Quote from Rappa Z :

Could someone please explain to me what the hell is going on? You guys make it sounds like Red Bull is going to deliberately hinder Vettel's attempt to win the championship, which is completely ridiculous (IMO) because winning is everything.

RB consider the Constructors Championship first, and Vettel risked 43 points for them with his petulance.

At this stage of the season, the Drivers Championship could go to anyone.
If it were later in the season and Webber was not really in the running, then it would be understandable for them to instruct him to let Vettel pass.

The thing is, I understand Red Bull being mad because he risked the points when they are perfectly happy with any 1-2 finish. Still, I don't see how you could expect Red Bull to start favoring Webber or trying to hurt Vettel. The team needs to score points. Wins score the most points. Vettel typically wins more races. Hurting Vettel's chances of winning means they hurt their own chances of winning. Are they really going to risk the CWC for a grudge? I bet Vettel's just going to get a slap on the wrists behind closed doors and that'll be the end of this. Maybe they won't let him steal Webber's parts anymore either.

Also, IMO I don't think this is really about Vettel not respecting Red Bull as it is Vettel not respecting Webber.

Quote from Rappa Z :

The thing is, I understand Red Bull being mad because he risked the points when they are perfectly happy with any 1-2 finish. Still, I don't see how you could expect Red Bull to start favoring Webber or trying to hurt Vettel. The team needs to score points. Wins score the most points. Vettel typically wins more races. Hurting Vettel's chances of winning means they hurt their own chances of winning. Are they really going to risk the CWC for a grudge? I bet Vettel's just going to get a slap on the wrists behind closed doors and that'll be the end of this.

Also, IMO I don't think this is really about Vettel not respecting Red Bull as it is Vettel not respecting Webber.

If you just had your management position completely undermined by one of your own employees who put the whole business model in jeopardy you'd just let them off? it's irrelevant what the end result was because you have processes and risk management for a reason. That reason being to increase one's chances of success. Vettel did the exact opposite of maximising risk management for success.

If that goes unpunished, and it probably will, then Horner's position is totally undermined as is the rest of the F1 team. RedBull could have ANY driver on the grid if they wanted and still succeed. vettel couldn't succeed in any other car. The balance of power SHOULD be in RBR's hands, NOT Vettel's.

What Vettel did was basically out of order, etc. But, Webber has absolutely no right to be as much of a bitch as he's being, seems like he conveniently forgot about Silverstone 2011.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93033

Quote :

The Australian engulfed his Red Bull team in fresh controversy at Silverstone after ignoring repeated instructions to hold position behind Vettel until the end of the race.

...

"The team radioed me about four times, asking that I maintain the gap to Seb," explained Webber. "But I wasn't happy with that because you should never give up in Formula 1, so I continued to push. If Fernando had retired on the last lap, we would have been battling for the lead.

How is what Vettel did yesterday any different to that?

I agree he should, under typical circumstances, be punished, but Vettel is hardly the typical case. Most drivers would get a good kick in the ass. Vettel won't though, he bought a get out of jail free ticket with 3 DWCs. They can't afford to get rid of him (yet).

Quote from Rappa Z :

I agree he should, under typical circumstances, be punished, but Vettel is hardly the typical case. Most drivers would get a good kick in the ass. Vettel won't though, he bought a get out of jail free ticket with 3 DWCs. They can't afford to get rid of him (yet).

Yes they can, they won't, but they can. Kimi, Hamilton, Alonso, Rosberg etc... all would deliver championships in that car. Ask Horner - loose Newey or Vettel? we all know who he would drop in a flash.

Can they really pick up another top-tier driver mid season? I mean, I doubt the other teams are willing to just give up their drivers to a competitor.

Yes, they can try to make changes at the end of the season, but that's still months away. Hence why I say they can't off Vettel just yet.

Quote from IsaacPrice :

Are you an idiot?

Are you an idiot?

Quote from IsaacPrice :

It costs them money to put the cars on the grid and at the end of the day just because we the fans don't like it, doesn't change their job description blah blah

If there were no spectators there would be no money.

Quote from IsaacPrice :

it's not even "the fans" who don't like it, it's just the uneducated fans who don't even really understand what F1 is and always has been who don't like it.

So you enjoy the part of the race where nobody's actually racing? The bit where they all turn the engines down and drive around pointlessly for half an hour?

I get the impression the 'real' fans are a bunch of ****ing idiots who are more concerned with being serious enough fans of something than they are about anything else.

If Webber leaves mid-season he's a hypocrite crying bitch. Sure he got shafted yesterday, but it's not like he's not ignored team orders before, it just so happens he wasn't good enough to make it stick.

Quote from Rappa Z :

Can they really pick up another top-tier driver mid season? I mean, I doubt the other teams are willing to just give up their drivers to a competitor.

Yes, they can try to make changes at the end of the season, but that's still months away. Hence why I say they can't off Vettel just yet.

This is what I was on about in my previous post.

If Webber decides to just retire, they will be probably be stuck with a driver who is less able to assist them win another constructors championship.

Quote from DeKo :

What Vettel did was basically out of order, etc. But, Webber has absolutely no right to be as much of a bitch as he's being, seems like he conveniently forgot about Silverstone 2011.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93033



How is what Vettel did yesterday any different to that?

Oh god, Webber is shooting his own foot. Massive facepalm.

Quote from Rappa Z :

Can they really pick up another top-tier driver mid season? I mean, I doubt the other teams are willing to just give up their drivers to a competitor.

Yes, they can try to make changes at the end of the season, but that's still months away. Hence why I say they can't off Vettel just yet.

Mid season, no but they could atleast replace him with a seasoned STR driver for the rest of the year, sure they probably wont win a WDC but the constructors would still be possible and then they can hire who they wish after, Kimi for example would be a driver who would take it in a heartbeat and the team structure would suit him.

There is certainly an element of hypocrisy here from Webber BUT

What the problem is with what happened yesterday is that RBR heavily restricted the pace of Webber's car under the assumption Vettel would do that same (I don't think that is what happened in 2011 with Webber). I think what we saw was more akin to Button Vs Hamilton 2012 turkey (with less team orders on Button's side than vettel). Vettel however exploited the teams decision to turn down Webber's car for his own gain, and he was fully aware of this point. That's the crux of the issue. From a management point of view that's unforgivable.

Irrelevant to what Webber did in the past, this is a massive breach of the command structure at RBR.

Quote from N I K I :

Oh god, Webber is shooting his own foot. Massive facepalm.

Difference was, Redbull had a massive points advantage by this point.

It was half way through the season not the second race.

There was less points at risk.

Redbull do not currently know there position in this years championship yet so every point is much more critical.

Sounds slightly hypicritical from looking at it 2 years after it happened but webber is not saying that now is he and the whole dynamic of the championship ia different, also i would assume redbull would of had a big brief on all this which is why it happening again is much more serious.

You know what's really hypocritical? We used to rail against team orders (Germany 2010) and now here we are berating someone for violating the orders and making racing competitive.

Quote from Rappa Z :

You know what's really hypocritical? We used to rail against team orders (Germany 2010) and now here we are berating someone for violating the orders and making racing competitive.

Well the difference being this is team orders for the contructors not Drivers.

Constructors must always be priority as its the Bread and butter for the teams, when a driver puts this at risk its more serious, especially at the start of the season, when teams are still figuring out where they stand.

Still, we should be celebrating the fact that there was actually a pass in F1.

Quote from Rappa Z :

You know what's really hypocritical? We used to rail against team orders (Germany 2010) and now here we are berating someone for violating the orders and making racing competitive.

team orders were illegal back then. What Alonso did was technically breaking the rules.... I think many understood Ferrari's stance however.

Quote from IsaacPrice :

Well its aerodynamic importance played zero part in why it was the wrong decision. Infact, it actually had the opposite effect as if it didnt fail the laptime gain wasnt enough to make stopping worthwhile. The problem was it broke and caused him to DNF so I guess youre just trolling, like usual. All he can do is say whether the laptime loss is worse than the penalty for pitting and then pitting again in a few laps. In terms of the call to pit if there is a safety risk, thats the teams decision, theyre the 1 who can see the loading, the tv screens etc. Obviously the mistake to break his own front wing was his fault though and small things like that can decide championships. But I'm sure Vettel, Hamilton or Raikkonen have never made mistakes in their formula 1 careers so clearly Alonso is a danger to other drivers, a complete moron who shouldnt be compared to true greats like them

What do you expect, it's CSF he's a Schumacher fan. What does he know about good racecraft?


And also in relation to 2011 at least Webber made it clear he wasn't going to settle. Rather than Vettel waiting til the last stint to stab Mark and his team in the back.

Quote from Rappa Z :

You know what's really hypocritical? We used to rail against team orders (Germany 2010) and now here we are berating someone for violating the orders and making racing competitive.

You don't seam very well edjucated in race strategies. You've forgot that Webber was 4-5sec ahead before pitstop/engine. It wasn't a fair fight. Try fighting someone stronger with 1 hand tied on your back, surely not gonna work out for you. It's admirable that he didn't shub Vettel of the road in that T3 pass considering the whole situation!

Quote from BlueFlame :

What do you expect, it's CSF he's a Schumacher fan. What does he know about good racecraft?

I certainly know that wasn't great racecraft from Fernando yesterday.

Quote from N I K I :

You don't seam very well edjucated in race strategies. You've forgot that Webber was 4-5sec ahead before pitstop/engine. It wasn't a fair fight. Try fighting someone stronger with 1 hand tied on your back, surely not gonna work out for you. It's admirable that he didn't shub Vettel of the road in that T3 pass considering the whole situation!

True, because I didn't actually get to see the race (4:30 am, not going to happen). What I'm going off of is one shite quality 2 minute video and whatever was already said here.

Quote from CSF :

I certainly know that wasn't great racecraft from Fernando yesterday.

It was a mistake you mong, not like Schumacher putting people out of the race on purpose.

Quote from BlueFlame :

It was a mistake you mong, not like Schumacher putting people out of the race on purpose.

Nah he did it on purpose didn't he.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykG06ixh92c

Didn't see this in Sky or BBC coverage Incredibly stupid from Webber, despite what happened.