Eh, what I meant was that the person outside just has to share the road at the apex, they do not have to lift off enough to fall behind you at the exit. If they cut you off at the apex when you'r at their door that's their bad. If you take the corner at such speed that you knock them off the road at the exit, then it is the overtakers fault. As long as both parties can keep 3 wheels on the road without contact, it's probably ok.

Simply, if you have cornering rights, you only have the right to be at the apex, not the exit. It's not like anyone who's that far offline will be able to get on the gas properly to challenge for the next turn anyhow, as they are on the clag. The way some of these posters are writing, they imply that once they are halfway past you should just fall behind them, and if you don't any wreck is your fault. Sure you shouldn't cut them off, but they have an obligation to leave room also. I can't count the number of times I've seen people go door-to-door down a straight like this, and the ending was always the same. The inside guy got to the next turn quicker and finished the pass. When you are forced outside like that you can never carry enough speed or get on the throttle soon enough to beat the inside guy. So there's no reason to force someone off just because you can! Now that said, if he is more than half past you you should yield, because he probably can't see you, and you will have a better chance of passing him back that way anyhow.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Doesn't it look really obvious from those onboard stills that Montoya wasn't close enough? I know LFS isn't F1, but I would've backed out of that before the corner.

Those onboard shots seriously distort (lengthen) distances. Montoya was closer than it looks in the stills.

I think Montoya's having a nightmare of a season, and it's a big shame. He's definitely the marmite of F1 drivers. People love him or hate him, but even as a fan, I'm really disapointed how it's turned out at McLaren.

I'm with Axebreaker on this and maybe there is a different mentality between different racing series, whether it's karting, road cars, or open wheelers.

For me, if a driver attempts to pass on the inside, I think (and I'm talking general road racing), unless they are cleanly past they should keep it tight and not force the other guy to take avoiding action. If the defending driver sticks it out on the outside they should be given the room and not driven off the track. Likewise, I don't think the outside defending driver should cut up someone who's alongside.

Things are not always as clearcut as the standard inside overtaking manouver, and incidents will happen, but many are avoidable. I see a lot of 'it was my line' attitude by people overtaking or defending in online racing, where if a little consideration was taken they'd have got further without damage and wouldn't spend most of their time arguing. You can put some of it down to poor visibility in online racing an some of it down to very aggresive tactics.

In LFS there is no danger or cost to a collision. Maybe karting is the real life closest equivalent, where the karts are robust, cheap (by motorsport standards), and the speeds and dangers are low (again, by motorsport standards).

Well at the end of the day IMO, you're only gonna win races by being agressive and trying to overtake. The definition of a good race to me is being in a battle with someone where I overtake them, then they overtake me, then I overtake them again and so on. If they want to behave like a retard and try and hold on round the outside then that's their problem if they don't have the skill for it. It aint my fault if they crash when I stick it up the inside and personally it's a huge advantage for me cause I don't have anyone behind anymore. It sounds arrogant I know, but no one I know won a race through being nice and considerate! If I can muscle my way past I will. I'm not into nudging people off the track or using them as a brake, but if the person turns in on me and crashes....it's their fault not mine!

In that situation I wouldn't hit them though as I wouldn't make a move unless I know I'll make it. If they leave me no space and I'm right along side them....then it's their fault.

the monty/rosberg incident was REALLY obvious to anyone that knows racing. Monty is a bit of a hot head and generally has the pace early on to make overtakes while everyone else is judging the pace of the track/car. When he did the same to MS MS took to the grass to avoid the collision as there was not enough space. MS saw the overtake coming and made sure he could continue to race. Rosberg claims not to have seen the move made by Monty and therefore turned in on him, blocking Montys exit (there is NO way monty could avoid Rosbergs car when Rosberg decided to turn in). It was a racing incident caused by Rosbergs lack of awareness/inexperience and Montys desire to be ahead and 'race'. Blame should be aportioned appropriately, Monty should have known better trying a move like that on a rookie and Rosberg should be more aware of the cars around him. If I was Monty I'd be a bit upset but that's racing, if I was Rosberg I'd be embarrassed but clearly I wouldn't tell anyone I was.

If it happened in LFS I wouldn't call for a ban or anything but I would probably ask the person to check thier mirrors more.

Quote from keiran :

Montoya would have made the corner had Rosberg backed out. Would have made it even with Rosberg beside him had he not had to hit the kerb so hard.

How do you know? Clearvoyance, maybe?

And besides, it's really funny how ppl claim things like "every real racer would say blah-blah". That is simply not true. I read comments of real racers stating one thing while others state the opposite regarding this incident . So there goes your "every". Nonetheless I think it discussions like this make ppl more aware, which is all you can ask for as in the end opinions will still differ.

I for one know that I'm often too cautious on overtaking and actually had someone once, quite some time ago, after we had a nice race, say to me that I need to be more aggressive and that I should not have backed off on a certain occasion when he tried to pass me. Problem was, I knew he was way faster than me, and I hadn't realized that he was just playing around with me, sort of testing me out. So, yeah, I'm working on that - if only I had more time to race .

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

did u see rosberb staying on the outside of monty? thats what happens when u stay on the outside!!

nope thats what happens when you try to overtake on a corner that has way too little angle and radius for the outside line to be at a serious disadvantage

rossberg screwed up a few times before the corner where the crash was and he didnt back down at all right before the turn and didnt leave jpm much room. jpm was gambling that he would give him room since rossberg made those mistakes before the passing attempt... but rossberg didnt back down.

just a racing incident and a lesson for rossberg. did i just quote speedvision

Quote from ArosaMike :

Well at the end of the day IMO, you're only gonna win races by being agressive and trying to overtake. The definition of a good race to me is being in a battle with someone where I overtake them, then they overtake me, then I overtake them again and so on. If they want to behave like a retard and try and hold on round the outside then that's their problem if they don't have the skill for it. It aint my fault if they crash when I stick it up the inside and personally it's a huge advantage for me cause I don't have anyone behind anymore. It sounds arrogant I know, but no one I know won a race through being nice and considerate! If I can muscle my way past I will. I'm not into nudging people off the track or using them as a brake, but if the person turns in on me and crashes....it's their fault not mine!

If I am in front, I have a right to defend. If you get up my inside on the apex, good for you, I will not run you off the road. But I will, in some cases, force you to keep it tight to pinch your exit. I will stay side by side through the exit if I can. If you did not expect that, and you have carried too much speed to hold your line, then you just hit me. Are you trying to say that it is my fault that we had contact? If I see that there is no way to stay beside you, or the corner combination is not right for the above tactic, I will square up the corner and try to get back along side you.

Regarding Rosberg, he did not complete the previous chicane because Montoya had got inside on the apex. He is allowed to do that, but should not have gotten a clear advantage from doing so. He did get a clear advantage as he exited a few car lengths ahead of JPM, albiet at a slower speed. If the wreck had not happened, my bet is that Rosberg would have gotten a drive through penalty on the next lap. Going into the next corner, Rosberg admitted to pinching down on JPM to try and get a better run on the next corner. He even said that he probably went too far. JPM's comment was, "He wasn't going to make that corner anyway" implying that Rosberg had driven in too deep in the first place.

That incident highlights why I hate that type of chicane. They are terrible for passing attempts.

but they sure are exciting. approaching the last chicane on aston national is almost the same

Quote from drinklime :

i havent seen the F-1 footage (just those pics) but i think F1 is a really bad comparison because those cars are optimized to the point that there is really only one clear line. if you go off that line you are toast. thats why no one passes, everyone is set at the limit by a computer. screw modern F1. We need to go back to cars like this:

edit: heres one with the audio
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-17994254184349724

imagine montoya, alonso, and schumacher duking it out in cars like those

Those cars have insane amounts on downforce from the underbody ground effects, so they don't rely on topside aero as much. F1 definitely needs to go back to that. Its much more exciting.

Back to overtaking in the world of sims, though...

The general rule has always been: "While there's overlap, hold your line". This is especially important in sims where most drivers have an impaired field of view, and skill levels vary from "first time in a multiplayer race" to "Greger Huttu".

--
Rob

Quote from rheiser :

Back to overtaking in the world of sims, though...

The general rule has always been: "While there's overlap, hold your line". This is especially important in sims where most drivers have an impaired field of view, and skill levels vary from "first time in a multiplayer race" to "Greger Huttu".

--
Rob

Who holds what line? There are several ways to interpret that.

I'll hold to the racing line unless I can see the car next to me (I have side-look on my steering wheel buttons). Sometimes I'll give a hairsbreath of room if I'm unsure, more to give the other car room to back off than anything.

Quote from Spinjack :

Who holds what line? There are several ways to interpret that.

You own the half of the track you're on. While you're side by side, no one owns the ideal line. The general tenor of conversations about racing incidents online (and this thread) seems to be about "assigning blame". Everyone knows the pithy quotes about the first secret to winning is surviving, but most people don't drive like that. I'm including myself here, when the red mist takes over. If you drive with the first intent being to survive the race, the skill to survive closer racing will come with experience. The biggest problem with the wide range of skills on a server at any given time is that there isn't enough "racing" going on to help people develop racing skills, especially with the 5-10 lap sprints that dominate. If you are the one doing the passing on the public servers, it might be in your best interest to also consider it your responsibility to help less experience drivers learn how to be better drivers.

Wow, how did I get on this soapbox?

--
Rob

Quote from rheiser :

You own the half of the track you're on. While you're side by side, no one owns the ideal line. The general tenor of conversations about racing incidents online (and this thread) seems to be about "assigning blame". Everyone knows the pithy quotes about the first secret to winning is surviving, but most people don't drive like that. I'm including myself here, when the red mist takes over. If you drive with the first intent being to survive the race, the skill to survive closer racing will come with experience. The biggest problem with the wide range of skills on a server at any given time is that there isn't enough "racing" going on to help people develop racing skills, especially with the 5-10 lap sprints that dominate. If you are the one doing the passing on the public servers, it might be in your best interest to also consider it your responsibility to help less experience drivers learn how to be better drivers.

Actually, that's how I typically drive and it works very well. I'll take is easy at the start, let the carnage take place, drive through the wreckage, and start working my way through the field. Which, suprisingly or not, is rather easy and requires very little overtaking. If I can avoid getting hammered during the start, I'll usually move from near the back of the pack to near the front simply by not crashing. Its funny to look at the fast lap times after a public race. I'll have one of the lower fast laps but somehow still manage a top 5 finish in a 12+ car race.

Biggest problems I have a the start is getting rear ended (hard) when I brake early into T1 to avoid the mayhem that is about to occur or getting sideswipped (hard) by some bonehead who isn't paying attention and tries to hit the apex of the turn coming from the outside while in a crowd.

Quote :

Wow, how did I get on this soapbox?

--
Rob

Quote from keiran :

There's lots of debris off the line at the start of a Grand Prix. F1 isn't the only race of the weekend, there's many different classes racing around that track.

Rosberg lost the line, you have no right to the corner once your off the line. Montoya had him into the braking zone and Rosberg acknowledged this by giving Montoya room, at this point Rosberg had lost the line and should have yielded. I think Rosberg had a lot of weight on his shoulders after ruining Webbers lap and just tried to hold in there.

What are you taking about, the only damage done was to the nose. The reason he retired was because he hit `the wall of champions.`

It amazes me how people complain and complain about the lack of overtaking and how the drivers don't take enough risks. Yet when Montoya is charging he becomes stupid and overly aggressive.

When I race, I race aggressively in real life and in LFS (although only with people I know who will respond correctly in LFS). That's part of the thrill of racing is having a hard thought out battle.

Keiran

I will retract my statement about the damage to Montoyas' car, you were right about the wall of champs. causing his terminal damage. But based on the pics posted in the next page, clearly Rosberg was still ahead of him, and Juan jumping the curbs and having no choice but to turn into Rosberg was the cause of that. And I will say that was racing, tride and true. Agressive, but simply a racing accident. I was abit miffed tho, kinda hoped that Canada was going to be a good weekend for the kid. Thats all, please dont take offense to my posts that day.

And to throw my 2 cents into the ring here, I have read about all of this thread. I and my brother have just gotten this game about 2 weeks now. We both have seen the turn one melee, and been victims of it. We both try to stay clear of it, and hang back and develop our laps and setups with each other and watch incar views of the top drivers to see what makes them fast. There have been times Ive managed to go from last to 1st in turn 1, but when the faster drivers do catch up, I will always yield to them. I know realistically for now, we can not run with the "Big Dogs", not yet anyways . Some rooms tho, some of the "senior" drivers have a tendancy to just break out the noob word, without taking the 30 seconds to basically explain to them, you cant win the race in turn one, but you can lose it there. I hope you guys understand this, and will not mind racing with us, and understanding that yes, we will make mistakes, but nothing intentional on our parts has ever been done to wreck the top guys.
And while we are on it, how about people that right after a wreck, get right back into the race line @ 30 mph? That should be another post...

the cause of the turn one accidents is that many drivers dont have the skill to match their desire to win. soo... they attempt unrealistic maneuvers, dont notice the person next to them or something else to cause an accident. If you are a good driver and you're racing against someone else of high skill you can enter corners side by side without crashing on turn 1 of lap one. of course some corners are more dangerous than others to enter side by side.

battlekills and being fast are two different things. doesnt matter if you can do a 53 second lap time if you cant survive 1 lap.

Quote from Gabkicks :

the cause of the turn one accidents is that many drivers dont have the skill to match their desire to win

... and that's why T1 carnage is often followed by T2 wreckage. Inexperienced drivers get caught in the pileup at T1, then frantically try to make up for lost time. At the end of the straight they take the inside, brake at the 25m marker, and take you out.

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

more proof that it is slow guys in T1 that cause the accidents

http://www.dragon-karting.com/tempimages/flip.mpg

i would have rammed him personally, instead of swerving.

Personnally I would call that "The Slower and the Stupid".

We just can't say whether the latter is faster because it didnt even managed to reach L1/T1 :-)

Actually you are a funny guy Dendy Boi.

I remember few weeks ago a race in SO classic, where I slightly touched you when braking in T1, with absolutely no consequence.
The lap after you sent me to the air, and you explained that it was a 'reply'.
Despite my apologizes for the first little contact.
What is funny is that you take this long thread to explain that a contact from behind is nearly a blue flag for a faster driver, but when it happen to you you seem to feel it as an unacceptable offense...
not a very convincing driving attitude.

see you in T1 mate.