Quote from joeynuggetz :

On the other hand, last time I had my wife try and play a sim with FF, she asked me if I couldn't turn off the feature that's moving the wheel for her :-)

Since she is a completely unbiased FF "tester", then obviously the FFB isn't very realistic.

Quote from steve :

To bad that the feeling of "understeer" is not programmed into the effects.

Are any 'effects' programmed into the LFS FF? My understanding is that the FF is generated directly from the forces in the underlying physics model and does not use canned effects that are triggered once the car enters into a certain state.

Quote from jtw62074 :

I don't use FF either very often, even though I've got the red Momo. I just use the self centering most of the time. I can feel what the car is doing purely visually and often forget in our physics discussions that a lot of (most?) people are using FF, which has the potential of confusing what's happening.

In any sim, not just LFS, the FF quality can really change the impression of what's happening. You could have a perfect tire and physics model and all that, but if the FF isn't up to par or done properly or lags or anything like that, people will think the physics model is somehow wrong because the car doesn't feel right. So you'd get the FF guys saying the sim stinks while the non-FF guys that go purely visually and/or with sound cues saying it feels very much like the real thing.

RC racers frequently talk about how the car "feels" even though they have no FF at all and are of course not sitting in the car. They're 50 feet away on top of a driver's stand but can feel when the car gets loose or is pushing and so on, and will come in to make tiny setup changes to improve the handling. Purely visual and of course absolutely realistic since, well, it's real

Funny that a lot of main critics and observers of physics aren't using FF

Quote from BuddhaBing :

My understanding is that the FF is generated directly from the forces in the underlying physics model and does not use canned effects that are triggered once the car enters into a certain state.

That's the way it works.

I use FF because it makes the feeling closer to my experience of race-cars (yes, I did have some under my mercy). But of course the current FF doesn't feel anything like the aided steering you find in all modern cars. That may also be the reason why some people find it strange.

Oh, and btw:
Someone mentioned that too much resistance leads to errors in longer races. That is, to say it frankly, outright wrong. I don't even think I need to explain why when I only slightly point towards real race cars.

Vain

Well FF in LFS is quite a huge difference to FF in real races. In real races I would prefer resistance. But then in real cars even the way I sit is different than in front of a PC. There are forces pushing you left and right in corners and a very very easy going wheel would be really dangerous.

I just talked about LFS and my experience there. I found FF more disturbing in long races than helpfull.

Ah here the correct quote of Walter Röhrl :

"Wenn ich das schon höre: Das muss man im Hintern spüren.... So ein Schmarrn, wenn du was im Hintern spürst ist's nämlich vorbei, denn dann bist du schon längst runter von der Straße."

Quote from Vain :

That's the way it works.

I use FF because it makes the feeling closer to my experience of race-cars (yes, I did have some under my mercy). But of course the current FF doesn't feel anything like the aided steering you find in all modern cars. That may also be the reason why some people find it strange.

Oh, and btw:
Someone mentioned that too much resistance leads to errors in longer races. That is, to say it frankly, outright wrong. I don't even think I need to explain why when I only slightly point towards real race cars.

Vain

I think Vain has this right as to why it feels different, alot of cars have power assisted steering which takes away alot of the feedback to the driver, some cars, like Saturns, actually run FF for their steering and do it electrically, just like a Sim racing wheel.

I agree here, having FF on long races might make you tired in the beginning, but if your physically fit enough it won't bother you. ( I run multiple hours with my FF at 115% with no problems) Though I do goto bed a little tight in the shoulders, but thats how I want it =P

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

I remember when I first showed my father a replay in LFS, he was astounded.

Not to argue with you, BBT, but I remember being pretty astounded when I first saw a Gran Turismo replay on the PS1. It's all relative to what you've seen previously, isn't it?

Or perhaps your point is that your dad had relevant real-world experience.

Quote from jtr99 :

Not to argue with you, BBT, but I remember being pretty astounded when I first saw a Gran Turismo replay on the PS1. It's all relative to what you've seen previously, isn't it?

Or perhaps your point is that your dad had relevant real-world experience.

I think he meant real world experience.

RIP2004
It was probably disturbing because you were becoming tired and making mistakes without realizing it.

:Edit: I added Aston Cadet REV results to show that even with FF you can have very good results on long races. If anyone wants the replay I can post on my team forum(too big for here)

No it just feels strange to me I think it's also a question of taste, as it is never near to real feedback IRL.

In a real car you feel a lot more. And it's just strange to have just one very very small component of it (the wheel) and even this component feels fake in comparision to the real thing.
And I think it helps, if you know the reactions of the car just because of your experience without feeling them through the FF

In real life steering gets lighter when a RWD loses traction, not so much in FWD, but its still there. LFS FF does none of that. Netkar still takes the cake.

Quote from RIP2004 :

No it just feels strange to me I think it's also a question of taste, as it is never near to real feedback IRL.

In a real car you feel a lot more. And it's just strange to have just one very very small component of it (the wheel) and even this component feels fake in comparision to the real thing.
And I think it helps, if you know the reactions of the car just because of your experience without feeling them through the FF

That could be possible I donno. If you focus on just wheel aspect and not the forces exerted on your body LFS if fairly close. The G'Forces make a difference on how you think the wheel is reacting, especally when you have a car that doesn't have a race seat and your using the wheel to stay in place inside the car.

Quote from Dethred :

In real life steering gets lighter when a RWD loses traction, not so much in FWD, but its still there. LFS FF does none of that. Netkar still takes the cake.

Turn your forces up, it's there, I feel it in my wheel.

Quote from Dethred :

In real life steering gets lighter when a RWD loses traction, not so much in FWD, but its still there. LFS FF does none of that. Netkar still takes the cake.

Steering doesn't get lighter when RWD looses traction. The front wheels will try to continue in the direction of travel while the rear starts to spin around. That means the forces on the front wheels will cause the steering to countersteer as the fronts try to stay in the direction of travel. In LFS, when I get the back end loose, I often let go of the wheel with one hand to let the countersteering take care of itself. I only guide it with the hand I leave on the wheel. Most of the countersteering comes from the forces put on the front wheels, which is what happens IRL as well.

Quote from mrodgers :

when I get the back end loose, I often let go of the wheel with one hand to let the countersteering take care of itself.

Completely off topic, but wasn't there an online video ad for BMW that featured some great stunt driving on city streets, including a nice shot of the driver with both hands off the wheel doing exactly this, i.e., powering out of a corner and letting the front wheels do the counter-steering all by themselves. Don't know who the real driver was, but the actor playing the driver was Clive Owen.


And on another point: I for one find it slightly disturbing that someone as fast as Biggie doesn't use FFB. It must be true, I suppose, that if you can get the necessary feedback to your brain through other channels (vision and sound being the obvious ones) then not having a wheel that tries to move around in your hands means that you can be more precise and faster in your control inputs. Those of us who sit in front of our PCs sweatily grappling with high FFB settings may be having a marginally more realistic experience, but it's not clear that the end result is more precise placement of the car.

Quote from jtr99 :

And on another point: I for one find it slightly disturbing that someone as fast as Biggie doesn't use FFB. It must be true, I suppose, that if you can get the necessary feedback to your brain through other channels (vision and sound being the obvious ones) then not having a wheel that tries to move around in your hands means that you can be more precise and faster in your control inputs. Those of us who sit in front of our PCs sweatily grappling with high FFB settings may be having a marginally more realistic experience, but it's not clear that the end result is more precise placement of the car.

Well put.
It seems that there may be disparity between the 100% realistic "experience" and the ability to be perfectly quick, which demands pefect precision. This precision would be far far more difficult to acheive IRL than it would be behind your PC, despite all the visceral feedback and sensory input of real life. I think you've hit something very important here.

Working the same logic in reverse, this is why the math must be the proving ground for a sim, and I'm starting to think that RL "experience" isn't necessarily condusive to judgement of a sim. Many people in other threads are insisting that empirical data is wrong (!) based on their "experience", which is a far to subjective meter. This pretty much sums up why comparing lap times at real tracks in real cars is essentially irrelevant. I am really glad LFS's content is ficticious.

I think that if you're playing with FF off, then it's close to cheating becuase you do have that advantage of just being able to easily turn the wheel. People that use FF are at the mercy of what the physics engine and FF is telling them and they re-act accordingly. Just my opinion. If were to play without FF, it would see as if I'm just moving a bunch of pixels around the screen and not really coming close to racing.

Took the words right out of my mouth

Must admit, I am a bit suprised at the number of people who don't want to use it.

There is another advantage for people not using FFB... damage! Try to drive a damaged suspension with or without FFB and you'll see.

p.s. also riding over curbs (FE Green anyone?) is easier if you don't have to "fight" the wheel...

Quote from biggie :

Believe it or not, I've always been playing LFS without FF. I could hardly imagine turning FF on because you'd have to work harder to turn the wheel and so your reaction time increases.
Personally, I really don't need the feedback through the wheel as I get most of my feeling for the car from the sound. Without sound, I could hardly drive at all (tried it before). I think the implementation of sound in LFS is quite generous in terms of feedback because the tire scrubbing sound gives you a very clear indication of when you're just about to exceed the limit of cohesion.

Do you think most of the WR holders use no FF? From what I've read here I would think so.
Maybe we should have two sets of WR's, with FF and without.

Quote from DaveWS :

I think that the force feedback in LFS is very realistic compared with delayed FFB in ISI sims. There is only a very small delay with the feedback, and it just always feels right. I can quite happily feel the car enough without FFB, but you don't feel 'connected' to whats happening.

And for people to say that FFB is too tiring, illepall , I am barely 9 stone, and don't find it that difficult with it at 100% and a Microsoft sidewinder ffb.

Karting for example is miles more tiring IRL. No steering resistance reduces realism people!!

LOL. Karting is brutal compared to LFS

Funny comment about not using FFB Cheating, that's kind of true actually. Wierd but true.

One thing that seems to increase the connection (for me at least) is to increase the FFB steps to 256 in the config file.

Quote from MARSH2a :

Do you think most of the WR holders use no FF? From what I've read here I would think so.
Maybe we should have too sets of WR's, with FF and without.

I totally agree, but that would be so difficult, because people could turn off the FFB on the wheel etc, rather than in-game.

I use FF at around 100% in both CP and LFS. Yes, if you really practice and learn the queues it might be possible to be faster than without because you don't have to fight the wheel and so you can be more delicate with your input BUT its far more fun with FF.

I do find it strange though that people who are picking the bigest holes in the LFS physics dont use FF. IRL if the rear on your car steps the steering wheel will track the front wheels and so you have to fight the steering at times. You have the ability to get that feeling in LFS but don't?

Give FF a REAL try for a week or so and do NOT play a sim unless it is enabled. Take the time to learn the information it gives you. After the week disable it and then say you dont miss it.

yeah... with ff there are times when the wheel will fight you realisticly.. say if you hit a curb or something.. and without ffb you dont have to worry about correctling the steering. so inthat sense no ffb is less realistic

Quote from joeynuggetz :

I think that if you're playing with FF off, then it's close to cheating becuase you do have that advantage of just being able to easily turn the wheel. People that use FF are at the mercy of what the physics engine and FF is telling them and they re-act accordingly. Just my opinion. If were to play without FF, it would see as if I'm just moving a bunch of pixels around the screen and not really coming close to racing.

I'd disagree. It would be very easy to get rid of the steering feedback in a real car. Engineers don't do it because the feedback actually makes it easier to drive at the limit.
My point is, people who turn off FF are turning off something that is supposed to _assist_ you to be faster, not handicap you in the name of reaslism. If it does not work that way, then it's obviously not terribly realistic, so why would leaving it on be the "right" thing to do?

At this stage there just isn't any hardware that would be suitable to simulate the steering feel of a real car, so I don't see a point in putting up with the (unrealistic) downsides that come with "toy-level" FF, like the fragility and slop of a bunch of plastic cogs and the slow movements and high rotational inertia of a tiny electric motor with a 50:1 gear reduction.

Quote from bal00 :

At this stage there just isn't any hardware that would be suitable to simulate the steering feel of a real car, so I don't see a point in putting up with the (unrealistic) downsides that come with "toy-level" FF, like the fragility and slop of a bunch of plastic cogs and the slow movements and high rotational inertia of a tiny electric motor with a 50:1 gear reduction.

hmmm, must be using a different wheel to me then. My DFP does not feel like that at all.