Quote from AndroidXP :

The only fear I have is the documentation of all these nifty little things. LFS has already soo many functions and shortcuts and whatnot, but only a very small part of the players know about these.

That is very true. I almost wish we had documentation being noted down from day one, and just let the new features and shortcuts be added on to the documentation. It doesn't have to be some pretty manual, but just something to take note... and maybe develop a final manual for S2 final

well, say I have my default universal settings for all, except shifting, maybe I want to change that so that everything is the same EXCEPT for paddles or sequential.

Quote from Tweaker :

That is very true. I almost wish we had documentation being noted down from day one, and just let the new features and shortcuts be added on to the documentation. It doesn't have to be some pretty manual, but just something to take note... and maybe develop a final manual for S2 final

LFS manual http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=1738
maybe add pdf version to s2 final release

Quote from Tweaker :

That is very true. I almost wish we had documentation being noted down from day one, and just let the new features and shortcuts be added on to the documentation. It doesn't have to be some pretty manual, but just something to take note... and maybe develop a final manual for S2 final

well i guess thats just what happens when the game development is a one man show (well the closest thing to one as far as gamedev goes)
having to document code solely for himself might be the reason scawen likes to work alone

Quote from Scawen :

But now I think I've found an answer...

That would seem to be a good system, especially if there would be commands for setting other settings too, like force strength, fov, look sensitivity, wheel turn compensation, FF device (some freak could use different wheels for different cars ), etc. Maybe even the number plate so you could have different plates in different cars.

While on topic of controls, would it be difficult to also slip in ability to bind some "nonstandard" keystrokes to controls. For example, the win32 api defines function keys all the way up to F24. The VK_F13-VK_F24 range is unused in PC keyboards (as far as I know) so they could be used by external applications to send input to LFS. I could make my FF shifter application send those instead of regular keyboard keypresses, bind them to the gear changes in LFS, and the shifter wouldn't flood the chat text entry dialog with junk anymore or stop me from quiting the game. Ideally they could also ignore shift/ctrl/alt states...

Quote from Scawen :

Now that may sound a bit complicated but it is only for experts.

I do think it is a bit complicated. I'll take a wild guess and say that the DFP is the most widespread sim-racing wheel and this will be too complicated for most owners. It has paddles and a sequential stick and should ideally be driven with paddles for the F1 and with stick for all the other cars.

At the moment I use joytokey to achieve this and I don't think I would switch to writing batch files instead.

Maybe LFS should just ask the user what shifting hardware is availabe (H-gate, sequential stick, paddles, clutch pedal) in the same way that it asks how many degrees of rotation the wheel has. Then the shifting controls could all be setup automatically when switching between cars just like the steering is setup automatically.

Quote from Scawen :

But now I think I've found an answer (for experts to use)

Awesome idea, +1

Quote from Kegetys :

That would seem to be a good system, especially if there would be commands for setting other settings too, like force strength, fov, look sensitivity, wheel turn compensation, FF device (some freak could use different wheels for different cars ), etc. Maybe even the number plate so you could have different plates in different cars.

While on topic of controls, would it be difficult to also slip in ability to bind some "nonstandard" keystrokes to controls. For example, the win32 api defines function keys all the way up to F24. The VK_F13-VK_F24 range is unused in PC keyboards (as far as I know) so they could be used by external applications to send input to LFS. I could make my FF shifter application send those instead of regular keyboard keypresses, bind them to the gear changes in LFS, and the shifter wouldn't flood the chat text entry dialog with junk anymore or stop me from quiting the game. Ideally they could also ignore shift/ctrl/alt states...

Sure that the D3d APi has the ability to send F1-F24, would that mean that if I had drivers for my apple keyboard, I could have my F13-F16 keys working?

J.B. : It is going to do it automatically, even from patch U10.

[ EDIT : After re-reading your post, now I'm not so sure that it would handle the DFP automatically - if the DFP doesn't have an H-shifter - in fact the auto system only switches correctly between an H-shifter and a sequential one (either paddles or stick) - it does not select between two different sequential arrangements - because the LFS controls screen will only offer one assignment each of "shift up" and "shift down" - you would need 3 small batch files (shifter.txt, paddle.txt and sequential.txt) to assign tke keys correctly - each batch file needs only two lines ]

The batch file thing is purely an option thought up in response to Kegetys and dawesdust who wanted to use the spare controls for different functions at other times. http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=157431#post157431

[ EDIT : Hmm... not "purely"... the batch files are also used for the necessary key reassignments when changing from paddle shifter to sequential shifter ]

Example : when using a paddle shifter car they wanted to use the shifter for handbrake, while the shifter remained assigned to shifter for shifter type cars.

It was impossible for me to design an interface that would allow double / triple conditional key assignments while remaining usable, so that's why the batch file is useful. If you have enough buttons for your purposes, you will never need to know about it. The whole idea is to keep the interface simple.

[ EDIT : And it should remain simple if your controls requirements are simple - but complex control arrangements will result in greater complexity ]

EDIT : Sorry about all the edits, this post looks like I'm having a converation with myself!

with regards to the shifter, i actually run 2 LFS installs, One setup for Formular, and One Set for Cars requiring a shifter, The only niggling thing to me is the Clutch control. #1 the clutch control is very jumpy, Almost engaged or not engaged, Not much travel used by the clutch. And. i have to swtich between auto clutch or no clutch when switching between GTR and Road (as GTR use crash boxes) Other than this. I am happy with existing way of 2 versions

Quote from Scawen :

It was impossible for me to design an interface that would allow double / triple conditional key assignments while remaining usable, so that's why the batch file is useful. If you have enough buttons for your purposes, you will never need to know about it. The whole idea is to keep the interface simple.

I might put together a quick program that allows you to create the batch files from a graphical interface to help out those who would like to use it but can't quite undertsand how.

lfs cfg files and much more of a console type interface (btw are all those commands documented anywhere ?) ... i love the idea
how about maybe a full console like in quake ?

Oooooh, speaking of Quake, a request from a long time ago could maybe be fulfilled? Quake style text message entry (maybe make it switchable between the two systems?). I find having the enter text message box in the middle of the screen very frustrating. Many of us like to type the odd line while racing and sometimes you can't get done on the straight so you have to back off the keyboard, take the corner and then carry on, but its difficult to type with the message box in the middle of the screen. Even if it goes to the bottom of the screen for ease of coding... just so long as its not in the middle. Nothing major though.

Quote from Scawen :

J.B. : It is going to do it automatically, even from patch U10.

The batch file thing is purely an option thought up in response to Kegetys and dawesdust who wanted to use the spare controls for different functions at other times. http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=157431#post157431

Example : when using a paddle shifter car they wanted to use the shifter for handbrake, while the shifter remained assigned to shifter for shifter type cars.

It was impossible for me to design an interface that would allow double / triple conditional key assignments while remaining usable, so that's why the batch file is useful. If you have enough buttons for your purposes, you will never need to know about it. The whole idea is to keep the interface simple.

Hmm, I don't think I really understand the new system. You mentioned that when switching between a car that uses a an H-gate to a car that uses a sequential gearbox the clutch settings will automatically change. You don't mention what will happen to button assignments or what will happen when switching between a car with a sequential paddle-operated gearbox (F1) and a car with a sequential stick-operated gearbox (FOX)?

What I want to happen after switching from F1 to FOX or a roadcar is that the buttons that were mapped in LFS to the gear+/gear- actions would change from my paddles to my sequential shifter.

Is this what will happen? Or will I be able to map buttons per car type? (which is what I was thinking of). Or map both paddles and sequential stick to the same actions? (which would be good enough for me).

Thats what scawen is doing (I think) so if you are driving FXO your stick (on a momo) will be used for shifting and paddles can be remapped to anything, then when you switch to BF1 for instance, paddles = shift, and stick can be remapped to anything. And even further, so say button 1&2 on the face of a momo (top left & top right) are used for look left and look right during BF1 time, when you get in your FXO, those could be remapped to anything else, and the paddles be remapped to look left and right.

Yes J.B. you are right. I was sort of mistaken when I first wrote that post (now edited).

If you are switching between FOX (sequential stick) and BF1 (paddle) then you will really need the batch files if you want to switch the assignment automatically.

So lets say your sequential stick has buttons 4 and 5, while your paddles have buttons 9 and 10.

You would need to save these two text files in your LFS folder :

sequential.txt

/button sh_down 4
/button sh_up 5

paddle.txt

/button sh_down 9
/button sh_up 10

Ok, Scawen, Correct me if I am wrong, but could we not create a BF1.txt have it contain "/run paddle.txt" to run the paddle setup and then for say FXO have a FXO.txt and have it contain "/run sequential.txt". Just to avoid having to put /button <function> 3 in each setting, and to make running the batch files automatic.

Edit: Would a "FXO.txt" be auto ran when getting in a FXO?

Well I was thinking that when you load the FXO it would try to run both FXO.txt and shifter.txt

So you can choose what you want to use, and that would avoid having scripts calling scripts (which is harder to code).

wouldnt those scripts be read like human input creating no additional codework for scripts calling scripts ?

Hmm... now I'm having wonders, becuase say in I dunno... UF1 I want to use paddles, how would it differentiate which batch file to load? maybe in the beginning of UF1.txt we could have /shifting=paddle.txt to tell LFS which shifting profile to use?

Quote from Shotglass :

wouldnt those scripts be read like human input creating no additional codework for scripts calling scripts ?

I think it's one step harder because when multiple scripts are in memory at once they will need allocation, instead of just using a static script buffer. And it needs a check to avoid self calling. Maybe not hard really, I don't know because I haven't thought it through fully, I was just trying to take the simple option.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

Hmm... now I'm having wonders, becuase say in I dunno... UF1 I want to use paddles, how would it differentiate which batch file to load? maybe in the beginning of UF1.txt we could have /shifting=paddle.txt to tell LFS which shifting profile to use?

Well I guess you can either go with the LFS suggested way (use shifter.txt and paddle.txt, etc) or your own way (UF1.txt, FOX.txt etc).

Anyway that's enough for me now, bed time, hopefully I can get U10 out tomorrow.

Oh, OK. Now It makes sense Thanks Scawen

Please execute automatically batch depending on the type of car first and batch depending on the car loaded after. Id like to have these .txt files in separate (?batch?) data folder, I dont like mess in root thx

Ah Ok. Thx for the explanation. It will be alright for me but I think a GUI based version for the three types of cars would be easier for most people. Anyway, looking forward to the patch.