that just means that webber is the slower worse driver
which is something we already knew anyway

Quote from Shotglass :

2011 British Grand Prix - Webber listened to team orders not to pass Vettel, and stayed behind, although did show he was quicker

ftfy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/spo ... rders-at-Silverstone.html


The similarity is amazing, the difference is Mark didn't make it.

I don't mind that Vettel did it.. .. the team probably should or there's not much point in them asking. Vettel has proven that he can't pass his team-mate cleanly every time, so you can understand their concern.
What annoys me is his crocodile tears afterwards. "Wahh I'm so sad that I did it, it doesn't feel like a win, I regret it, it was a mistake". Balls. If you have 20 minutes to continue to contemplate your decision, whilst leading a race after making a quite sternly defended overtake against the instructions of your team, at least have the guts to stand by your decision, don't turn on the puppy dog face and pretend it was a brief moment of madness.

Quote from sinbad :

I don't mind that Vettel did it.. .. the team probably should or there's not much point in them asking. Vettel has proven that he can't pass his team-mate cleanly every time, so you can understand their concern.
What annoys me is his crocodile tears afterwards. "Wahh I'm so sad that I did it, it doesn't feel like a win, I regret it, it was a mistake". Balls. If you have 20 minutes to continue to contemplate your decision, whilst leading a race after making a quite sternly defended overtake against the instructions of your team, at least have the guts to stand by your decision, don't turn on the puppy dog face and pretend it was a brief moment of madness.

It's almost what the post race podiums are made for. It's far better than after PR have got to them, still coming out and claiming it was the drivers call to move over. Raw confused emotion. Brilliant.

As a fan, I don't care that he disobeyed team orders. I care that it wasn't a fair fight.

Two teammates both taking themselves and their cars to the max while racing each other is pure spectator gold. Overtaking a teammate who has gone to eco mode because he's been told the race is over is lame.

But I guess in the future when RB will have a 1-2, neither will take it easy regardless of what the team tells them so we might see some actual racing.

Quote from sinbad :

What annoys me is his crocodile tears afterwards. "Wahh I'm so sad that I did it, it doesn't feel like a win, I regret it, it was a mistake". Balls. If you have 20 minutes to continue to contemplate your decision, whilst leading a race after making a quite sternly defended overtake against the instructions of your team, at least have the guts to stand by your decision, don't turn on the puppy dog face and pretend it was a brief moment of madness.

+1000 to that!

Hopefully Vettel will grow a spine strong enough to back his desire to win races. At 25 years of age, there is still time for that.

Quote from samjh :

Hopefully Vettel will grow a spine strong enough

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1- ... chequered-flag-mika-salo/

Even the best follow team orders.

Quote from BlueFlame :

I doubt it, he wants to be just like Michael! MICHAEL I LOVE YOU!

He'll never be even close to Michael. He can win 10 WDC or whatever. Schumi didn't get a dominating car under his arse, he actually had a big role in the progress of developing the car to be dominating. Vettel just got it and it's ****ing not the same. I doubt Vettel has like 10% of Schumi's knowledge of - let's say - setting the car up and recommending modifications. When he wins from last position and drives in the rain like Michael did, then we may start talking about that.

Schumi was not a saint either, but comparing Vettel with him is goddamn ridiculous. Not even close and will never be.

/inb4 MSC haters

E: oh, ninja edit

Salo was hardly "the best".

I don't recall Schumacher ever disobeying any team orders (I recall him playing the team role for Irvine in 1999) so this wasn't Vettel trying to be like him. This is on a whole new level. Schumi integrated himself within the team to help dictate the direction of orders, but I don't ever recall him ever thinking he was above the guys on the on the pit wall. I just don't think Schumacher was THAT arrogant as to disobey team orders.

And yes it would be nice to see Vettel in a car not designed by a freakin' genius. But I guess it's easier for Vettel to take the easy route. it's a shame because it would be nice to see how he compares against a decent team mate in an average car.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Salo was hardly "the best".

That's my point. nor is Vettel.

BTW To say Schumacher didn't have a dominant car is true for the majority of his WDC's but not all of them. I despise Schumacher, as I'm sure you're all well aware but even I rate Schumacher 10x more than I rate Vettel.

Quote from Intrepid :

And yes it would be nice to see Vettel in a car not designed by a freakin' genius. But I guess it's easier for Vettel to take the easy route. it's a shame because it would be nice to see how he compares against a decent team mate in an average car.

Thing is, this is probably Newey's first consistent period since the early 90's. The vast majority of his McLaren's were utter disasters, as were his first two Red Bulls. He really didn't have a handle on the latter pre 2009 era car packages. When he's good, he's good, but when he's bad he's utterly stinking. Due a stinker with the new rules I suspect.

Quote from CSF :

The vast majority of his McLaren's were utter disasters,

Vast majority?

The majority of McLaren's pre-2007 poor form were due to reliablity not because the car was slow.

Utter disaster? I think not.

Quote from BlueFlame :

Vast majority?

The majority of McLaren's pre-2007 poor form were due to reliablity not because the car was slow.

Utter disaster? I think not.

I think McLaren's unreliability is overstated because of the 2005 car. That was the only genuinely quick car they produced between 2001 and 2006.

2001 was good in phases, but had an inherent design flaw with the front wing that meant they were third best at a fair number of tracks.

2002 awfuly slow car, well of Ferrari and Williams.

2003 Newey's car never raced, an unmitigated failure on grand scale. MP4-17D was the most consistent car, but was not an Adrian Newey car.

2004 Terrible car for pretty much the whole season.

2005 - Best car speed wise, but not the best package

2006 - Third best, occasionally behind others too.

2007 Red Bull - Middle of the midfield.

2008 Red Bull - Probably the worst Red Bull since they took over from Jaguar.

So, yes, Newey produced one World beater between 2001 and 2008.

Quote from CSF :

I think McLaren's unreliability is overstated because of the 2005 car. That was the only genuinely quick car they produced between 2001 and 2006.

2001 was good in phases, but had an inherent design flaw with the front wing that meant they were third best at a fair number of tracks.

2002 awfuly slow car, well of Ferrari and Williams.

2003 Newey's car never raced, an unmitigated failure on grand scale. MP4-17D was the most consistent car, but was not an Adrian Newey car.

2004 Terrible car for pretty much the whole season.

2005 - Best car speed wise, but not the best package

2006 - Third best, occasionally behind others too.

2007 Red Bull - Middle of the midfield.

2008 Red Bull - Probably the worst Red Bull since they took over from Jaguar.

So, yes, Newey produced one World beater between 2001 and 2008.

Well we can argue all the day about that but since 2009 Vettel has enjoyed at worst the 'equal best' car on the grid. In retrospect he may have blown the 2009 title too. Unless we see him out of RedBull, or up against a decent team-mate there'll always be doubts. I must add that these doubts are irrelevant as championships are what really count.

But RedBull are protecting him, because they could have had Hamilton this year. But they didn't want to upset their little baby and kept Webber, someone who they know he can easily beat.

I'd argue his season at Toro Rosso in 2008 was very good...

Seeing a driver in a bad car often doesn't teach us much. If the car's a stinker its a stinker. Look at 2009, Lewis didn't really do much that season until the B spec car in Germany and his head was suddenly up.

CSF you retard.

The 2004 car was the only one that was a 'disaster' but it still won a race.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_Grand_Prix_results


Check your facts before you start to spew bs just because you hate everything and everyone in F1 because your sugar daddy Schumacher isn't in the sport anymore cos he's past it.

Quote from BlueFlame :

CSF you retard.

The 2004 car was the only one that was a 'disaster' but it still won a race.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_Grand_Prix_results


Check your facts before you start to spew bs just because you hate everything and everyone in F1 because your sugar daddy Schumacher isn't in the sport anymore cos he's past it.

Thank you failflame, I'm aware it won a race, that was the B car which was introduced at the French Grand Prix. It still wasn't a world beater.

Quote from CSF :

Thank you failflame, I'm aware it won a race, that was the B car which was introduced at the French Grand Prix. It still wasn't a world beater.

You're really clutching at straws. Apparently they were all disasters a minute ago.

I don't see where I've changed my opinion. The 2002 car won a race, but that doesn't mean it wasn't slow.

Relative to Ferrari, everything was slow in 2002.

Quote from CSF :

The 2002 car won a race, but that doesn't mean it wasn't slow.

Erm.......... Congrats, you contradicted yourself in one sentence.

So the 2003 Jordan was a fast car was it?

Quote from Rappa Z :

Relative to Ferrari, everything was slow in 2002.

Williams were pretty close on several occasions, but were hampered by high tyre wear/BMW grenades.

Quote from BlueFlame :

Erm.......... Congrats, you contradicted yourself in one sentence.

He didn't, unless you're thinking that Williams had a fast car last year.