Quote from Dimitry Gerards :

And no offense, but some people just are 5 seconds off the pace. If everybody would be driving the same fast laptimes something is wrong... there's always more talented people out there. Unfortunately I'm not one of them myself, with a lot of hard work and hours of practise I should be able to get within and about 1 second of the fastest guys out there, but do not have the time for that... so I'm happy if I can be 2 or 3 seconds off-pace.

Welcome m8, great to see more Irish joining the LFS scene

Quote from Spinjack :

So, when I'm racing, regardless of car or track, I always seem to be 5 seconds off the pace of the front runner (except for Aston Club, where I'm only about 2-3 seconds off the pace). Major plateau. Any hints as to a good way to shave a second or two. Braking, corner entry, whatever. What is something key to concentrate on while driving that seems to do the most good?

I too am pretty average speed wise. I find that thinking "damn, how can i make up those 5 secs?" in a race just hinders my driving more than anything. I always do my pbs and consistent fast laps when im not thinking about it, and just enjoying the race. Its the same for me with qualifying, I rarely do pbs here as im thinking too hard about driving a fast lap. I always do a faster lap in the race than in qualifying.

A comfortable setup for your own style is also important. I cant make setups to save my life but i have gotten to know a few ppl who seem to like their car setup the way i do, and if asked nicley they will give the Set too me.

Quote from DratsaB :

Welcome m8, great to see more Irish joining the LFS scene

Thanks, but sorry for spoiling the excitement... I'm not actually Irish as my name suggests I'm dutch but have been living in Ireland for over 3 years now, 2 more years and I can apply for Irish citizenship eh?

Quote from Dimitry Gerards :

Thanks, but sorry for spoiling the excitement... I'm not actually Irish as my name suggests I'm dutch but have been living in Ireland for over 3 years now, 2 more years and I can apply for Irish citizenship eh?

3 years? Thats long enough to race under the Tricolour with pride . Your a paddy now, theres no excape

anyway back on topic

Quote from Dimitry Gerards :

And no offense, but some people just are 5 seconds off the pace. If everybody would be driving the same fast laptimes something is wrong... there's always more talented people out there. Unfortunately I'm not one of them myself, with a lot of hard work and hours of practise I should be able to get within and about 1 second of the fastest guys out there, but do not have the time for that... so I'm happy if I can be 2 or 3 seconds off-pace.

I'm normally 6s off the pace

Quote from 96 GTS :

Hehe, okay, that makes a little more sense. I've found they suit me fairly well, and that they're very easy to drive. They do seem to be better in the tin tops though, I can't say I like the FOX Race_S very much, it's stable, but slow.

I can't drive any setups apart from my own. I don't think I've ever just picked up a set and thought - yeah, that suits me better than my own. It's a constant source of frustration for me - see a bloke lapping a second a lap quicker than me, ask for his set, try it and I'm a second slower than with my own.

Quote from Becky Rose :

ok seriously, they just dont suite my driving style. In fact I thought everybody just ignored race_s setups, but I guess not.

I think a lot of it is which car/track combo you're using too. I just had a go on one of the bumpy south city tracks with Race_S in the LX6 and it was awful. Maybe it's alright for Blackwood or something, but not for South City... I have a feeling the setups are not consistant through all cars too. Some cars may have faster/slower or more/less stable Race_S setups than others.

Quote from Michael Denham :

I think a lot of it is which car/track combo you're using too. I just had a go on one of the bumpy south city tracks with Race_S in the LX6 and it was awful. Maybe it's alright for Blackwood or something, but not for South City... I have a feeling the setups are not consistant through all cars too. Some cars may have faster/slower or more/less stable Race_S setups than others.

You are definately right that tracks make a massive difference. For example, if a car oversteers ever so slightly on a grippy surface (probably about what you want) then on a less grippy tarmac it will oversteer like a pig. In addition, a more grippy surface will require more camber, stiffer spings and bars because there will be more suspension compression.

Also, you may require more oversteer on a tight twisty circuit and less on a fast open one.

So yeah - you need a setup for every track for each car really.

Quote from Spinjack :

so, would it be faster then to let the car take the 'wrong line' if I've set up a turn improperly (assuming that line doesn't take me off track) then to try to correct and bring the car back to where I originally wanted it to be?

if fixing your line would slow your speed down enough, then yes its safe to say that taking the "incorrect" line which may be faster than fixing it, would be much better in the end, than wasting precious speed to a small error which would only change a millisecond, but take off seconds if you try to fix it

The things that have helped me most in the past, in terms of making up lost time, are:

a) following a faster driver. I always seem to turn my PBs when I'm chasing after someone better than myself. of course, if you're 5sec off, you're going to lose them pretty quickly, so follow someone who's only a second or two a lap faster than you.

b) spectating onboard with a fast guy. drive as many laps as you need to in order to get a solid idea of where you routinely brake/what speeds you're pulling at certain points on the track/what gears you're using, then watch a fast guy and see what he's doing differently. it helps, of course, if you're using the same setup (particularly for the gears), but it should be a beneficial practice either way.

good luck!

Spinjack,

My advice is multi faceted and not the most popular in the comunity but it has served me well.

The first thing is to stop using other peoples sets, its fine to look at them and try them but to get the most out of the car it help to build your own and get to know how changes affect the handeling. With that knowlage you will know how to adjust a good or great set to suit you personal driving style and thus unlock more potential speed. Knowing the car, how it reacts and whats it limits are will help imensly.

The second thing is when you reach a point where you seem to not be getting faster, take a break, or switch to a different car, often times going back to the slower cars can help you learn better lines, or to more unstable cars to work on your control. This has led to major improvemnts in my times now and again.

Lastly, you don't nessasarily need to be the fastest car on the track to win or have a good time. I often better my times when I on in the middle of a race either chasing or being chased. Some time you have to stop trying to be fast and just try and race and improvment will just happen.

One last thing I almost forgot. Experiment with different lines & learn to drive the slower lines through corners. Many of the racers here are fast when alone but in a pack where they may not be able to drive the perfect line, they are slow or unable cope. i have seen it time and time again, racing with faster drivers that when limited in thier drivign line they fold and enter too fast, or brake at the wrong point, etc.

Just keep at it.

Wow. Lots of respnses. Thanks, everyone, for the input. Let me see if I can answer all teh questions.

I'm using a WR set because when I asked for a good set, that's what was sent to me. It was chance rather than intentional. But, as it turns out, the WR set complimented my driving style and I am very happy with it. However, having said that, the WR set that I really like on the Aston track, though a bit faster on Blackwood than my Blackwood set, but not as comfortable to drive there. One thing about WR sets is that I know its not the setup that is causing problems, but driver skill (assuming I can drive the WR set).

I'll save a replay and post it the next time I race (probably Saturday or Sunday).

I do use a Logitech Momo wheel as the controller. There are some settings that I set to zero based upon recommendations in this forum (can't remember what they were right now).

I think one mistake I'm making is turning in too early. I'm often still slowing after the apex and am unable to get on the gas until late in teh turn. I didn't worry about it too much because many of the fast drivers I spectate were doing similar things.

Thanks for the Save proceedure, 96_GTS.

I usually use sets given to me because I suck at doing my own sets. However, I will tweak them a bit to better match my own driving style. I would like to get better at doing my own sets, but that's for another thread.

I do spectate and shadow faster drivers, and that usually does help.

Also, to Gimpster's point, I usually find that I can finish fairly close to the top just by keeping out of trouble. I'll often place higher than drivers that have fast laps that are 1-2 seconds faster than me. By racing clean and consistent, I do pretty well.

Thanks agains for the input. Good stuff. Plenty to think about. Now i just need to put it into practice.

There are lots of factors you have to take care when racing, as far as i belive driving through the ideal line is the most important one, then braking points and turn in points, taking care of your tires is important too, you can be very fast for two laps but making your tires overheat.

One thing I do when I want to improve in a track is to use R3 tyres and 100% of fuel, then drive for some laps trying to find the way to go out of the corners the fastest I can, so when I use less fuel I can handle the car much more easier.

A common mistake is to turn in too early, you could try to brake about a third of a second earlier that you usually do, then brake in a straight line parallel to the outside side of the track, release brakes and turn in when you feel that the car can make the sharpest turn and change direction to the inside of the track, as you reach the apex press the gas pedal. This isn't the best way to take the corners, but if you don't master your braking skills it's the easiest way to learn, take your time to do every thing separated the first time, if you try to do everything at once you'll surely fail.

an analytical approach would be to use F1 Perfview or analyse for speed (links also provided on the liveforspeed site). With those, you can take a WR replay, save the telemetry and do the same for your own hotlap. Then you load the telemetry files into the analysers and you can see the two laps side by side in every datail and exactly see, where you loose the time.

It wont make you faster immediately, just a little inaccuracy cost tenths of seconds and it all adds up to a few or more seconds depending on the length of the track. so it is pretty easy to find out why you loose time but really hard to change your driving.

Good luck!

There is some sound advice here. i have found similar issues getting to 107% of WR in hotlapping or qually situations. In the races I have I've found that other drivers regularly get thier best time in a one lap special. I simply cannot commit on a single lap so generally get a poor grid slot, only to find that my race pace is good enough to move me up several places. If you are consistantly able to get a lap time then you are ready to learn about car setups. Start reading the forums for setup advice and pick a car to tune, when you get a car dialled in to your unique style I'm sure your lap time will come down a bundle. Then you'll need to re-learn where the limits are and do it again, and again and again.

Consistancy wins the championship, luck/bravery might get you a fast lap but it is unlikely to win a race.

Am I the only one to switch between sims to check how my performance improves? I tried GPL recenly and smashed my records for Spa and Watkins Glen, still not WR or anything but taking chunks out of my old times that were damn hard to repeat at the time.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Avoid WR sets and never use a Race_S set. As a general rule setups dont make a damn of difference to the average driver, they are for finding up to about half a second but if you are 5 seconds off then you need something driveable. Find one setup that handles the way you like it then just adjust the gear ratios and downforce to each track - this will server you better than the edgy - to the limit - WR sets.

Well when I´m too lazy (or when I don´t have the time) to make my own setup for a specific car/track combo then I take a WR set from Inferno. I´m not using it as it is, I change some things as most sets on Inferno are unstable. When you know what to change then you can use the WR setups as a base.

My biggest problem is gear ratios.

I usually have no problems getting my handling tailored to my own driving style, but I know I lose a lot of time because I have no idea how to set up gear ratios.
I have the Floating Widget GRC and confused the hell out of myself with it I thought I'd got a good gear setup and then when I tried it I somehow managed to lose both acceleration AND speed!

Quote from Dajmin :

My biggest problem is gear ratios.

I usually have no problems getting my handling tailored to my own driving style, but I know I lose a lot of time because I have no idea how to set up gear ratios.
I have the Floating Widget GRC and confused the hell out of myself with it I thought I'd got a good gear setup and then when I tried it I somehow managed to lose both acceleration AND speed!

Try using F1PerfView to look at the speed trace. Compare with a WR lap and you'll see if you are losing accelaration by the steepness of the curve. Adjust ratios - look again. Or just set up a dead straight autocross layout and do some drag tests.

Quote from yegadoyai :

Am I the only one to switch between sims to check how my performance improves? I tried GPL recenly and smashed my records for Spa and Watkins Glen, still not WR or anything but taking chunks out of my old times that were damn hard to repeat at the time.

I noticed the same thing. I started getting frustrated with LFS so I swtiched to GTR for a while. I didn't like the game play as much (to much practice and qualifying just to have everyone leave the race after the typical T1 pileup) so I eventually switched back to LFS. I was immediately faster in LFS than I was before my stint with GTR.

Here is a replay of a Blackwood race from last night on Redline. Its a bit ugly. I didn't have time for more than 1 race and only had about 4 warmup laps, but maybe you guys can see some specific trouble areas. I haven't looked at it myself yet (no time), but I would appreciate any critiques.

Brutal honesty is appreciated. Insults are not.

Thanks

Some things that help me. Look ahead. Look where you want to go, not where you are going. When you look ahead, your car will go there. For example, you are in turn 2, you should be looking up ahead at the straight where you want to end up at, not at the apex when you are already there.

Don't pay attention to lap times or what everyone else is running. Race the track. And remember, you are not racing the lead/fastest car. At any point in the race, you are only racing the guy in front of you and the guy behind you. The only time you are racing the leader is when you are in 2nd place. Realize this and it helps alot.

You need to be aware of where others are, but that is not where your concentration should be. It takes time and comes naturally eventually. This is when you are able to race door to door with others without constantly looking to see where they are.

Quote from mrodgers :

Some things that help me. Look ahead. Look where you want to go, not where you are going. When you look ahead, your car will go there. For example, you are in turn 2, you should be looking up ahead at the straight where you want to end up at, not at the apex when you are already there.

Yeah, that is probably something I could be better about doing.

Quote :

Don't pay attention to lap times or what everyone else is running. Race the track. And remember, you are not racing the lead/fastest car. At any point in the race, you are only racing the guy in front of you and the guy behind you. The only time you are racing the leader is when you are in 2nd place. Realize this and it helps alot.

This I already do, and I agree that it helps. I worry only about catching the car in front of me. Once I make the pass I forget about that guy and work to catch the next car.

Quote :

You need to be aware of where others are, but that is not where your concentration should be. It takes time and comes naturally eventually. This is when you are able to race door to door with others without constantly looking to see where they are.

Agreed.

These two threads have some excellent advice in them

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=5523
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=8674

Quote from mrodgers :

Some things that help me. Look ahead. Look where you want to go, not where you are going.
<snip>

Spoken like a true rider.

For others not aware, this is the common wisdom given to all motorcyclists and should also probably be given to car drivers as well. The idea is that you will go where you are looking, so if you're looking at the wall, you'll hit the wall. Of course, the effect is much more pronounced on motorcycles since you are more closely tied to the machine than in a car, but it still holds true.

From the replay I think it's mostly just that you arn't using the full width of the track making the turns shaper than they need to be.
Also from you speeds on the straight I think you could get away with less downforce.

It might be better to practice on a quieter server. With fox at blackwood on a busy server there are usually cars everywhere. If you are constantly dodging stuff it's hard to work on you lap times.

Nice to see the Redline evo bloke prove once again that you shouldn't drive and admin at the same time.

Quote from Forbin :

Spoken like a true rider.

For others not aware, this is the common wisdom given to all motorcyclists and should also probably be given to car drivers as well. The idea is that you will go where you are looking, so if you're looking at the wall, you'll hit the wall. Of course, the effect is much more pronounced on motorcycles since you are more closely tied to the machine than in a car, but it still holds true.

Mountain biking as well. That's probably the single biggest thing that helps new mountain bikers.