Hey, no worries.

Btw, I posted the same poll on another board I frequent and it generated a similar/related discussion: http://forums.hipinion.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16884

Quote from amp88 :

They are almost certainly more experienced and more practised in debating on religion (and the currently used definitions of words surrounding this debate) than you are.

while that may or may not be the case id like to see some credentials first (and making hundreds of episodes of some internet talkshow no ones ever heard of doesnt count)

Quote :

Yes, the roots of the word "gnostic" are with the teaching of a particular ideology, but that does not mean that is how the word is currently used by the majority of society today. The following definition is one which I think is apt and comes from Princeton:

as far as i can tell the word isnt ever used at all
for that matter i certainly have never heard it being used as an adjective before and only ever heard it used or used it myself as a noun describing someone who believes in gnosticism

maybe thats just because i dont follow these atheist self help channels you seem to know a lot about judging by how many links you were able to come up
also to me it doesnt seem like anyone outside of the english speaking world and america in particular even cares about the whole idiotic religion vs atheism debate

Quote :

So, someone who claims to be a gnostic is saying they have knowledge (not belief) about spiritual things. Conversely, an agnostic is someone who believes it's impossible for them to have knowledge of spiritual things.

someone who calls himself a gnostic is someone who believes is gnosticism as none of the dictionaries you linked to offers a different meaning for gnostic as a noun

Quote from amp88 :

Is gnostic the opposite of agnostic?

technically youd exepct it to be
but the fact of the matter is that agnosticism is a relatively new word coined well after gnosticism and gnostic were terms describing a blief system and despite having the negative prefix actually has no relation whatsoever to the belief system

It's funny how closely the curve on the other board matches this one, too, with the exception of the pantheists.

And you telling someone to f*ck himself.

Quote from Shotglass :

as far as i can tell the word isnt ever used at all
for that matter i certainly have never heard it being used as an adjective before and only ever heard it used or used it myself as a noun describing someone who believes in gnosticism

Apart from being defined on 5 of the most popular online dictionaries?

Quote from Shotglass :

maybe thats just because i dont follow these atheist self help channels you seem to know a lot about judging by how many links you were able to come up

Yeah, I watch The Atheist Experience from time to time because I find it interesting. They often reference websites during their broadcasts and I happened to remember one. It's not a massive amount though...2 sites.

Quote from Shotglass :

also to me it doesnt seem like anyone outside of the english speaking world and america in particular even cares about the whole idiotic religion vs atheism debate

Yeah, it depends where you live. When you have a notionally secular state forcing taxpayers to foot the bill for the Pope's visit and allowing religious pressure groups to influence their policy decisions the "religion vs atheism" debate becomes a bit more important.

Quote from zeugnimod :

And you telling someone to f*ck himself.

Quote from amp88 :

Apart from being defined on 5 of the most popular online dictionaries?

im sure theres plenty of words and secondary meanings on these dictionaries that i as a non native speaker havent ever heard of because they just arent used by anyone

Quote :

Yeah, it depends where you live. When you have a notionally secular state forcing taxpayers to foot the bill for the Pope's visit and allowing religious pressure groups to influence their policy decisions the "religion vs atheism" debate becomes a bit more important.

when you live in a country that through your taxes finances half of europe some random visit of the pope is rightfully considered pocket change

Quote from Shotglass :

im sure theres plenty of words and secondary meanings on these dictionaries that i as a non native speaker havent ever heard of because they just arent used by anyone

<Pot, Kettle, Black comment>

Your ignorance is not my problem when it comes to words that are the first definition of words in 5 of the most popular online dictionaries. Additionally, they are often used in terms of religious debate because they are useful and convey a reasonable amount of useful information in a short period of time. That is, after all, the intention of words.

Quote from Shotglass :

when you live in a country that through your taxes finances half of europe some random visit of the pope is rightfully considered pocket change

There's a difference between the pyramid scheme EU finances and a secular government using taxpayer money to fund a religious trip. The actual amounts aren't what's at question here, it's the principle. Also, the amount is substantial when taken into the context of what a few million pounds could do to the local area if it weren't use to publicise the catholic church.

Quote from amp88 :

Your ignorance is not my problem when it comes to words that are the first definition of words in 5 of the most popular online dictionaries.

historically the meaning of gnostic was as a noun meaning someone who believes in gnosticism and that is still the only valid meaning for the word as a noun (which you apparently were unaware of)
inventing new meaning for it that dont mesh with the already well established meaning of eg gnosticism completely defies the purpose of language as a universal coherent means of communication

Quote :

There's a difference between the pyramid scheme EU finances and a secular government using taxpayer money to fund a religious trip. The actual amounts aren't what's at question here, it's the principle. Also, the amount is substantial when taken into the context of what a few million pounds could do to the local area if it weren't use to publicise the catholic church.

no the amounts are very relevant
you sound like itrepid in complaining about miniscule amounts of money in a countries budget
also as for principles most people seem to agree that the best way to deal with any matters religion is to ignore them and wait for them to go away on their own as they are unquestionably about to

I think most Britons are upset about the popes visit as there is growing evidence that he has been part of an international criminal conspiracy to cover-up child rape. The amount of money is not relevant, why should we pay a single penny to allow this man to come here? I have signed the petition to have the pope arrested at Heathrow airport. Sadly as he is a religious leader he is exempted from the law.

Quote from Shotglass :

historically the meaning of gnostic was as a noun meaning someone who believes in gnosticism and that is still the only valid meaning for the word as a noun (which you apparently were unaware of)
inventing new meaning for it that dont mesh with the already well established meaning of eg gnosticism completely defies the purpose of language as a universal coherent means of communication

So...the dictionaries are in a conspiracy now? They got together and decided to just create a new definition for a word as a bit of fun? You accuse me of sounding like Intrepid, but I reckon you should take a look in the mirror with that one. Languages evolve.

Quote from Shotglass :

no the amounts are very relevant
you sound like itrepid in complaining about miniscule amounts of money in a countries budget

The visit is already estimated to cost £12m (which is already 50% over the previous estimation). I agree, £12m is not a lot out of the budget, however, there are better uses for it that would benefit everyone in the community, not just a small section of it.

Quote from Shotglass :

also as for principles most people seem to agree that the best way to deal with any matters religion is to ignore them and wait for them to go away on their own as they are unquestionably about to

Again, that depends on where you are. If you're in a country where people's civil liberties are infringed upon by religious groups (who still hold a lot of power in the UK despite their falling numbers) the situation is worse than if you live in a largely secular country that has only a small problem with religion.

Atheist

BTW YES YES YES 1000th post o/ PARTY!!!!

Quote from Timo1992 :

Atheist

BTW YES YES YES 1000th post o/ PARTY!!!!

Quote from amp88 :

So...the dictionaries are in a conspiracy now? They got together and decided to just create a new definition for a word as a bit of fun? You accuse me of sounding like Intrepid, but I reckon you should take a look in the mirror with that one. Languages evolve.

conspiracy? what are you smoking?
yes languages evolve but theres a difference between inventing completely new meanings for existing words and inventing new words entirely
also since youre such a fan of language evolution i suppose youll be fine with all the major dictionaries adding text speak as correct english within the next few years?

Quote :

Again, that depends on where you are. If you're in a country where people's civil liberties are infringed upon by religious groups (who still hold a lot of power in the UK despite their falling numbers) the situation is worse than if you live in a largely secular country that has only a small problem with religion.

how exactly do you think these countries became secular in the first place? (keep in mind eg germany and sweden spent 30 years waging war over whos imaginary friend is the right one)
certainly didnt involve petty bickering about visits from the pope

Is anyone here a Scientologist?

Quote from wsinda :

Later I realised that I should only look at the factual claims. Definitions that include any factual, testable claims (e.g. the earth was created 6000 years ago, god observes us and actively interferes with the world) have failed with the advance of our knowledge. There's not a shred of evidence.

But have you consider the option that "god" intentionally made up these stories to fool you on purpose, that it is all a deliberate scam to separate those who seeks the truth, and those who simply follows?

Disproving the existence of a human definition of god does not disprove the existence of god, but then again, if it does not exist as in our definition, is it god anyway.

I was christened as a little boy, but I do not belong to any religion, I do not not go to Church or anything like that, and I do not believe in Gods of any sort. I therefore class myself as an Atheist.

I must ask though, what is your guys opinion on Karma? Is it classed as a religion or just a superficial belief? I personally do believe in Karma, and that if you continue to do bad things, they will eventually catch up to you and bite you in the ass, figuratively speaking.

didn't put anything, mostly because I don't know what to classify me as...more than one sorta fits... someone help? or point out discrepancies in my beliefs?

Catholic born and raised. Certainly not Catholic either in practice or true belief. When I do go to mass with my family, I will not say large portions of the mass because they conflict with my views, and I refuse to say things that I do not believe in because saying them means I think they are true. Believe in God in the sense that there is a higher power of some kind somewhere out there. Don't think he/she/it/them is active in our lives per se. Think every religion is sorta right in the sense that they share similar moral teachings, and I think they all are about the same 'God' (to put it simply). Hope for an afterlife, but don't count on it. Believe in rituals and their power and meaning, but reject most organized religions. I think most organized religions are a power play designed to blind the people and put the corrupt 'authority' in control.

I don't pretend to know what form a 'God' takes, but when I think I have felt a higher power/s or state/s of consciousness it's in different things. Music, nature, running, artistic endeavours, love, etc. Not really active in it, but maybe accessed by different things?

I believe in science, and that it is to be used to help us further understand how the universe works, and ultimately hopefully lead to something greater for humanity. I believe we hold the keys to our success and our destruction as a whole, and through science we will understand, when we are ready. I also believe a lot of people are dickheads.

but I don't know for sure, and I don't rule anything out. So by the definitions next to the choices, that is parts of Agnostic, Deist, Pluralist, and Syncretist, mixed with parts of humanism and god (HA!) knows what else. Basically, I am my own religion unto myself. I probably didn't explain everything exactly perfect. Whatever

Quote from RiseAgainstMe! :

Hope for an afterlife, but don't count on it.

See, now this is where I'm messed up.

As I said above, I do not believe in there being any God of sorts, but I do believe that there is something out there that watches your actions, and then decides to consequences to go with those actions, be it good or bad. I have no thoughts on whether this "thing" is an object or not. All I can explain is that I think there must be something there.

The same goes for when we die. It's a touchy subject, and one that many people do not seem to enjoy discussing. As for me, I'm fascinated by it. I don't mean this in a sadistic sense, but more in a "what's going to happen" way. Me, You, and every single person in this world are chasing dreams and goals. We all want the perfect life, and will sometimes stop at absolutely nothing to get it, even if it means taking risks. Thinking about this sometimes makes me a little sad, and sometimes annoyed, because life is fun and I have no doubts about that, but it also seems very cruel. Think about it. We are born into a world where at some point in our life (and usually many times), we are guaranteed to suffer many horrible emotions and feelings, like fear, pain, grief and anger. We then work non-stop, every day, to make a life of our own and for our kids, and there kids, etc. It just feels cruel for us as Human beings to do all this, only for it inevitably ended at some point in our lives, and this specific point is unavoidable and one which we cannot control. It just seems ironic how almost everything in our life is controllable to a degree, and yet we cannot control our fate.

This then brings me onto another point. What is waiting for us when we die? I've heard many beliefs of what happens when we are knocking on deaths door, some of which I find ridiculous, but I respect peoples beliefs and therefore do not try to sway them into my own. Personally, I believe there will be something there for us when we die. Maybe it will be a artificial life, one which is like your old life but all in a dream? That's what I like to believe anyhow.

Sorry if I sounded a little "dark" in that post. I really do have a lust for life and I love my own. It's just sometimes, my mind really wanders off, and I find myself day dreaming about this kind of thing very intensely.

I'm pretty sure that there is somekind of 'god' but I wouldn't call that thing or whatever it is god nor say that it would be somehow related to any religion at all.

Quote from Nathan_French_14 :

See, now this is where I'm messed up.... more stuff

That's sorta what I meant and I agree with a lot of things you say. I like the way you think. didn't sound dark, sounded curious, which is great. Without curiosity, we'd all still be living in the woods. Not that living in the woods is necessarily bad. I do enjoy discussing stuff like this .

I don't know what is after we die, maybe nothing, maybe something. I know what I hope is there, but we can't have everything we want, now can we? I do believe that there is something, but I'm not infallible like the pope Personally I like to believe that it's something a little like this life, but not exactly bound by our sense of reality and time. But this life is the only thing I know, so it's the thing I can imagine best. It could well be something that we can't even comprehend right now.

I think that people have to find a balance between having fun in life, and living a good life. The two are not mutually exclusive, and unfortunately too many people seem to forget this. I actually believe a lot of really religious people are going to be punished in an afterlife, which is a little ironic. Many of them are too quick to attack all outsiders.

You make a good conversation RAM. Your definitely the kind of guy I would love to have a beer with.

I totally agree about finding that perfect balance in life. At the moment, I'm quite contempt with my life. I have a fairly small family, with it consisting of my Girlfriend who lives with me, my Father, 2 Brothers and a Sister in-law. I work my butt off everyday to bring home the bacon (as does my partner of course) and try to make the best living I can for me and her, as well as trying to secure a decent future for any children we may have in the future. However, as much as I love my Job (and I do have fun. My cars are my fun. ), an opportunity for me and my girlfriend to move to Ireland has come, and so by Christmas this year, we shall be living there. It's a risk I've decided to take because if all goes well, then the business opportunity over there mean that potentially, we could be living a much more "comfortable" life with in the next 5 years. And yet, it also has the chance of going catastrophically wrong and me ending up much worse off. But that, is exactly what I think life is about, taking risks, and living every day of your life as if it is your last.

I'm a Buddhist. I was brought up in a Buddhist culture and I've adapted my life to the teachings of Buddha. Well, sort of. I dont "practise" Buddhism vigourously - I'm yet to attain that much control over my mind...

I do believe in karma. Basically, what you do is what you get returned (in this lifetime, or the next, or the next...) All our (intentional) actions have a result.

Quote :

Karma in Buddhism is the force that drives the cycle of suffering and rebirth for each being. Good, skillful deeds and bad, unskillful actions produce "seeds" in the mind which come to fruition either in this life or in a subsequent rebirth. The avoidance of unwholesome actions and the cultivation of positive actions is called śīla (from Sanskrit: "ethical conduct").

In Buddhism, karma specifically refers to those actions (of body, speech, and mind) that spring from mental intent, and which bring about a consequence (or fruit) or result . Every time a person acts there is some quality of intention at the base of the mind and it is that quality rather than the outward appearance of the action that determines its effect.

Link

When we die, I believe our souls (maybe not the correct term) travel from one being to another (human, animal, "preta" ghost-like state, + more - according to our karma). The cycle will continue till we attain nirvana (the mind is freed from its identity.)

Quote :

Nirvāna is meant specifically - as pertains gnosis - that which ends the identity of the mind with empirical phenomena. Doctrinally, Nibbāna is said of the mind which "no longer is coming (bhava) and going (vibhava)", but which has attained a status in perpetuity, whereby "liberation (vimutta) can be said".

Link

Attaining nirvana is the end to the endless suffering that we (our souls) endure during our lifetime(s).

(Getting there is the hardest bit.)

I'm quite surprised this thread hasn't derailed in any kind yet, as discussions on religion tend to quite fast, in any kind of environment or forum, since they attract people with somewhat hardcore/fanatic views, and those exist in any kind of belief system (except buddhism maybe, haven't met a fanatic buddhist yet :razz

Interesting read!

First I like to start with a question: Religion is the source of many of our problems, so why are we not teaching all religions in school?

Personal thoughts (engages only me):
When I was young(er) I have been interested in religions and I have been initiated in quite a few, my main problem with them is that they give you a reason to suffer quietly in this life because an hypothetical better one is around the corner, if we all stopped believing most would probably request to make ‘’heaven’’ on earth and that could be a problem for some. Also there seems to be a competition about god with market shares which makes it/him a product/commodity, no way a real god would accept this, it’s so strange.

For my part I always thought I was a believer, but I have been very ill in the 90’s and almost died a couples of times, the only thing that brought me back every time was a strong feeling that there was only this life and nothing behind it, so it became my reason to fight as hard as I could to make it as long as possible, it was not the easy way, so I realized that I had lost my faith because if I would have believed in heaven or in a continuation of some sort I would have signed for it immediately.

We use only a small portion of our brains, the biggest part of it is not fully under our control, so could it be that the god feeling is inside all of us, like in realistic dreams we could have the feeling of a superior presence around us, feels real but it isn’t…or maybe it is ….

God is a good way to explain what we don’t understand, that’s why science is the enemy because it reduces that considerably (3 main religions says that god created the world about 4000years ago and then we got prove that the dinosaurs walked the earth million years ago) , but still today many scientists find the hands of god behind things like the big bang and we are not close to explain the origin of this one ….

Food for the digital minded: maybe we are just a big program like the Sims and our pixels are the atoms or the subatomic particles, the programmer could be our god ( with all the problems on hearth now that would explain why angel Scawen had no time for our lfs update). (sorry for the joke, I couldn’t resist :shrug

I Also like the ancient cosmonauts theory which could explain many things, just us interpreting things we didn't understand with words we knew...

Anyway I think life is about choices and if you chose to believe or not and it works for you, we should all respect that!