because he found himself in the back of the pack for two occasion, with bad qualifying and screwed up tactics.

Quote from tristancliffe :

It highlights how Jenson hasn't NEEDED to race because he isn't a brainless oaf like Lewis. Jenson has been described by some rival team personal as "one of the best overtakers in the business". But why drop down to last and fight your way up when you don't have to??

Button:
R1| Qualified 8th, Finished 7th, overtook nobody when he needed to
R2| Qualified 4th, Finished 1st, fortunate enough not to need to pass anyone
R3| Qualified 17th, Finished 8th, overtook Alonsos struggling Ferrari and the rest in pits or mech failures
R4| Qualified 5th, Finished 1st, fortunate enough not to need to pass anyone but Rosberg

Hamilton:
R1| Qualified 4th, Finished 3rd, passed Vettels struggling Red Bull
R2| Qualified 11th, Finished 6th, passed Button, Webber, Massa before being wrecked by Webber when in 5th.
R3| Qualified 20th, Finished 6th, passed 5 people on track, plus 7 on grid straight incl Button & Alonso
R4| Qualified 6th, Finished 2nd, passed approx 10+ people (midpack folks)

This isnt intended as a Hamilton is better than Button and heres the proof (though FTR IMO anyone who doesnt recognise that as being true anyway is blind) but just a bizarre observation from the first 4 races of the season. Its quite easy to say bloody hell Jensons doing well at the moment, 2 race wins, tops the driver standings etc. But when you analyse what he's done what he's actually done is actually just make 2 very good decisions which have won him races, and the other 2 races he's spent his time following others unable to pass them. The 2 races he'd won, its hard to judge as he found himself in the that position in the first few laps so didnt have the chance to prove he COULD have passed people, but in the other races he proved he COULDNT pass people.

Im sure the fact that they're having to compromise on the setup to give it better balancing and this isnt making them as fast as they could be is a factor which could soon be solved in Barcelona, they could both be overtaking with relative ease if DF is equal to the rest of the grid and the F-Duct gives them a straight line speed advantage as you'd expect (currently they're adding extra DF, which the F-Duct neutralises down the straight, meaning no speed advantage but hi-DF with no speed loss like all other cars would experience).


As for the 'yeah, well he did it last year'.... its quite easy to overtake people when you have one of the fastest cars on the grid, and thats my point. He's having to fight for passes, and he's struggling. Hamilton is too, but the difference is he has made a dozen, including Button, Massa, Alonso & Webber (+ Vettel, but in a struggling state) and thats what you expect from world champions. The likes of Senna, Prost, Schumi, Alonso... they can hussle a pass with witt & cunning maneuvers. Button showed last year he could win from the front in a dominant car, and win when a faster car (RBR) appeared and had a dozen mechanical issues... he rarely took a race by the scruff of the neck and faught for it (Brazil is the only occasion which springs to mind). Maybe thats not his fault, but it doesnt disprove my point either.

Also regarding someones 'one of a few to pass a KERS car' pull the other one, half the grid passed a KERS car at some stage. Their extra weight compromised them around 80% of the lap, so made them vulnerable where most equal cars wouldnt be, and while they're hard to defend against, it wasnt as hard to pass one because there was more opportunities (due to more defensive lines being used around the track) and being slower on the corner exit if you were still close when the KERS was deployed you'd probably be able to stick with them in the slipstream. It certainly wouldnt be like comparing single & double deck defusers, KERS was removed from many cars frequently, only McLaren ran them regularly and still removed it for a couple of rounds (Silverstone i recall, due to not enough brake points to recover energy) so many teams removing it showed it wasnt all that.

Jenson is a very good driver, many will say he's one of the best in F1, but IMO his racing ability isnt of the standard you'd expect from a WDC and he's done little to prove that. Many people were saying this at the latter stages of last season, Brazil surprised many people, but its the exception and not the norm. Vettel was a far better racer, but had mechincal issues. Jenson got the WDC exactly how you're meant to, winning races and picking up pts... you cant knock that, but IMO its the weakest WDC winner i can recall for a long time (i've watched since late 80's) but again... not his fault, he raced, won, and did so without controversy.

Quote from PaulC2K :

Button:
R1| Qualified 8th, Finished 7th, overtook nobody when he needed to
R2| Qualified 4th, Finished 1st, fortunate enough not to need to pass anyone
R3| Qualified 17th, Finished 8th, overtook Alonsos struggling Ferrari and the rest in pits or mech failures
R4| Qualified 5th, Finished 1st, fortunate enough not to need to pass anyone but Rosberg

Hamilton:
R1| Qualified 4th, Finished 3rd, passed Vettels struggling Red Bull
R2| Qualified 11th, Finished 6th, passed Button, Webber, Massa before being wrecked by Webber when in 5th.
R3| Qualified 20th, Finished 6th, passed 5 people on track, plus 7 on grid straight incl Button & Alonso
R4| Qualified 6th, Finished 2nd, passed approx 10+ people (midpack folks)

This isnt intended as a Hamilton is better than Button and heres the proof (though FTR IMO anyone who doesnt recognise that as being true anyway is blind) but just a bizarre observation from the first 4 races of the season. Its quite easy to say bloody hell Jensons doing well at the moment, 2 race wins, tops the driver standings etc. But when you analyse what he's done what he's actually done is actually just make 2 very good decisions which have won him races, and the other 2 races he's spent his time following others unable to pass them. The 2 races he'd won, its hard to judge as he found himself in the that position in the first few laps so didnt have the chance to prove he COULD have passed people, but in the other races he proved he COULDNT pass people.

Im sure the fact that they're having to compromise on the setup to give it better balancing and this isnt making them as fast as they could be is a factor which could soon be solved in Barcelona, they could both be overtaking with relative ease if DF is equal to the rest of the grid and the F-Duct gives them a straight line speed advantage as you'd expect (currently they're adding extra DF, which the F-Duct neutralises down the straight, meaning no speed advantage but hi-DF with no speed loss like all other cars would experience).


As for the 'yeah, well he did it last year'.... its quite easy to overtake people when you have one of the fastest cars on the grid, and thats my point. He's having to fight for passes, and he's struggling. Hamilton is too, but the difference is he has made a dozen, including Button, Massa, Alonso & Webber (+ Vettel, but in a struggling state) and thats what you expect from world champions. The likes of Senna, Prost, Schumi, Alonso... they can hussle a pass with witt & cunning maneuvers. Button showed last year he could win from the front in a dominant car, and win when a faster car (RBR) appeared and had a dozen mechanical issues... he rarely took a race by the scruff of the neck and faught for it (Brazil is the only occasion which springs to mind). Maybe thats not his fault, but it doesnt disprove my point either.

Also regarding someones 'one of a few to pass a KERS car' pull the other one, half the grid passed a KERS car at some stage. Their extra weight compromised them around 80% of the lap, so made them vulnerable where most equal cars wouldnt be, and while they're hard to defend against, it wasnt as hard to pass one because there was more opportunities (due to more defensive lines being used around the track) and being slower on the corner exit if you were still close when the KERS was deployed you'd probably be able to stick with them in the slipstream. It certainly wouldnt be like comparing single & double deck defusers, KERS was removed from many cars frequently, only McLaren ran them regularly and still removed it for a couple of rounds (Silverstone i recall, due to not enough brake points to recover energy) so many teams removing it showed it wasnt all that.

Jenson is a very good driver, many will say he's one of the best in F1, but IMO his racing ability isnt of the standard you'd expect from a WDC and he's done little to prove that. Many people were saying this at the latter stages of last season, Brazil surprised many people, but its the exception and not the norm. Vettel was a far better racer, but had mechincal issues. Jenson got the WDC exactly how you're meant to, winning races and picking up pts... you cant knock that, but IMO its the weakest WDC winner i can recall for a long time (i've watched since late 80's) but again... not his fault, he raced, won, and did so without controversy.

As I said in one of the posts above. In Bahrain, he was stuck behind Michael Schumacher. Even Lewis, despite his brilliance at making passes, found it impossible to pass a Mercedes engined cars in normal dry condition. So how does Jenson failure to do the same thing make him suddenly a lot worse~?

FYI, Lewis was stuck behind Rosberg in the opening stint at Bahrain, only got the position via the pit stops. And Lewis was stuck behind the Force India at Malaysia.

And were you watching the same season I watched last season~? Havn't got the stats on me cos I ain't bored enough to count it. But no, if the car in front has KERS, it means it can pull away in the straight, which made it impossible to pass. Remember Vettel looking at a Ferrari diffuser for the whole race at Barcelona, or how Fisichella couldn't pass Kimi at Spa despite being able to lap quicker~? Button certainly didn't "win from the front" at Bahrain as far as I could recall (that track that's utterly boring this season, the one where no one could pass any body), Lewis got in front of him at the start thanks to his KERS, but Button got it back a lap or two later.

So if I'm trying to apply your theory, oh no, Lewis PROVED that he couldn't pass a Force India... how crap is that~?

What is it with all the Lewis is better at overtaking than Jenson bullshit in this thread?

I really don't see how it matters that much as Jenson is leading the WDC whereas Lewis isn't. Jenson uses his initiative whereas Lewis just relies on the team to make the decisions for him. Then when they get it wrong he goes off in a huff and mouths off to the media.

Surely he can override the decision to come into the pits, since he is technically driving the car if I'm correct? That's where Jenson comes into a league of his own, he uses his own initiative and pits when the conditions are right.

I'll agree that Lewis is probably a better Racer, but what would you want a consistent racer who is always there or thereabouts or one who is fast but is not as consistent. That sentence reminds me a bit of the Red Bull situation this year. A extremely fast but un-reliable car. A bit like Hamilton

I know I'm going to get slagged off for this but oh well, that's life. We're all entitled to our own opinions.

Quote from wild :

What is it with all the Lewis is better at overtaking than Jenson bullshit in this thread?

I really don't see how it matters that much as Jenson is leading the WDC whereas Lewis isn't. Jenson uses his initiative whereas Lewis just relies on the team to make the decisions for him. Then when they get it wrong he goes off in a huff and mouths off to the media.

Surely he can override the decision to come into the pits, since he is technically driving the car if I'm correct? That's where Jenson comes into a league of his own, he uses his own initiative and pits when the conditions are right.

I'll agree that Lewis is probably a better Racer, but what would you want a consistent racer who is always there or thereabouts or one who is fast but is not as consistent. That sentence reminds me a bit of the Red Bull situation this year. A extremely fast but un-reliable car. A bit like Hamilton

I know I'm going to get slagged off for this but oh well, that's life. We're all entitled to our own opinions.

A racer is more exciting to watch for us F1 fans, but it won't necessarily win him races~

And at the end of the race, it's winning the race that's ultimately the most important isn't it. While at the end of the season, it's leading the championship standing that's the most important.

Button is proven to be capable of doing the two. Where as Lewis... to say it simply, he should have and could have been a double world champion, but he managed to throw one away. No doubt he's exceptionally quick through...

Quote from JCTK :

As I said in one of the posts above. In Bahrain, he was stuck behind Michael Schumacher. Even Lewis, despite his brilliance at making passes, found it impossible to pass a Mercedes engined cars in normal dry condition. So how does Jenson failure to do the same thing make him suddenly a lot worse~?

FYI, Lewis was stuck behind Rosberg in the opening stint at Bahrain, only got the position via the pit stops. And Lewis was stuck behind the Force India at Malaysia.

And were you watching the same season I watched last season~? Havn't got the stats on me cos I ain't bored enough to count it. But no, if the car in front has KERS, it means it can pull away in the straight, which made it impossible to pass. Remember Vettel looking at a Ferrari diffuser for the whole race at Barcelona, or how Fisichella couldn't pass Kimi at Spa despite being able to lap quicker~? Button certainly didn't "win from the front" at Bahrain as far as I could recall (that track that's utterly boring this season, the one where no one could pass any body), Lewis got in front of him at the start thanks to his KERS, but Button got it back a lap or two later.

So if I'm trying to apply your theory, oh no, Lewis PROVED that he couldn't pass a Force India... how crap is that~?

button didnt win in bahrain period :P

lewis needs backbone...

he does what team says.

for instance in china he knew his tyre was bald, he shoulda been like, "im coming in this lap wether you like it or not these tyres aint gonna last, so get prepared"

then im sure he woulda been able to come in

Quote from wild :

Surely he can override the decision to come into the pits, since he is technically driving the car if I'm correct? That's where Jenson comes into a league of his own, he uses his own initiative and pits when the conditions are right.

I wouldn't say different league! He blew it in Malaysia trying to be smart (kinda proving it's just guess work). Lewis certainly needs to develop his decision making skills though.

Quote from JPeace :

you cannot blame lewis for having a car with faults. In brazil 2007, the car went into a false neutral, nothing the driver can do to stop it. And then in china, the team made him stay out so long his tyre went down onto the canvas. Neither incidents his fault, therefore he didnt throw it away, the team did.

I didn't blame him for Brazil... but for China...

Lewis is the one in the car, the one that should have could have told the team the tyres are gone and required a pitstop, after being the one that weared the tyres down pushing hard up front, and ultimately, the one that throwed it into the gravel...

I lol at the fools comparing overtakes considering the only race where Button was at the back was Malaysia and he still got 8th after pitting early.

I think Hamilton has the raw speed, and I also think Hamilton would be unlucky not to finish the season with more points then Button, but Button just seems to more coordinated.

Quote from JPeace :

you cannot blame lewis for having a car with faults. In brazil 2007, the car went into a false neutral, nothing the driver can do to stop it. And then in china, the team made him stay out so long his tyre went down onto the canvas. Neither incidents his fault, therefore he didnt throw it away, the team did.

Didn't he hit the N button on the steering wheel or was it just a massive coincidence that as he pressed a button the car jumped into neutrals?

I think Lewis has drove great this season, very entertaining, I'm still nowhere near his biggest fan but at least he's giving us some entertainment.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

I appreciate all forms of motorsport, but you have to enjoy it, Jensons driving alone doesn't bring me any enjoyment, how can you get excited about how smooth he is? "look dad, look how smooth Jenson is, go Jenson". No.

You are probably watching the wrong sport, go to rallying if on absolute speed and precision on tarmac isn't your thing.

How am i watching the wrong sport? Like i said i can appreciate the advantages his driving style gives. The guy can save tyres and make a few good decisions (one being quite lucky). He doesn't look on the absolute limit of the car like Lewis does, i don't understand how you can prefer Button as a driver to Lewis i really don't. Maybe i'll appreciate it more after a while as he has grown on me a little this year. I know who i'd rather have chasing me down if i was an F1 driver.

EDIT: He doesn't have the speed though does he? He has what has always been taught to be the best driving style but still isn't the fastest. Rallying doesn't do anything for me really either tbh.

Hamilton seems faster cos he always prefer the more aggressive strategy, pit early and drive the hell out of a new set of tires, while button would be in front nursing his older tires while doing a second off Lewis's pace, does it make him slow? Not really, as that is the pace he should be running to win races.

The fastest way to drive isn't always oversteery and sideways.

If qualifying is the test of ultimate speed, then so far it's Button 3-Lewis 1.

And the last thing I know was that in identical cars, on a semi wet track, with similiarly conditioned tires Jenson pulled out a gap to Lewis, head to head.

I don't know am I exactly prefering Button over Lewis, actually the biggest upside of Button for me is that he is currently keeping Lewis Humble in a Mclaren, something that even Alonso cannot convincingly do, and I know I much prefer Alonso over these two, so there's respect for such performance when everyone expect Button to just fade away.

If you go by the last race Hamilton had 2 extra pitstops, half a field of cars to pass and still ended up 2secs behind Button on the perfect stratergydon't forget Button also had clear air for half the race so his tyres will be better anyway.

I don't need to say more than that, and as you know Qualifying hasn't exactly been a straight fight, so we'll see for the rest of the season, i know who i'd put my money on. BTW Hamilton isn't some lout getting his arse out every corner, he drives with precision and feels for where the grip is, i still think he can make his tyres last as good as the rest if he wanted to but hasn't been on the right stratergy or in the right position to do so yet.

The best comparison i can think of right now is Lewis is Messi, Jenson is a penalty box whore.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

If you go by the last race Hamilton had 2 extra pitstops, half a field of cars to pass and still ended up 2secs behind Button on the perfect stratergy

With the Safety car cancelling 45secs of the gap between them........

My memory is pretty bad sometimes, shhh.

He still had alot of cars to overtake and Jenson had a clear air too.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

My memory is pretty bad sometimes, shhh.

He still had alot of cars to overtake and Jenson had a clear air too.

But he's the one that put himself so far back in the first place~

I'm not saying that's his mistake through, as obviously both Ferrari, both Red Bull, and a certain 7 times Champion, made the same decision~

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

He still had alot of cars to overtake and Jenson had a clear air too.

Hamilton did have to overtake alot of cars and yes he finished 2 seconds behind Button but Button drove the race he needed. Why push for a 40 - 50 second lead when you will be taking life out of your tyres and you don't need too. Also I suspect that somewhere towards the end of the race both Button and Hamilton were told to hold position and not race, therefore Button could cruise comfortabley knowing he wasn't going to be passed.

When hustling a car I do think Hamilton is quicker, Button doesn't seem to have it in him to do that. If both having a good day then over one lap I think Hamilton would still be quicker (though I know qualifying proves the opposite but this is just my opinion.) Over the race distance though, with Button being better on his tyres then I think Button is probably the quickest.

Quote from JJ72 :

With the Safety car cancelling 45secs of the gap between them........

Though you have to admit, by the time Jenson had stopped the pack almost dead, sent Lewis off the road trying to avoid the damn stopped cars, the gap must have shot back up quite quickly...

Jenson hasn't had any proper battles with anyone yet, where as that's all Lewis has been doing, always in the dirty air and on the dirty parts of the track, which obviously asks far more of the tyres.

If Formula 1 would still have its 2009 point system, the drivers and teams championship would have looked like this:
Drivers Championship
Jenson Button : 23
Nico Rosberg : 20
Fernando Alonso : 20
Lewis Hamilton : 20
Sebastian Vettel : 18
Robert Kubica : 17
Felipe Massa : 16
Mark Webber : 10
Adrian Sutil : 4
Michael Schumacher: 3
Vitantonio Liuzzi : 2
Vitaly Petrov : 2
Rubens Barrichello: 1


Teams Championship
Mclaren : 43
Ferrari : 37
RBR : 33
Mercedes : 23
Renault : 13
Force India: 6
Williams : 1
(Calculated by Arox123)
Some positions have changed, but not much.
What is your point of view by the changes in the point system?
good or bad?

may be alter the system so it rewards the first 12 cars, effectively you have to finish in the thop half of the field to score, just don't end up with a points system which like NASCAR's results in huge points totals, it's a hell of a lot easier to tell instinctively if someone is close to the the leader if they are 15 points away rather than 527 points away

Quote from rockclan :

Some positions have changed, but not much.
What is your point of view by the changes in the point system?
good or bad?

it has been said countless times before and your caluclation there will bring the point home to even the more mathematically ungifted person

effectively there has hardly been any change to the point system at all
the relative difference in points is more or less the same as it was before and the point have simply been increased over the board to allow awarding points for lower finishes (which overall doesnt matter much in the final result)
second place has been demoted a little from 80% to 72% which is a good thing but still not back to the 60% it used to be so winning a race is still devalued a lot compared to the early 90s

Quote from Shotglass :

it has been said countless times before and your caluclation there will bring the point home to even the more mathematically ungifted person

effectively there has hardly been any change to the point system at all
the relative difference in points is more or less the same as it was before and the point have simply been increased over the board to allow awarding points for lower finishes (which overall doesnt matter much in the final result)
second place has been demoted a little from 80% to 72% which is a good thing but still not back to the 60% it used to be so winning a race is still devalued a lot compared to the early 90s

I like the way the points system was in the 90s, 2nd + 3rd equal the number of points for the winner, so basically when a team won a race, no other team could score more points than you.

Hamilton is disappointing me, he seems to have lost something he had in his first year,
I don't think the car can be that bad, he's had a few good moments but Vettel is seriously destroying everyone, whether it's his car or not I don't know, hopefully Schumi shows his real talent soon as well because I don't think he would of came back if he didn't think he could win, and it's not like he came back for money since I don't think he's hard up for cash.

I think the main problem is the fact he can't save his tyres very well, and the difference is Jenson is smooth and can make them last for years which is why he is where he is.