Hello Hotlappers,

I decided to spend half a day updating the hotlapping mode. I read a post by scipy some time ago suggesting that layouts could be available in Hotlapping mode.
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1578876#post1578876
I think that does no harm if touching any added objects invalidates the hotlap. Also it allows hotlaps to be done on custom layouts / open configurations.

We won't be allowing hotlaps with custom lap timing to be uploaded to LFS world, but it can be used for practice or whatever you want to use it for.

I also decided to allow an autocross start position to be added, so you can choose your start point instead of always going from the last split. This is for convenience, doesn't affect lap times so would be valid for LFS World hotlaps.

Now the question I want to ask you. This question is for people who actually do hotlapping - I am not interested in the opinion of people who don't do hotlapping!

EDIT : I think we have the answer now (see below)

It's about tyre temperatures. I can make a very simple change to improve this, preheating the tyres to optimum temperature at the start point instead of 20 degrees below. I think this will eliminate a lot of messing around trying to get your tyres up to temperature. But could it cause any problems? This is such a simple change, took me one minute to do it, but I don't want to "break" anything with it (old hotlaps can still be viewed anyway). It would be more complicated for me to add a slider bar so you could choose the starting temperature, so I'm hoping that optimum temperature is what you want.

I just have a little doubt, for example in a car which had a habit of overheating its tyres, you might want to start your flying lap with tyres below optimum. But I'm not a hotlapper, so please tell me what you think.

EDIT : It turned out too important to do the slider bar, so I have done that now. Thanks for the feedback.

EDIT 2 : Two days later, this is the point we have arrived at...

Tyres section in garage - settings for tyre warmer temperatures
You can load a layout in hotlap mode (may include start position)
NOTE : LFS World hotlaps may include start position - not objects
Hotlapping is possible on open configurations (not for LFS World)
Reliable detection of wall side impacts (e.g. at South City)
Pit stops are no longer available in Hotlapping mode

I have done several times hotlapping and I would like to say yes!

EDIT: I just almost never upload them as I usually want straightly on top 3 ( or very close to WR like 0,5 secs)


EDIT: Misread again, so there is no problems about it. I was telling like +1 for flying lap I mean with optimum tyre temperatures

I think problem with this is that you have to have lower temps in long tracks and fast cars to be able to finish it well. So i think its not so good thing.

Then again it would be good to allow people use racing line in hotlapping mode also so noobs like me could get some wr's :P

Overheating tyres can be a problem for a hotlap setup, so my opinion is a few degrees below optimum so the sweet spot can be achieved quickly through some pre lap manoeuvres - not the acrobatics that some people feel the need to go through - Or, the sweet spot can be hit later in the hotlap.

This really depends on the layout/track though so I have a feeling one temp won't suit all.

If a slider cannot be made without too much work, is it possible to extend the tyre selection to include the current 20° below optimum 10°-5° below and Optimum, or even just two selections?

That isn't a request, but a suggestion if feasible.

[edit]
Thinking some more, it really should be down to the hotlapper to manage their tyres, after all, that is part of the skill. A few degrees, say 5° should prevent the pre lap antics that I'm sure you would like to prevent.

I hotlap a great deal, but have never uploaded - I keep them for my own private embarrassment
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Hi, I use the hotlap system for telemetry and sometimes I upload hotlaps.
I think that, if we can't select the tyre temp at the start, a is better don't start with the optimum temp. Because if the car needs more temp, we can drift and warm it easily, but if we want it cold, we must wait some time for cold it.

Thanks

Scawen, add a slider to select the temperature of the tires. Between -10 degrees from the optimal temperature and to the optimum. -10 degrees - long track with an optimal temperature - small track.

To moving starting point and choosing tyre temps: Please NO!!! Hotlapping should show us the fastest driver under GIVEN CONDITIONS and if you give them tools to make it more individual, you may destroy the hotlapping mode significantly. All should have the same conditions, thats the point.

To place AC objects in HL mode: Mhhh, nice idea for training. May be a good thing for comparing braking points and so on.

The only thing i would like to have is a direct comparisation tool ingame.... so that we can load 2 hotlaps and we can see two ghost cars. Sure its possible via HL analyzer, but its better to see directly on track.

Quote from KassadGLA :

Hi, I use the hotlap system for telemetry and sometimes I upload hotlaps.
I think that, if we can't select the tyre temp at the start, a is better don't start with the optimum temp. Because if the car needs more temp, we can drift and warm it easily, but if we want it cold, we must wait some time for cold it.

Thanks

Hello Scawen,
I agree to KassadGL's opinion. (I uploaded about 50 hotlaps, most of them have 102~103% distance to WR. So, I think I'm a very average hotlapper.)

Thanks~

Quote from Trekkerfahrer :

To moving starting point and choosing tyre temps: Please NO!!! Hotlapping should show us the fastest driver under GIVEN CONDITIONS and if you give them tools to make it more individual, you may destroy the hotlapping mode significantly. All should have the same conditions, thats the point.

I would agree with you, if hotlaps required the user to go straight off the start line and do one lap. But it doesn't, they do all sorts of things to get the tyres up to temperature (sometimes quite extreme like donuts or driving along a wall with the front wheels on full lock) and when they start the lap, they may have done any number of laps before that.

So, adding a start point makes no difference at all in my opinion, and the same thing applies to the tyres. People really do not start the lap with the tyres in in the same condition. I think it's all about how fast you can do a lap. I'm just adding two tools to help you get the car into the correct state more quickly.

I'm trying out a tyre temperature slider right now, will report on progress.

Quote from Trekkerfahrer :

To moving starting point and choosing tyre temps: Please NO!!! Hotlapping should show us the fastest driver under GIVEN CONDITIONS and if you give them tools to make it more individual, you may destroy the hotlapping mode significantly. All should have the same conditions, thats the point.

Choosing your tyre temps is no different than changing pressures or compounds, so I fail to see your argument.

The current starting temps are ok for race mode, but are way too cold for a hotlap. Trying to build temperature before the lap begins, runs the risk of overheating the carcass before the core. Scawens proposed change would mean that the whole tyre would be uniformly hotter ready for the lap.

I agree that it is the drivers responsibility to managed their tyres, and edited my previous post to allow for it.

Adding objects to hotlap mode sounds good too. I've been sorely wanting some kind of marker to help me get the rhythm and turn in points at West Hill.

[edit]
Oops! crossed post with Scawen.
^^ What he said
The slider sounds sensible if that isn't too much work for you Scawen
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It is interesting to see tyre temperature slider

There is no universal optimal temperature that would accommodate all combos so forcing it would be a bad idea to the current system. Even adding an option for it would mean it would work for only part of the combos which would look as a half-finished quick patch. No go if you ask me.

The slider however is a great idea and looks like the best thing to do. Since it's complicated to do it probably means we would have to wait for it. That's no problem. Better to do it right first time and improve on that if the need arises.

Also, I would like to mention the questions of the complexity of the slider - something to think about for the future:
a) symmetrical or asymmetrical, or even individual tire setting?
b) setting individual parts of tires (all three)
c) limit the temp setting range to avoid people having to watch bullshit 200°C hotlaps
most important for me:
d) separate profile for each car (maybe expand the profile to include other stuff unique for each car: FOV, button rates, mouse steering ratio, and so forth... there are suggestions about this)
less important:
e) separate profile for each tire (for example: road / hybrid / R2 / etc)
masochist style:
m) for each combo (you select combo and slider is already set at user preference)

Custom starting position looks fine and i have no objections against that. Although better to make those universal just for LFSW so to avoid some bullshit that comes to mind. Or make them movable between last split and finish - still talking about only LFSW HLs. How universal i don't know but the people can have their say.

Although it looks i have only 3 uploaded hotlaps true number is around 100 times more as all i do online is 99% hotlap with people that do the same. So i'm 1 experienced mtf

One more thought: probably good idea to make starting temp readable by insim thingy.

I have 60 hotlaps and I'm not going to stop.

I'm no big hotlap guy but I think the tyre temps for the slicked cars are mostly fine and easy to get perfect before the lap if you want to, what you should increase is the temp for all the roadcars, thats where I mostly see a lot of tyre heating before the actual hotlap.

It could all be different again if the new tyre physics come out though, so you really think it is a good idea to fiddle with that now?

Well - loading layout on hotlap mode would mean that people could chalk all around the lap the ideal line with braking markers,that would make obsolete that feature which prohibits to show original line from key 4.

About tyres - not a good idea to put optimum temperature because in a lot combos you need to start with colder tyres to not overheat them at the end of lap. Possibility to choose starting temperature sounds good,could be good to choose seperately front/rear tyres (if not seperately all 4). In ovals for some cars ideal temperature for starting is even higher than original optimum temperature,maybe would be bad to have an option to choose 10 or 20 degrees over optimum. For example MRT@oval - getting needed temperature (some 120+ for R3) is half of effort and success and it's very long process.

I think I'm pretty hardcore hotlapper with around 20 hours of hotlapping this week.

Imo optimum temperature would work only for slow cars/short tracks. On any other combo optimum temp is pretty useless. If you start lap in GTR car with optimum temperature tyres, your tyres will be dead after few corners. For me only slider bar makes sense.

Also, to get the best possible result you would need own slider for every tyre. For example, FWD cars need more heat for rear tyres than front tyres at start because front tyres heat up more during lap and vice versa for RWD cars.

I hope this isn't too impossible to make. Tyre heating is very annoying and time consuming so even some kind of relief would be great.

eh warm tire UF1, it's an awfully long time

Generally it's good idea, I've done several hotlaps, had 10+ WRs at my time. Actually, in GTRs, singleseaters etc. you really do that one lap on optimal temp... However when you pick up some longer track and slower car you might want start on reasonably cold tyres ending up in optimal temperature (not overheated) so you can take final corners as you want. Just poiting out that it might not work as you think however I'd still say yes so everyone has same conditions.

Just to add that I've never been doing donuts, full lock, or anything in my hotlaps. It's possible to make a fast lap without it. The real example is XRR @ WE1R the only WR left I have right now.

OK, I've done the slider bar, you can choose between 20 and zero below optimum.

Yes, it is a good idea to do this now, the same will apply to the new tyre physics so it's not a waste of time, and this is the layouts patch.

It's nearly finished, I just need to break HLVC when any added object is touched (not just the movable ones).

Quote from Scawen :

It's nearly finished, I just need to break HLVC when any added object is touched (not just the movable ones).

I wish you luck



A problem with a track so3 decided? I mean the last turn.

Quote from Joku123 :

Imo optimum temperature would work only for slow cars/short tracks. On any other combo optimum temp is pretty useless. If you start lap in GTR car with optimum temperature tyres, your tyres will be dead after few corners. For me only slider bar makes sense.

If your tyres are dead after only a few corners, its a bad setup, or you're over driving. Part of the skill is looking after your tyres - for a full race as well as a hotlap - The current problem is starting a hotlap with cooler tyres, and as you say, tyre heating is annoying, and also hard to get right.

If a slider can be produced, then the range should run between the current 20° below optimum to maybe 5° above for all tyres in my opinion. Setting individual tyres is getting too complex I think.
[edit]

Quote from Scawen :

OK, I've done the slider bar, you can choose between 20 and zero below optimum.

Sounds good, and that was quick.
One question if I may - Does tyre temp affect pressures? I've always believed so, but never really been certain.
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Quote from Squelch :

If your tyres are dead after only a few corners, its a bad setup, or you're over driving. Part of the skill is looking after your tyres - for a full race as well as a hotlap

It is faster to start with cool tyres and drive as fast as you can than start with optimum temp tyres and look after tyres.

Preseting tyre temp? That would be great, but ideally, it'd have to be a slider, with some cars you have to start with lower than opt temp, since the tires will heat up a great deal during the lap, while with others, you may want to select higher than opt temp (think UF1, MRT5). Since a starting tyre temp would be clearly visible, noone would be at a disadvantage.

As far as lays go, I fail to understand the point in skippy's post. Surely, one can make a layout with modified start point, what's the problem? There will be only one split with limited placement point (since you'll have to cross it on the out lap, so you'd have a full timed lap and not a full lap+start to finish line). Now, that is the only flaw with this configuration, and in my opinion - it's nothing. When you qualify - the only thing that matters is the final laptime, and you can train different sectors separately. The (possibly) easy fix for this whole situation, that comes to mind is simply to make some option for the first lap to start to count when the player crosses the finish line, instead of starting to count right after the lights, like in hotlap. That may be usefull in some AutoX layouts too, actually. And it'd work online, so no limiting to hotlap mode.

But if layouts were to be allowed in a hotlap, in my opinion, it would be better if those hotlaps were to be disallowed to upload to LFSW in any form. I'm thinking about placing some markers (conus, white lines) for braking points, apexes (AS3r last corner, would help a lot). It's bad enough with "4" helper in multiplayer, I know guys who wouldn't hotlap only because they just can't drive without that line. Contr-argument would be that those layouts would be accessible to anyone, so again, no disadvantage, but I really hate the idea, that we may be hotlapping with this aiding conuses, that's really not in the spirit of hotlapping.

Quote from Joku123 :

It is faster to start with cool tyres and drive as fast as you can than start with optimum temp tyres and look after tyres.

That is a good question, and my gut feeling is you should be quicker when starting at optimum, and maintaining it for max grip, but who knows

Quote from Fox 2 :

But if layouts were to be allowed in a hotlap, in my opinion, it would be better if those hotlaps were to be disallowed to upload to LFSW in any form. I'm thinking about placing some markers (conus, white lines) for braking points, apexes (AS3r last corner, would help a lot). It's bad enough with "4" helper in multiplayer, I know guys who wouldn't hotlap only because they just can't drive without that line. Contr-argument would be that those layouts would be accessible to anyone, so again, no disadvantage, but I really hate the idea, that we may be hotlapping with this aiding conuses, that's really not in the spirit of hotlapping.

The way I understand it is objects are allowed to be placed in HL mode, but the lap cannot be uploaded. I see them as a good training aid, but would be dissapointed if someone used a ramp to cut a corner and not trigger HLVC for a WR

Quote from Squelch :

but would be dissapointed if someone used a ramp to cut a corner and not trigger HLVC for a WR

Restrict the autocross objects to hotlap, ie remove unnecessary ones.