hmmm i wonder how many of them will " be protesting for justice and against poverty" when it's raining and there's nothing left to steal

Quote from Boris Lozac :

This shit is gonna postpone some of the Premier League games :banghead:

Arsenal are still set to play, so I'm more than happy.

"This has nothing to do with inequality. Young people just need to act more responsibly"



"LA LA LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA LA LA"

Free trainers for all! :monkey::chair::banana_ra

So DWB what do you suggest is done to make the impoverished and disenfranchised youth more equal so they'll stop rioting?

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Quote from flymike91 :

So DWB what do you suggest is done to make the impoverished and disenfranchised youth more equal so they'll stop rioting?

Using the public purse to help the poor, rather than the rich would be a start.

Anyone else catch Dave's statement on the disorder, get this...

https://plus.google.com/115169 ... 4705450/posts/3SaicHi6xGB

Evidently Dave and his friends at News Corp etc have got tired of social networking exposing their corruption and lies, and the riots presents a prime opportunity to crack down on it. Only 3 years ago I would've scoffed at anyone who said we we're sliding towards some kind of Orwellian nightmare, now I think the nightmare might be coming true slowly.

Quote from PMD9409 :

Meanwhile in Scotland:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... p;feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... _rFJw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... t3lDc&feature=related

Although it raises a valid point here. Despite it being orginally reported that it's UK riots, in truth there has been NO incidents of note (other than reckless bin tipping and ring dancing going on) in either Wales/Northern Ireland or Scotland. Why?

There are parts of Glasgow which are just as deprived as the same parts of London where we saw issues, and it's not like Glasgow doesn't have a gang problem either. Likewise Cardiff has issues as well. So why have'nt we seen rioting here.

Well the reason is pretty simple.











The Celtic nations are simply better than the English......

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

Although it raises a valid point here. Despite it being orginally reported that it's UK riots, in truth there has been NO incidents of note (other than reckless bin tipping and ring dancing going on) in either Wales/Northern Ireland or Scotland. Why?

There are parts of Glasgow which are just as deprived as the same parts of London where we saw issues, and it's not like Glasgow doesn't have a gang problem either. Likewise Cardiff has issues as well. So why have'nt we seen rioting here.

Well the reason is pretty simple.


The Celtic nations are simply better than the English......

Or because riots go one so often it is just normal day to day living. What happened in England wouldn't even be news worthy in NI/Scotland because it was hardly a case of noise pollution next to an Old Firm riot.

Quote from AndRand :

Becky, where did you find that?

I keep abresh of LGBT rights issues worldwide and sometimes I accidentaly pick up an unrelated article of interest. I think that particular article is most rellevent to long term capitalist nations like America and Western Europe.

Quote from menantoll :

I think you need to up your reading skills Becky. You consider me right wing right?

Although I was not speaking to you or any other particular person, from what I recall of the views you have expressed I would estimate you somewhere right of centre - but nowhere near the extreme.

Quote from 5haz :

Using the public purse to help the poor, rather than the rich would be a start.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, Now I know you are just a looney. What do you think benefits are? Where do you think the money comes from to pay for those benefits? Taxes that the rich people pay?

Quote from 5haz :

Anyone else catch Dave's statement on the disorder, get this...

https://plus.google.com/115169 ... 4705450/posts/3SaicHi6xGB

Evidently Dave and his friends at News Corp etc have got tired of social networking exposing their corruption and lies, and the riots presents a prime opportunity to crack down on it. Only 3 years ago I would've scoffed at anyone who said we we're sliding towards some kind of Orwellian nightmare, now I think the nightmare might be coming true slowly.

A typical example of not reading the words and missing out the ones that don't suit your agenda.

Quote from Dave :

So we are working with the Police, the intelligence services and industry to look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via these websites and services when we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality.

I've put the bold bit in so that you can't conveniently skip it this time.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Although I was not speaking to you or any other particular person, from what I recall of the views you have expressed I would estimate you somewhere right of centre - but nowhere near the extreme.

In that case I apologise for my comments that were directed at you.

Quote from menantoll :

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, Now I know you are just a looney. What do you think benefits are? Where do you think the money comes from to pay for those benefits? Taxes that the rich people pay?

You say rich, I think working class. The rich rarely pay tax because they have accountants to hide their money from the tax man.

Allegedly in 2005, the 54 billionaires in Britain paid a total of £14.7m in income tax. Of this, £9m was contributed by James Dyson. Yeah, they're really paying their share.

you're forgetting corporate tax, property tax, sales tax on million dollar+ items, capital gains tax, estate tax, jobs created by large corporations...everything. It's very romantic to think that the poor could run the country and corporations and maintain the same quality of life.

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

You say rich, I think working class. The rich rarely pay tax because they have accountants to hide their money from the tax man.

Allegedly in 2005, the 54 billionaires in Britain paid a total of £14.7m in income tax. Of this, £9m was contributed by James Dyson. Yeah, they're really paying their share.

I was waiting for that one. The government fills the holes when they are found, then the clever accountants find new holes (or use ones that they already found but were holding back). It is not the governments choice that these super rich manage to avoid some taxes. Even with the avoidance though they still pay a lot more that the average working man. Then there are all the taxes that flymike mentions.

Add on top of that the extra indirect taxes (VAT etc) that the rich pay as they spend more on luxury goods than the poor.

Oh, I'd never say they didn't the poor could run the country. In fact they'd just be as greedy, if not more than the folks who run it now, but worse is they'd not known what to do with the money and go bankrupt in a handful of years (as statistics shows happens to big lottery winners).

But the mega rich always find a way to get out of paying the tax the rest of us mortals have to. And having to pay corporate tax is no substitute that most of them pay less than 1% income tax. For anything over 200k they should be paying 50% income tax. The family shop pays those taxes and creates jobs (okay, so it is only 2 paid jobs so far and one is part time), but doesn't mean we should get out of paying income tax.

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

Oh, I'd never say they didn't the poor could run the country. In fact they'd just be as greedy, if not more than the folks who run it now, but worse is they'd not known what to do with the money and go bankrupt in a handful of years (as statistics shows happens to big lottery winners).

But the mega rich always find a way to get out of paying the tax the rest of us mortals have to. And having to pay corporate tax is no substitute that most of them pay less than 1% income tax. For anything over 200k they should be paying 50% income tax. The family shop pays those taxes and creates jobs (okay, so it is only 2 paid jobs so far and one is part time), but doesn't mean we should get out of paying income tax.

If "The family shop" are paying less than 1% income tax then they are paying huge fees to the accountants who manage these savings for them (typically 25% of the amount of tax they saved). This doesn't mean the government wants this to happen though. It doesn't mean the government aren't fighting to stop it happening.

In every budget there are changes to close tax avoidance loopholes. These accountants earn way way more than MP's, HMRC tax experts etc. It's no wonder they win. What happens if HMRC offers silly salaries to attract these people though? You get outcries that a civil servant should never earn that much.

Quote :

For anything over 200k they should be paying 50% income tax.

so, like serfdom of old, people should spend half of their time working their land, and half of their time working the feudal lord's land. Except now the lord is a hoodie with a rock and a shitty attitude. Why would should middle classes work at all when they are forced to forfeit half of their money to people who don't?

Believe it or not but the government's job is to protect, not to provide.

Not my idea but I like it:

Quote from someone wrote this 2 years ago :

Ultimately Income Tax is fundamentally unfair - you have to pay the government for letting you work, to pay for public sector things you could afford privately if you didn't pay them and for people who don't work.

Even IF you don't accept that, you're still left with three completely unfair implementations. First, everyone pays the same rate so that the more you earn the more you pay (despite using the same amount of what it pays for). Second, variable rates so that the more you earn the more, proportionally, you pay (despite using the same amount of what it pays for). Third, a flat rate so that everyone pays exactly the same, so that low earners give more of the salary, propotionally, in tax. None are wholly fair (except possibly the last one - since the average person uses the same amount of public sector services paid for by income taxation as the next average person, they should pay the same - but it's completely impossible to implement or get through the Commons as no-one on NMW will possibly ever accept paying the exact same amount of income tax as Wayne ****ing Rooney).

So Income Tax as a concept is unfair and any implementation of it is fundamentally flawed. Which is why it shouldn't exist.

What should exist is a high sales tax (like we already have, as it happens) so that the more things people buy and use, the more they contribute to society. Ronaldo buys another Ferrari to replace the other one he smashed up? £35k into the Exchequer - and that pays for a Band 7 nurse for a year (which is another benefit - instead of being seen as rich, posing wankers, rich, posing wankers become benevolent philanthropists. After all, they chose to buy a Ferrari and pay a nurse's salary).


Of course, there's still issues there. For a start there are the standard sales tax dodges - but in the first few years, everyone has shitloads more money to buy things and doesn't bother trying to dodge it until their outgoings match their salary and it's all old hat. By which time they've paid for hunners more coppers and customs officers. Win. The bigger issue is whether sales tax alone covers HM Government spending - and then we enter the age-old argument of just what HM Government should be spending. Though a good place to start cutbacks would be hardcore porn for ministers' partners and 20% payrises for not turning up to work 3 days in 4...

Try this on for size...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... p;feature=player_embedded

Quote from menantoll :

If "The family shop" are paying less than 1% income tax then they are paying huge fees to the accountants who manage these savings for them (typically 25% of the amount of tax they saved). This doesn't mean the government wants this to happen though. It doesn't mean the government aren't fighting to stop it happening.

In every budget there are changes to close tax avoidance loopholes. These accountants earn way way more than MP's, HMRC tax experts etc. It's no wonder they win. What happens if HMRC offers silly salaries to attract these people though? You get outcries that a civil servant should never earn that much.

Sorry, I meant to put that as my family's shop. Currently it is below the 74k mark so we don't get to claim back VAT like a company earning over that does, because money is magnetic. It goes to other money. And the recent changes to company car tax mean we had to get rid of the company van. It was only 800 worth of Escort van (not my van, FYI), but the new tax rules on company vehicles mean you pay tax for what the vehicle was worth new, not it's current value. Thanks Tories, really helps.

The government won't be fighting too hard or they'll be hurting themselves. I realise the nation needs to jobs big companies bring to raise tax, but there you go. I have no objection to civil servants earning the money the market demands if they are doing an important job (like preventing massive loop holes), when it is a nothing job, they should get paid nothing in kind.

One of the interesting loop holes is uniforms. As a company owner if you have uniforms you can claim a tax break on cleaning expenses, but most companies (take almost at random, Co-Op) asks staff to clean their own uniforms. So Co-Op enjoys a tax break and the worker uses their wages to pay for it.

Quote from flymike91 :

so, like serfdom of old, people should spend half of their time working their land, and half of their time working the feudal lord's land. Except now the lord is a hoodie with a rock and a shitty attitude. Why would should middle classes work at all when they are forced to forfeit half of their money to people who don't?

Believe it or not but the government's job is to protect, not to provide.

That isn't a should as though it is my idea, that is a should as in the law states they should be paying 50% on any earnings over 200k. The money up to that point is only taxed at 20% like everyone earning 0-200k, it used to be 10% from 0-25k and 22% from 25,000.01 through to 200k, but Mr Gordon Brown dropped the 10% tax band to save the rest of the nation 2%. That really helped the poor out.

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

But the mega rich always find a way to get out of paying the tax the rest of us mortals have to.

Haha, if in UK only rich people don't pay taxes, in my country noone do, including me, because there is no point of paying them. The % of black/shadow economy officially/on paper is something about 38% but IRL its more than 60%, I bet. For example, many companies pays the lowest salary as possible officially, for their employees and other, biggest part of salary comes ''in envelope'' how we say here. Everyone who got LLC or another form of entrepreneurship, buys their car or another stuff on LLC's name, because then you can avoid Value Added Tax - if you are smart you can even buy some sorts of food like that and write them off like ''representation expenses for company''. Others buy petrol and diesel, as well as booze and cigarettes, from peoples who smuggles them over from Russia, again - to avoid VAT and Excise tax. Our country looks pretty poor ''on paper'' - in official statistics and other shit, but when in real life you everyday see parking lots of shopping malls, which are overflowed with new cars (and good ones, not some 1.2l korean shitboxes), private-house villages with big-ass houses that looks like manor's and other things, then you realize how big part of our economy is taken by shadow economy. If everything IRL would look like it looks ''on paper'', everyone here would live in caves and drive horse carriages.

Quote from menantoll :

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, Now I know you are just a looney. What do you think benefits are? Where do you think the money comes from to pay for those benefits? Taxes that the rich people pay?

Ever heard of tax avoidance? Its rife among big business in the UK, in case you hadn't noticed.

Quote from menantoll :

A typical example of not reading the words and missing out the ones that don't suit your agenda.

I've put the bold bit in so that you can't conveniently skip it this time.

The fact that they're even considering it seriously is worrying enough. Please don't fall for the reassuring political spin, just because he says hes considering whether it would be right means he probably wont consider to moral question of it at all, pretty much none of the big personalities in Westminster can be trusted, yet we let them abuse our trust repeatedly.

Well, this sums up the riot sitation ... oquently than I could...

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

Sorry, I meant to put that as my family's shop. Currently it is below the 74k mark so we don't get to claim back VAT like a company earning over that does, because money is magnetic. It goes to other money. And the recent changes to company car tax mean we had to get rid of the company van. It was only 800 worth of Escort van (not my van, FYI), but the new tax rules on company vehicles mean you pay tax for what the vehicle was worth new, not it's current value. Thanks Tories, really helps.

It was labour that changed the company car benefit rules not the Tories. Also I think you have either typed this out wrong or someone is giving you wrong advice.

An employee pays tax on the assumed benefit of being given a company car/van for his own personal use (this includes driving it to and from work). The benefit is worked out as a percentage of it's price when new. The percentage used is based on it's carbon emissions with adjustments for if it's a diesel. Edit: if it was a van given to an employee for personal use they would have been better off signing the van as a bonus. Then the emloyee would only pay tax on £800 of benefit

If the van is a company van that is used by anyone in the company only for company business then no one person pays tax to use it.

Can you guess what I do for a living yet?

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

The government won't be fighting too hard or they'll be hurting themselves. I realise the nation needs to jobs big companies bring to raise tax, but there you go. I have no objection to civil servants earning the money the market demands if they are doing an important job (like preventing massive loop holes), when it is a nothing job, they should get paid nothing in kind.

They fight harder than you think they do. The problem is the good accountants have always another loophole up their sleeves.

YOU may not have a problem with the market price being paid for the right man to do the right job but the daily mail etc has a bigger voice than you.

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

One of the interesting loop holes is uniforms. As a company owner if you have uniforms you can claim a tax break on cleaning expenses, but most companies (take almost at random, Co-Op) asks staff to clean their own uniforms. So Co-Op enjoys a tax break and the worker uses their wages to pay for it.

This is illegal, claiming a tax break on something you shouldn't. If you KNOW this is happening for sure. Then shop them. I doubt though that you have access to Co-op's tax return.

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

That isn't a should as though it is my idea, that is a should as in the law states they should be paying 50% on any earnings over 200k. The money up to that point is only taxed at 20% like everyone earning 0-200k, it used to be 10% from 0-25k and 22% from 25,000.01 through to 200k, but Mr Gordon Brown dropped the 10% tax band to save the rest of the nation 2%. That really helped the poor out.

Your figures are way out.

We pay no tax on the first £7475 we earn
We pay 20% on the next £35000
we pay 40% on the next £115000
we pay 50% on anything over that.

before Brown took the 10% away from April 2008

we paid no tax on the first £5225
we paid 10% on the first £2230
we paid 22% on the next £32370
we paid 40% on anything over that.

He changed it to

we paid no tax on the first £6035
we paid 20% on the next £34800
we paid 40% on anything over that.

After an out cry about the poor he changed the no tax bit to £6475 to make up for the bit that the poor lost on the 10% thing. (this was still not fair but I have typed enough)

source http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/it.htm

Quote from 5haz :

Ever heard of tax avoidance? Its rife among big business in the UK, in case you hadn't noticed.

Come on Shaz keep up, we've been discussing this for a few posts now.

Quote from 5haz :

...snip...Well, this sums up the riot sitation ... oquently than I could...

Ready for another belly laugh?


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah


and again


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


I read that yesterday or the day before. It was written for people like you and the very fact that you have posted it confirms all I thought about you and your posts.

Don't forget your tinfoil hat to stop the government mind radars.

Quote from menantoll :

Come on Shaz keep up, we've been discussing this for a few posts now.

Have any valid response to that though? No I didn't think so.

Quote from menantoll :

Ready for another belly laugh?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
and again
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
I read that yesterday or the day before. It was written for people like you and the very fact that you have posted it confirms all I thought about you and your posts.
Don't forget your tinfoil hat to stop the government mind radars.

You remind me of me, three years ago.

Its quite a big leap from restricting civil liberties to mind control radars, but that kind of subtlety is lost on flippant idiots like yourself.

If everyone is going to do nothing but rant and condemn, and nobody is willing to actually sit down and rat out the causes and think of ways to fix them, then how the **** are we ever going to prevent this kind of thing?

Instead we're swept up in a great big moral panic. Everyone's perfectly ready to complain about chavs, but nobody wants to actually put their thinking caps on and even begin to address how the chav phenomenon actually came about.

All I can say is fine **** you all then, but don't cry your eyes out when this happens again, these riots present the biggest missed opportunity to fix this country in living memory.