Overtaking
(146 posts, started )
honey, u probably dont pass unless its 100% safe to do so, so u dont overtake much but when u do u dont crash!

this thread is aimed at people who attempt to pass but end up clipping the person infronts rear wheel then blaming for 'being turned in on'

so in reality, this thread dont really apply to u m8! u are a safe driver
Quote from flyby3d :I do agree with our general idea, but i think this point is where, sometimes, more attention is needed.

When i race with someone i know (or when i race in a League) i can follow VERY close and i'd rarely (if never) crash into someone braking unpredictably early...
...but if i'm in a public server and i find myself behind someone i've never seen racing before, i'll take my time (and space from) to see how he/she drives.
Public server have pilots of all experieces and abilities.
It's simply too dangerous for both to assume that the one i'm following (or overtaking) will take the correct and fastet line or brake at the "normal" braking points...

my 2c

exactly! it's too easy to say "you brake too early, it's your fault!" when it happens to me that someone brakes much early than i expect, i usually change line taking the outside and i avoid crash...that of course means that i lose time, of course i can keep my line, bump him out of the track, don't even say sorry and pass him and be happy...unfortunately, that's to me wrecking and being dirty, a behaviour that deserves black flag, but of course, until lfs will have black flags, people will take advantage of dirty racing Frown
Quote from ayrton senna 87 :honey, u probably dont pass unless its 100% safe to do so, so u dont overtake much but when u do u dont crash!

this thread is aimed at people who attempt to pass but end up clipping the person infronts rear wheel then blaming for 'being turned in on'

so in reality, this thread dont really apply to u m8! u are a safe driver

as i said i never raced with you guys, so my complaints are not really aimed at you, i just want to avoid that a too hard bahaviour finds it's justification.

i'm not as safe as i depict myself, because i do mistakes and i sometimes hit other with my mistakes, i only think i made a good experience on the old demo days on how to avoid banzai-crashers, with such experience i know that if the guy in front is much less skilled, he will not be able to be overtaken properly, in such cases more patience will save me to end the race prematurely Big grin

maybe i got the topic by the wrong side...maybe i'd better wait for such video before complaining more...Big grin
Quote from Honey :and i agree with that, but from all the posts that "justify" being "hard" it just reminds to me of too many fast guys that actually don't know how to race, i'm not telling not to dare or not to "close" the lines,, it happened to me to make a pas at full throttle at the fe green chicane (with mrt), just in the middle of the chicane, but it was safe to do so and not even a little touch! ...but most times i don't do it because 99% it's crash for sure!

saying "everywere is possible to pass" and " i close the line if i know he can break" is to me crash attitude, while the first sentence is right in principle, is also right that a smart guy knows that attempting a pass at certain corners in normal conditions, means crash!

if i pass at the inside and i'm entering corner faster, i will pass! because only a silly or a wrecker (IMO) will close no matter what just because i have still braking room, if i will find a guy with such bully attitude and he close no matter what, i will pass no matter what...that means 100% crash, so will make to let him end badly and me as less as possible, because if i do properly i pretend to pass! it's too easy to justify the silly attitude "i close no matter what" just by claiming to be a "hard to pass driver" to me is just a wrecker...

Well actually you can pass everywhere but as usual it requires a certain criteria in a way to make the pass. I've seen me pass someone on a flat out corner around the outside in karting because the guy clipped the kerb wrong in the corner before. Now I'd never have considered that as a passing place but when your racing you go for every opportunity you can no matter if it's the corner you `can't` pass on.

I'll try make you work as much as you can if you come up to pass me just like I would in real life. Hell I've been put on the grass by the Scottish Champion when I raced karts, I was so much quicker than her but she was driving very aggressively. Now at the time I was furious at what she did and her Dad came up and said to my Dad that she was in the wrong sort of thing but in the end positions reversed I'd have probably done something similar. Okay I'd have not put her on the grass like she did to me because I had the line but I wouldn't have made it easy. We still shook hands on our slowing down lap because the dicing made it so much more exciting than if we had "waited" for the right opportunity to pass.

I'd say a lot of the time I'm slightly more cautious in what I do in LFS than I'm in real life with regards to overtaking even though I can't get hurt in LFS.

IMO a lot of accidents are caused by people being too cautious while racing others. Starts of the races are the worst because some people just hit the brakes so early and violently, the best thing you can do if your going to brake early is brake gently. There are certain people I know from the public races that if I just show my nose along their rear wheels they'll dive out the way and let me past, which they shouldn't. I'm always prepared to get out of it because all I'm doing is making you look in your mirrors. The problem with a lot of people is they think that they can just show their nose down the inside and that's enough to make the pass. Yea okay we all make mistakes, I do it as well miss-judge the gap but it's what people say after wards is the real give away. Some people come out saying "You crashed me" "that was my line" etc but if you aren't pretty much along side you have no right to the line. If someone looks to have half a chance of passing me I'll acknowledge they are there and try think of a way to make it harder for them to pass but leave enough room for them to stay alongside me.

Keiran
ayrton senna 87 is always wrecking me, he is a bad driver that doesn't know how to overtake and defend properly his line :pillepall

Big grin
lol phlos!! i always say u are the only guy who i acutlaly cant help but hit! its coz if i let u get away im not quick enough to catch u again!

u gotta admit tho, the last few races weve had i havnt wrecked u Big grin
that one at BL GP was awesome Big grinBig grin
That message was full of contradictions and so is this thread. :spin:

Best thing to do is to race others as they race you.

We can all drive like psychos or drive with respect for each other, I'm adaptable. Big grin
Quote from flyby3d :I do agree with our general idea, but i think this point is where, sometimes, more attention is needed.

When i race with someone i know (or when i race in a League) i can follow VERY close and i'd rarely (if never) crash into someone braking unpredictably early...
...but if i'm in a public server and i find myself behind someone i've never seen racing before, i'll take my time (and space from) to see how he/she drives.
Public server have pilots of all experieces and abilities.
It's simply too dangerous for both to assume that the one i'm following (or overtaking) will take the correct and fastet line or brake at the "normal" braking points...

my 2c

SPOT ON!
Couldnt have said that any better, to assume everyone knows where and when to brake is sheer arrogance.

Its also arrogance to think ppl have the same setup and style to allow them to brake in exactly the manner time after time, i have raced karts for a few years and do know what you guys are saying but to say a kart turns in the same way as a sim being steered in my case by a gamepad is nuts.

Makes overtaking pretty random at times..
Surely it's just common sense. You just feel when it's a sensible move, and you can also just feel when someone is likely to turn into.

I can honestly say with people who I trust and race regularly on an LFS racetrack, I don't think I've ever had a racing accident caused by misjudgment.

We may have wrecked each other a couple of times mucking around but nothing else.

Just think, am I going to hit the guy if I try to pass. If yes don't, if not give it 110%. If you get it wrong it's then a mistake of judgment rather than technique.
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(thisnameistaken) DELETED by thisnameistaken
Quote from thisnameistaken :This thread seems to be chock full of willy-waving. So there are only two people in LFS who know how to overtake? *takes notes*

Baffled by that comment to be honest, of course people know how to overtake. I'm just putting my theory on it, on the board, because then someone, somewhere, might just read it and change their own philosophy. No willy waving involved :S
Good idea about the video. I got some very nice replay's here with much fighting, maybe I can make something soon.
i dont mean a video of 'nice fights' where drivers give each other room etc so they can carry on having a good race, i mean a vid where someone gets done and thats that, then a vid of the various things that can go wrong, like staying on the outside or not being commited enough!!
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(thisnameistaken) DELETED by thisnameistaken
Quote from thisnameistaken :It wasn't directed at you, Chris.

Ok, I thought it was after it being seeming written after you'd read my reply to the thread Smile

Quote :Actually having re-read a lot of the posts that bothered me, they don't sound half bad, so maybe it was just me getting the wrong end of the stick. At first it sounded like a couple of people who go karting talking about how people who don't go karting don't know anything.

I honestly don't believe that was the intention of those people involved. However I can understand why people with racing experience do get annoyed with those without. When they have been brought up in an environment full of people who know what they are doing, it's bound to be frustrating.

Quote :My 2p: Most of the drivers in LFS are still not confident enough in control of the car to go for risky overtaking moves. Either that, or they're not confident in the ability of the person they're overtaking. Personally, I'd rather finish races so if I'm passing someone who's a lot slower I'll wait until a corner where there's plenty of room rather than expecting them to have veteran karting skills and sticking it up the inside in a difficult section of track.

Yes, generally this is the case, I don't feel confident in many of the cars so I try not get involved in close racing at an early stage. It's just common sense.

Having said that there are sooooo many drivers around at the moment that seem to lack common sense. Some nights anything is possible. I've seen some stupid things recently.
I think this clip suits here pretty well. Who you think is guilty to the crash happened? The black car or the yellow one? The yellow is in front, he totally blocks the line way too late. But he is in front so he has the right to choose it. Offcourse both of the drivers didnt admit doing anything wrong, what you think? Did yellow try to ram the black of the track or was the black one to blaim?
Attached files
Movie.rar - 1.7 MB - 218 views
One thing we should remember ITS NOT REAL never will or can be.

Quote :Best thing to do is to race others as they race you

.

Yes I agree 100% with that but If I implemented it , it would end in a blood bath in some cases.
Smile
When would everyone feel its ok to make a pass attempt on the inside?.

1: ahead of the car on the racing line.
2: level with car.
3: half a car behind.
4: just enough behind to read the numberplate.

John
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(thisnameistaken) DELETED by thisnameistaken
Quote from thisnameistaken :Yeah. The hard part is figuring out whether they're learning or have no intention of learning. If they're communicative, that helps, but sometimes they don't speak English so even if they do want to talk about problems there might not be anyone they can discuss stuff with or ask for help. Dunno. Nature of the game though I suppose.

Many I feel have no intention of learning. What a waste of money and usernames Smile

The funniest thing I've seen (well it was funny to me) was a guy who couldn't speak English but had the bind... wtf, you are a *bleeping* cheat!

Figure that one out?
The problem that I see is that it takes two to tango. The passer and the passee (cool new words) have to work together to make it work.

If you jam the car down the inside, and you get alongside me, I recognize that I made a mistake, square up the corner and try to get you with exit speed. The classic re-overtake maneuver.

However, if I instead just take a wide line and push for all I am worth, we end up coming together on the exit, with me getting pushed off into the wall.

How do you know, as the overtaking driver, which kind of opponent you are facing? Public servers are not like a racing series where you get to know your opponents. So, I generally end up taking the conservative approach. I try to leave myself enough of a buffer to stay inside on the corner exit in case the guy I am overtaking tries to stay alongside.

I think that some of you are saying that this is an improper overtaking maneuver. That if I don't go in fully committed, I will cause the accident. I do agree, to an extent. If I go in fully committed, AND I can get my rear bumper in front of the passee prior to corner exit, then yes, this works great. But if not, somebody is mowing lawns.

In my league races, I am much more comfortable with this. But on public servers, or when I am racing with people I don't know... well you take your chances.

My problem comes in when I am setting up for a fast chicane, and somebody late brakes and takes the inside, I am already committed to taking the the apex, or I will crash. They on the other hand got on the brakes later, but in order to not miss the exit, they have to be slower when they hit the apex of the first curve of the chicane. So my options at this point are to take the apex and hope that it is only a minor bang. Or, try to keep braking and stop before hitting the wall or the tires and let the other guy go. To me, this is not aggressive overtaking and being fully committed. This is overly optimistic and expecting the other guy to just give room because you happen to be inside, even if you are not in a position to allow room for the other guy.

So what do you do in the case of the T1 T2 and T3 at Blackwood? I have had this happen a lot and seen all kinds of different outcomes.

Driver 1 is leading and stays outside going into turn 1 hoping to apex normally and maintain a fast exit speed. (probably a mistake, he should have protected the inside line)

Driver 2 late brakes and gets alongside.

Driver 1 can take turn 1 on the outside and hold position to the left of Driver 2.

Driver 2 loses exit speed because Driver 1 is still on his outside. (is this because driver 2 was not fully committed or because the outside line on T1 at Blackwood is not that much slower?)

Driver 1 now has the inside line to the first corner of the chicane, but driver 2 is determined and hold his position.

They are now both going fast enough where if they don't apex on both the corners of the chicane, they will go off track.

Who has right of way?
Quote from ayrton senna 87 :i dont mean a video of 'nice fights' where drivers give each other room etc so they can carry on having a good race, i mean a vid where someone gets done and thats that, then a vid of the various things that can go wrong, like staying on the outside or not being commited enough!!

Hehehe, give each other room, I thought you knew Phlos.. :P
Quote from Honey :it is quite common to find people like ayrton and tristan that pretend to pass even when they know it's 100% crash, i know very well that kind of attitude, it's the attitude that if they cannot pass me by being faster, they tap me from behind at braking and pretend that i broke too early, or if i pass they tap me the back side making me spin and again of course it's my fault...Uh-hu

I haven't read the rest of this thread cos I've turned my nose up at this point.

I have never and will never purposely go for a pass that isn't on, or nudge someone out of the way. If I'm following someone who is slower or brakes earlier than I was anticipating I will do everything I can to avoid them, even if I end up crashing myself avoiding them. After that I will be more wary about their braking points etc.

But I WILL NEVER NUDGE SOMEONE TO GAIN AN ADVANTAGE (on purpose). Incidents happen, and I'd be lying if I said I'd never caused an avoidable accident, but never ever on purpose.
Quote from Blackout :I think this clip suits here pretty well. Who you think is guilty to the crash happened? The black car or the yellow one? The yellow is in front, he totally blocks the line way too late. But he is in front so he has the right to choose it. Offcourse both of the drivers didnt admit doing anything wrong, what you think? Did yellow try to ram the black of the track or was the black one to blaim?

In this case the yellow one, because it's really really unnessecary what he does. If you was defending he would keep that outside line, because next turn he will be on the inside anyway...
One question for Ayrton, why would you ever intentionally hit someone, in LFS or in real life. That's the second time you've said that when giving reasons for crashing
Quote from Blackout :I think this clip suits here pretty well. Who you think is guilty to the crash happened? The black car or the yellow one? The yellow is in front, he totally blocks the line way too late. But he is in front so he has the right to choose it. Offcourse both of the drivers didnt admit doing anything wrong, what you think? Did yellow try to ram the black of the track or was the black one to blaim?

Personally the yellow one cut the black one off so he was to blame. You shouldn't swerve across the track like that. What he should have done was squeeze the black car as they came down to the braking zone boxing it in and giving himself a better entry into the next turn.

Keiran
i do try to defend the corner from people unless i think they have me beat in which case i will give room, racing is no fun if you dont defend

however on public servers when racing against someone you dont have experience of it can really be prudent to give them some extra room until you know if theyre a good racer or some kinda maniac.

id rather give more room instead of turning in without knowing what the guys gonna do cos id rather lose one place rather than crash out
#49 - Goop
Quote from 96 GTS :One question for Ayrton, why would you ever intentionally hit someone, in LFS or in real life. That's the second time you've said that when giving reasons for crashing

I was wondering that too Uh-hu

Unfortunately for me, I miss out on racing quite a few of you because of the difference in timezones. You can tell a hell of a lot more about someone from racing them then from what you can reading.

Ayrton, when you jam it up the inside of me in some silly spot, I'll happily yield Smile And I'll honk and wave when the next person you pull it on doesn't :wave2:
Quote from ayrton senna 87 :lol phlos!! i always say u are the only guy who i acutlaly cant help but hit! its coz if i let u get away im not quick enough to catch u again!

u gotta admit tho, the last few races weve had i havnt wrecked u Big grin
that one at BL GP was awesome Big grinBig grin

Razz

Overtaking
(146 posts, started )
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